BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
GTB Performance
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-27-2006, 06:09 AM   #1
MisterBMW
Private First Class
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Asia

Posts: 167
iTrader: (0)

Will new ///M3 be able to out run a tuned 335 ?

While much guessing of the new M3's V8 power had been taking place all over, everything is still just a big "?" at this stage.

However, we know that tuning of the 335 power had been going on with some serious work especially by Vishnu.

What would make one buy the M3 then
MisterBMW is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-27-2006, 08:49 AM   #2
Smoltz
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 04 Challenge Stradale + 02 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Live Free or Die

Posts: 464
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterBMW View Post
While much guessing of the new M3's V8 power had been taking place all over, everything is still just a big "?" at this stage.

However, we know that tuning of the 335 power had been going on with some serious work especially by Vishnu.

What would make one buy the M3 then
There is more to a car than just straight line performance.

-Adam
Smoltz is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-27-2006, 08:56 AM   #3
skierman64
Brigadier General
 
skierman64's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 E92 Space Gray M3 & E36M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Greater St Louis Metro area

Posts: 3,068
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
1998 M3 Coupe  [0.00]
2008 M3 Coupe  [0.00]
Send a message via Yahoo to skierman64
Why I want a M3

Some folks don't like to make serious modifications to an already great car. I want my car to be fast right off the showroom floor. I can guarantee the M3 will be faster right out of the showroom. I personnally don't care if some dude spends $15-20k on his 335 to make it faster than my M3. I know my M3 is still covered under factory warranty, will probably be less of a maintenance headache (than some finely tuned turbo car), and will probably last longer 150K + miles. Plus, I will still be faster on a road course in my M3.
skierman64 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-27-2006, 09:35 AM   #4
devo
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: .2GT3/335Cpe/991 GT3 coming
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: thinking about cars, girls and money, not necessarily in that order.

Posts: 1,942
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterBMW View Post
While much guessing of the new M3's V8 power had been taking place all over, everything is still just a big "?" at this stage.

However, we know that tuning of the 335 power had been going on with some serious work especially by Vishnu.

What would make one buy the M3 then
You're going to spend at least as much, if not more than an M, and have far less of an all around performance car with a terrible resale AND limited or no warranty. Geez, why would someone buy an M over that?
devo is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-27-2006, 12:41 PM   #5
JEllis
Brigadier General
 
JEllis's Avatar
 
Drives: E36 M3, E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SD CA/Yuma

Posts: 4,674
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Some folks don't like to make serious modifications to an already great car. I want my car to be fast right off the showroom floor. I can guarantee the M3 will be faster right out of the showroom. I personnally don't care if some dude spends $15-20k on his 335 to make it faster than my M3. I know my M3 is still covered under factory warranty, will probably be less of a maintenance headache (than some finely tuned turbo car), and will probably last longer 150K + miles. Plus, I will still be faster on a road course in my M3.
I am thinking 3k-5k is going to give you one hell of fast 335 given that Xede tuned 335's are doing 0-60 in the low 4's and 0-100 around 10 sec. For the street only its going to be hard to deny the 335 may be a better route for the guy that doesnt mind a tuned car and no warrenty.

I would rather have an M but if the price is wrong then it looks like I will be waiting for the 335 M sport with a Xede or at that point a Dinan tune to chase down Porsche's with.

Jason
JEllis is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-27-2006, 01:47 PM   #6
John
Captain
 
John's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 325i
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Long Island, NY

Posts: 952
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to John
too early to tell!
John is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-27-2006, 02:24 PM   #7
Last E92 M3
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: BMW M3
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Virginia

Posts: 1,507
iTrader: (0)

needless to say, it's different than moded 3 series.
too much to write all the reason why i'd take M over 3 series.

bottom line, M is different.
Last E92 M3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-27-2006, 04:07 PM   #8
Hans Delbruck
BMW & MB - friends in my garage
 
Hans Delbruck's Avatar
 
Drives: C63, 135i, 1959 BUICK
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Huntington Beach, CA

Posts: 1,285
iTrader: (0)

It doesn't bother me if a tuned 335i can run with the new M3. Would you rather be driving an M3 or a tuned 335i? If the answer isn't clear, go ahead and get the 335i... save some $$
Hans Delbruck is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-27-2006, 05:10 PM   #9
kyotousa
Banned
 
Drives: Acura TSX
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: TX

Posts: 168
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
Some folks don't like to make serious modifications to an already great car. I want my car to be fast right off the showroom floor. I can guarantee the M3 will be faster right out of the showroom. I personnally don't care if some dude spends $15-20k on his 335 to make it faster than my M3. I know my M3 is still covered under factory warranty, will probably be less of a maintenance headache (than some finely tuned turbo car), and will probably last longer 150K + miles. Plus, I will still be faster on a road course in my M3.
the thing is....it won't take 15-20k...you'll be able to do it with tuned ECU
which is like 1-2k...

if that's not enough.....push 335's turbo
hopefully....M3 won't be beat that easily

Alas...I hope the price won't shock me hahaha
kyotousa is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-27-2006, 08:51 PM   #10
devo
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: .2GT3/335Cpe/991 GT3 coming
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: thinking about cars, girls and money, not necessarily in that order.

Posts: 1,942
iTrader: (0)

[quote=JEllis;173500]I am thinking 3k-5k is going to give you one hell of fast 335 given that Xede tuned 335's are doing 0-60 in the low 4's and 0-100 around 10 sec. For the street only its going to be hard to deny the 335 may be a better route for the guy that doesnt mind a tuned car and no warrenty.

I would rather have an M but if the price is wrong then it looks like I will be waiting for the 335 M sport with a Xede or at that point a Dinan tune to chase down Porsche's with.

Jason[/QUOTE

It surely won't be chasing down the 997 turbo Porsches.
devo is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-27-2006, 09:06 PM   #11
devo
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: .2GT3/335Cpe/991 GT3 coming
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: thinking about cars, girls and money, not necessarily in that order.

Posts: 1,942
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyotousa View Post
the thing is....it won't take 15-20k...you'll be able to do it with tuned ECU
which is like 1-2k...

if that's not enough.....push 335's turbo
hopefully....M3 won't be beat that easily

Alas...I hope the price won't shock me hahaha

Go with what works for you. But, really, compare apples to apples. It's fair to say (guess) that the price disparity will be about $15k +/- for an equally equipped car.

300 BHP compared to 425 ish BHP, and similar weight. The M car will also have better brakes, suspension, trans., clutch, increased coolant and oil abilities, a much more aggressive stance and a better resale; not to mention badge recognition. Shall I go on?

Lastly, there's no way a $2-3k ECU upgrade is going to yield 425 BHP. To get that kind of power you are going to have to invest much more. Remember whatever addtional HP you that you believe is lurking @ the rear wheels is also @ the M's rear wheels.
devo is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-27-2006, 10:35 PM   #12
skierman64
Brigadier General
 
skierman64's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 E92 Space Gray M3 & E36M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Greater St Louis Metro area

Posts: 3,068
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
1998 M3 Coupe  [0.00]
2008 M3 Coupe  [0.00]
Send a message via Yahoo to skierman64
To each his own

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
I am thinking 3k-5k is going to give you one hell of fast 335 given that Xede tuned 335's are doing 0-60 in the low 4's and 0-100 around 10 sec. For the street only its going to be hard to deny the 335 may be a better route for the guy that doesnt mind a tuned car and no warrenty.
Jason
In my mind BMWs aren't about straight line speed. It's the whole package that makes a BMW a BMW, to include acceleration, braking, and handling (just to name a few). I really don't care if some dude in a 335 can beat me off the line, because unless he's poored some serious dough into his car (and voided his warranty), I'm going to beat him at a real racetrack, that's the kind with multiple left and right corners with my stock M3.
skierman64 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-28-2006, 01:57 AM   #13
JEllis
Brigadier General
 
JEllis's Avatar
 
Drives: E36 M3, E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SD CA/Yuma

Posts: 4,674
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
n my mind BMWs aren't about straight line speed. It's the whole package that makes a BMW a BMW, to include acceleration, braking, and handling (just to name a few). I really don't care if some dude in a 335 can beat me off the line, because unless he's poored some serious dough into his car (and voided his warranty), I'm going to beat him at a real racetrack, that's the kind with multiple left and right corners with my stock M3.
Hey, I love my E36 M3 and I understand where you are coming from but in my mind no BMW is a poor performer at the track and the 335 is better than most. There have already been magazine reviews that have taken the 335 around the track faster than the E46 M3.

And well to be honest I drive at the track well umm a handful of times in my entire life and a 335 is going to get me around a twisty backroad or curvey on ramp as fast as an M3 could do it. The problem with breaking out track times is that those differences only exist on the track in the capable hands of experienced drivers. For the rest of us mortals the BMW tuned suspension in the 335 is going to be plenty for kind of roads most us will encounter.

I will say it again, I want an E92 M3 but only if the price is right. If the price is wrong then a tuned 335 is going to be hard to say no to!

Jason
JEllis is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-28-2006, 02:03 AM   #14
JEllis
Brigadier General
 
JEllis's Avatar
 
Drives: E36 M3, E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SD CA/Yuma

Posts: 4,674
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Lastly, there's no way a $2-3k ECU upgrade is going to yield 425 BHP. To get that kind of power you are going to have to invest much more. Remember whatever addtional HP you that you believe is lurking @ the rear wheels is also @ the M's rear wheels.
I am starting to really feel like I am pushing the 335 on people but if you think that around 420Hp from a tune on a 335 is not possible then you havent visited the 335 FI forum on E90post.com. There are already about half a dozen dynos from 335's that are pushing 330rwhp with only $1300 invested. You do the math but that is getting darn close to 400hp with only a tune.

I am not trying to push the 335 on anybody but I think the realities of its tuneability need to be recognized. Keep in mind that Vishnu is only the first of many companies to mod the 335. I can only imagine what a company like Dinan could do.

Jason
JEllis is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-28-2006, 02:22 AM   #15
enigma
Captain
 
Drives: E92 M3 and Elise
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Land of the Microchip

Posts: 689
iTrader: (0)

Once you start tuning a car its all about how much you are willing to spend and how often you can stand it breaking down.

Personally I like stock since I know the car isn't going to blow up on the way to work. I have seen a lot of aftermarket turbo cars go pop at the track and on the street.
__________________
Manual gearboxes, the rotary dial of cars.
enigma is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-28-2006, 05:17 AM   #16
MisterBMW
Private First Class
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Asia

Posts: 167
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Once you start tuning a car its all about how much you are willing to spend and how often you can stand it breaking down.

Personally I like stock since I know the car isn't going to blow up on the way to work. I have seen a lot of aftermarket turbo cars go pop at the track and on the street.
Thats quite true. I read in Scooby Forums that highly modded STIs with 400/500 bhp needs a period of rest if revved too hard too long, bcos the turbos were too hot. Man.....I am not gonna have a car where I need to pull over to let it cool off every now and then if I am making a long trip
MisterBMW is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-28-2006, 05:26 AM   #17
Robert
Major General
 
Drives: 135i, current is350
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Socal

Posts: 6,898
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
Some folks don't like to make serious modifications to an already great car. I want my car to be fast right off the showroom floor. I can guarantee the M3 will be faster right out of the showroom. I personnally don't care if some dude spends $15-20k on his 335 to make it faster than my M3. I know my M3 is still covered under factory warranty, will probably be less of a maintenance headache (than some finely tuned turbo car), and will probably last longer 150K + miles. Plus, I will still be faster on a road course in my M3.
Actually I think a 1300 dollar chip from vinhsu does the trick. Supposely 0-60 in 4.5s and 12 second quarter?
Robert is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-28-2006, 05:34 AM   #18
Robert
Major General
 
Drives: 135i, current is350
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Socal

Posts: 6,898
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
I am thinking 3k-5k is going to give you one hell of fast 335 given that Xede tuned 335's are doing 0-60 in the low 4's and 0-100 around 10 sec. For the street only its going to be hard to deny the 335 may be a better route for the guy that doesnt mind a tuned car and no warrenty.

I would rather have an M but if the price is wrong then it looks like I will be waiting for the 335 M sport with a Xede or at that point a Dinan tune to chase down Porsche's with.

Jason
Yea I dont think the current 335i will be as fun as the new M even with the added boost. With the M suspension the 335i should be able to match the fun factor of the M3. However, like some others have mentioned I like my car stock. I am not willing to void my warranty and the car's reliability is a key factor since I keep my cars for 10+ years. 335i is a great value no doubt but owning a car with the M emblem has always been my dream.

Since my car is totalled 3 weeks ago i have been driving a rental Maxima. That car has great power but every time I nail a corner I have to slow way down. I am not even going to begin how much it sucks to have 255hp to the front wheel.
Robert is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-28-2006, 12:39 PM   #19
devo
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: .2GT3/335Cpe/991 GT3 coming
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: thinking about cars, girls and money, not necessarily in that order.

Posts: 1,942
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
I am starting to really feel like I am pushing the 335 on people but if you think that around 420Hp from a tune on a 335 is not possible then you havent visited the 335 FI forum on E90post.com. There are already about half a dozen dynos from 335's that are pushing 330rwhp with only $1300 invested. You do the math but that is getting darn close to 400hp with only a tune.

I am not trying to push the 335 on anybody but I think the realities of its tuneability need to be recognized. Keep in mind that Vishnu is only the first of many companies to mod the 335. I can only imagine what a company like Dinan could do.

Jason


I believe you that there are some tuners getting 330 rwhp from their tuned 335's. I would think that the 335 already makes more hp than claimed, therefore the gain is not as dramatic as claimed. I would like to see a comparison; before and after. I would also assume that the new M will have more hp than claimed, so the disparity would not be that close. Unless I am mistaken, there is usually a roughly 15% loss correct?

There becomes a point where performance exponentially rises with cost. To get to 330rwhp may be easy but what does it take to get to 380 rwhp? I would think that you would have to be at least at that level to just match the M's power level. And even at that level, although a beautiful and fast car, the 335 will not likely match the M in any other catagory.
devo is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-28-2006, 02:58 PM   #20
sdiver68
Expert Road Racer
 
Drives: 07 335i e90, 09 335i e93
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 1,330
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
I believe you that there are some tuners getting 330 rwhp from their tuned 335's. I would think that the 335 already makes more hp than claimed, therefore the gain is not as dramatic as claimed. I would like to see a comparison; before and after. I would also assume that the new M will have more hp than claimed, so the disparity would not be that close. Unless I am mistaken, there is usually a roughly 15% loss correct?

There becomes a point where performance exponentially rises with cost. To get to 330rwhp may be easy but what does it take to get to 380 rwhp? I would think that you would have to be at least at that level to just match the M's power level. And even at that level, although a beautiful and fast car, the 335 will not likely match the M in any other catagory.
On the same dyno, before and after runs, depending upon the octane tune of the Xede, the cars are making 21-25% more HP and 25-30% more TQ. This is based on multiple installs and testing.

That's stage 0 tune, no exhaust.

So, the 335i + $1300, you'll have less peak HP but much more TQ under the curve assuming the 420/320 rumors are true.

1 more point, the 6MT '07 M5 was detuned by BMW according to Car and Driver's latest review, hope they don't do the same with the upcoming M3!
sdiver68 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-28-2006, 03:15 PM   #21
replicat
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 40MPG
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southern California

Posts: 516
iTrader: (0)

Not this again...

Seam welding on the M model, yadda yadda. No comparison to the regular 3.
replicat is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-28-2006, 05:04 PM   #22
JEllis
Brigadier General
 
JEllis's Avatar
 
Drives: E36 M3, E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SD CA/Yuma

Posts: 4,674
iTrader: (4)

Well here I am talking about 335i tuneability and Hamann goes and makes some press releases. Read for yourself.

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/12/28/t...-series-coupe/

Pic


JEllis is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:46 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST