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      12-03-2006, 11:10 PM   #23
replicat
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Originally Posted by mloyelo View Post
words of wisdom snook. i like you're style.

+1

Motons or go home.
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      12-03-2006, 11:18 PM   #24
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How many track days have you guys recommending Motons done with them?

Just curious.
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      12-03-2006, 11:26 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
How many track days have you guys recommending Motons done with them?

Just curious.
I suspect 2 have a lot of experience and the rest are just repeating what they hear others say.

No doubt they are a great option but not many are going to know the diffrence. The other thing to consider is that unless you have a lot of car setup experience its far easier to mess up a highly adjustable suspension than it is to get it right.

It takes a while to dial in a suspension if you don't have a pro do it for you.
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      12-03-2006, 11:31 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
The other thing to consider is that unless you have a lot of car setup experience its far easier to mess up a highly adjustable suspension than it is to get it right.

It takes a while to dial in a suspension if you don't have a pro do it for you.
That is what I have seen as well....
and Motons are not exactly easy to set up correctly. But the canisters do offer a lot of bling when you show them to your buddies.....
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      12-04-2006, 03:18 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
How many track days have you guys recommending Motons done with them?

Just curious.
total? roughly 10,000 track miles, give or take a thousand or so....

and with penske's on the short track car....oh.....hell, bout 3 seasons..which lets see....15 races, avg. track size is 3/4 mile....every main is 100 miles.....but then you've qualifying/practice/rent the track day/etc....

and on AD's.....oh......bout 8000 give or take, rebuilt along the way.....

any more questions?
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      12-04-2006, 03:20 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
That is what I have seen as well....
and Motons are not exactly easy to set up correctly. But the canisters do offer a lot of bling when you show them to your buddies.....

not when they are in the glovebox chief....

putting them under the hood is so club.

(im semi joking by the way, don't get bent)

you hand delbruck from bimmerfest (poo starter)...what's up man, how ya been.

how's the vette running.
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      12-04-2006, 03:21 AM   #29
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A real pro will tell you to buy what you need instead of what's best. For 95% of the people on these forums, even the Moton Clubsports are a major overkill.

While I don't doubt the quality of Moton products, I wouldn't simply go out and say they make *the* best stuff. Sure, for 3 grand, the Moton Clubsports are probably the best out of the box suspension money can buy. They are a no brainer, but only in the $3-4k segment. Just like anything else on a serious track car or a club race car, nothing is too much in the high end suspension world. If money is no problem, you can get equal or greater results from other specialists like JRZ or Ohlin. The choices are unlimited, because everything can be customized. At that point, everything is relative, what works for you best may not work for others.
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      12-04-2006, 03:26 AM   #30
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jrz does have the new shock that was just released for the prepared class...no remote resevoir...but currently, i've heard that support for those is hard to find.....

now as far as the full race that jrz and ohlin offer....certainly, different market....not really marketed with the "street" drive it around town/store/work crowd in mind.

however for the street, the clubsport (which it truly is made for)...i won't call it a race shock, because its technically a hybrid. Naturally, running them bumps one up immediately to modified class, and sometimes the benefit just doesn't add up......which is why jrz released their new shock (which is tough to get support on right now, too new, but give em time).
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      12-04-2006, 03:32 AM   #31
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JRZ makes some great stuff also. Ohlin seems to vary a lot, again its a case of their low end vs high end.

I guess the way I would look at it is this. If you don't know what handling issue you are fixing and what in the current suspension is causing it then I wouldn't even think about spending the money for the high end shocks like we are talking about here.

My 6 month dial in process on the Nitrons was an exercise in comedy. It went something like this.

1: Install parts, guess at settings.
2: Whoa, that a lot of wheel hop. adjust knobs
3: Hmm, amazing power on understeer. Adjust knobs
4: Still understeering and added snap oversteer, doh...
5: Look at pics of car in turns, doh... adjust rideheight.
6: Go out and spin 4 times in the first 3 autocross runs testing the change, adjust.
7: Back to track, some more minor tweaks.
8: Happiness
9: ???
10: Profit
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      12-04-2006, 03:39 AM   #32
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you forgot "oh shite" factor....how many/howfast
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      12-04-2006, 04:10 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snook View Post
how's the vette running.
It was running great last I drove it....

Missing my big V8 these days. The car weighed about 3080 pounds, stock, with 355 to the wheels. Not bad!

For me, Motons and the like would be like buying an expensive set of golf clubs. I'm still going to hit the ball the same distance and direction. With my skills, a suspension that allows fine-tuning is a waste of $$. A suspension to reduce body roll and get more camber, that would be worth it, for me... but I don't need to get Motons to do that.

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      12-04-2006, 04:35 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snook View Post
you forgot "oh shite" factor....how many/howfast
There were a few. Espically before I figured out the snap power on oversteer when I started to unwind out of turns. Not a big fan of full opposite lock when trying to track out.
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      12-04-2006, 07:27 PM   #35
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Some of us aren't "professionals" like some people here on the boards. But I have a bit of track experience done (im only 20 remember)...and I have never tracked on motons, but I have driven a gentlemans car that was equipped with them around the lot at the track...and they felt superb compared to my groundcontrol setup. Sorry if I havent have the experience or money to personally try out Ohlin or JRZ...but those motons were great.
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      12-04-2006, 07:59 PM   #36
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Replicat, what got you was:
Quote:
Motons or go home.
All people are trying to say is until you have enough experience to know how to dial a car in that your money is better spent elsewhere.
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      12-04-2006, 09:33 PM   #37
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It's cool to see some track guys here.

Sheet, 10,000 track miles?! I wish I could be that hardcore, I'd be at the track every weekend if I could, but don't have the money, or time... as I am still just a "working stiff."

Anyhow, for those who tracked their E46 M3's, how reliable was it and are there any common weak points on the car when driven hard?
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      12-04-2006, 10:46 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Replicat, what got you was:


All people are trying to say is until you have enough experience to know how to dial a car in that your money is better spent elsewhere.
What would your recommend for the E46 ///M3? Daily driver, some track time, and autocross. Any recommendations for the install?

I thought your not the mechanical kind of guy. You know your stuff about suspension though.
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      12-05-2006, 02:48 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
It's cool to see some track guys here.

Sheet, 10,000 track miles?! I wish I could be that hardcore, I'd be at the track every weekend if I could, but don't have the money, or time... as I am still just a "working stiff."

Anyhow, for those who tracked their E46 M3's, how reliable was it and are there any common weak points on the car when driven hard?
brake cooling is a must if running stock setup...however, with pads,rotors,cooling plates, stainless lines.....the stock system was able to endure a 2 hour enduro last season...not my car, DoubleD's...

the usual wear items...front bearings...obviously the rear control arm bushings...but those can be upgrade with a sawzall and a 3 arm clamp..

you know, the rear subframe has been brought up, however, im having this theory that it may be caused by either coilbind, or riding bumpstop under compression.....just an idea, no way to confirm it, but it seems that over time the one familiar item has either been aftermarket suspension, and ride height....of course measuring shock travel is a must with a zip tie.....but i just have this strange feeling...

water wetter, brake fluid, std items really....i mean std. maintenance/preventative maintenance...

i have smg, and its been good to go from the start.....only thing i'd really do is obviously change out tranny and diff fluids to something a lil more stout, although the new tranny fluid is some good stuff.......change out the clutch whenever its time to something a lil more beefy.....

you know, its really not that hard on the system at the track....with 4.10, most circuits you'll be 3rd/4th/sometimes5th.....but really, that's pretty much it....you've been to the track, you know what i mean...

the diffy hates u turns, and the tranny hates the drag starts.....taking care of it on the street really will carry over to the track..
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      12-05-2006, 02:53 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3ichael View Post
What would your recommend for the E46 ///M3? Daily driver, some track time, and autocross. Any recommendations for the install?

I thought your not the mechanical kind of guy. You know your stuff about suspension though.


you know, the thing is, knowing nick325 autox'd the hell out of the car....one of the things i would make sure of would be shock travel, spring bind......once shock hits stops, or the spring binds on itself.....you're putting direct pressure the the diff mounts....something's got to give.

man it really depends, class you want to run, for fun? for comp? tires? at the autox, leaving all things stock lets say...except for brake pads, you'll really benefit with a stickier tire.....all things staying stock, and assuming only one change per item so to speak..

iow, coilovers only (nothing else)
or
sways only (nothing else)
or
tires/wheels only (nothing else)
or
horsepower (nothing else)

you'll benefit the most, from tires/wheels.

and brake pads...assuming you're talking autox...simply because you'll chew up the oem's quickly..
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      12-05-2006, 05:11 AM   #41
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snook pretty much covered the basics.

Only think I would add is the faster you learn not to overdrive the car the easier its going to be to control costs. The E46 will just blaze off the outside of the front tires with the stock setup. The tendancy of most newer driver to overcook turns just makes it worse.

My personal todo list would start with brakes and then camber for the front of the car.
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      12-05-2006, 05:26 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3ichael View Post
What would your recommend for the E46 ///M3? Daily driver, some track time, and autocross. Any recommendations for the install?
No offence, but honestly, if you have to ask, stick to the mid range stuff. For half the price of the Moton clubsports, I highly recommend TCK's SA or DA coilovers. Great products, great service. They can accurately tell you how to dial them for your needs, very helpful for beginners. I've had them on 2 cars, both worked wonders for street/DE/autox. Personally, I'd stay away from Ground Control, their RMS reinforce plates bent like butterflies on my car, and I always hear problems with their Koni shocks (the TCK coilovers are also Koni-based, but I've never heard anything bad).

Even if it wasn't for the price, you'd still learn and get more from the mid range stuff. If you go straight for the high end stuff, chances are you won't appreciate them as much as you should. Plus, you ain't getting anything special out of the Motons with street level springs, which are what you want if the car is your DD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snook View Post
you know, the thing is, knowing nick325 autox'd the hell out of the car....
If we are talking about the same Nick (blue M3, white 323 race car), he really, really hates his dual-purpose M3 now.
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      12-05-2006, 03:37 PM   #43
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I don't plan on making the new M3 my track car, although it might see the track a few times. IMO, it's just too heavy and would need too much $$ to get it to the point where it is a viable track car. The best kind of track car is one that's stripped out with a cage, and expendable IMO. A brand new E92 M3 is not even close to that, unless you're a huge BMW fan and not willing to drive anything else on the track, and willing to spend the $$ to convert it. There are a lot better weekend track toys for the $$. Or even street/track toys like the Elise (that's what I'm currently tracking too, enigma ) The best track BMW is one of those factory-built race cars -- those are awesome! I've seen a used E46 model sell for something in the 40's...

Thanks for all the great info.
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      12-05-2006, 05:38 PM   #44
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Oh I get it.

But anywho... thanks for the advice (I hate the internet, can never get a persons attitude across..alot of times I think people are being arrogant and condescending, when they aren't)...but by the time it comes to buying some suspension for the E92 hopefully I cn get smoe advice from you...

P.S. 10,000 miles on the track!
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