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      11-25-2006, 11:59 AM   #23
Mikeobello
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoltz View Post
Maybe this is just a translation problem. We're talking about Nordshleife times, no one said anything about acceleration. Also, you never agreed with me, only disagreed.

The Z06 was not tested on special wheels or tires. Look in this link...
http://janmagnussen.com/gallery.asp?...yID=1124467865

With that being said the Z06 review was not done independantly so maybe it isn't the best benchmark.

The M3 CSL was tested on R-Comps. If the Z06 was put on R-Comps it would have gone even faster than 7.43.

With all that being said, I will repeat, there is NO WAY the E92 M3 will go round faster than 7.43 (I'm assuming no R-Comps).

-Adam
no translation problems. where do you read i agree with you? i agree with jussi. and to the rest: theories! we dont know, we will see. you say there will be no ways the new m3 will beat the z06 in nordschleife and i say, i wouldnt bet, there is nothing more to it. we will see, time will tell, with or without our theories
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      11-25-2006, 07:25 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeobello View Post
no translation problems. where do you read i agree with you? i agree with jussi. and to the rest: theories! we dont know, we will see. you say there will be no ways the new m3 will beat the z06 in nordschleife and i say, i wouldnt bet, there is nothing more to it. we will see, time will tell, with or without our theories
I would bet without hesitation that the new M3 will not be faster than 7:42.9 unless it's on r-comps. The laws of physics are on my side.

-Adam
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      12-01-2006, 08:59 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeobello View Post
no translation problems. where do you read i agree with you? i agree with jussi. and to the rest: theories! we dont know, we will see. you say there will be no ways the new m3 will beat the z06 in nordschleife and i say, i wouldnt bet, there is nothing more to it. we will see, time will tell, with or without our theories
Unless BMW gives the M-3 the north side of 450 hp and lose about 300 lbs. of it's projected weight... it won't be dethroning the vette at the track. The Z06 may be a cheap piece of unrefined plastic housing an equally barbaric engine, but it's still a very fast car, whose track times are astonishing.

There's brand loyalty and there a failure to listen to the rationale. With that said, I'd still buy the M, of course.
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      12-01-2006, 09:27 PM   #26
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Heh, lots of car people refuse to let facts and physics get in the way of their beliefs.

Those that are convinced its going to stomp the Z06 while using equal tires, what are you willing to bet?
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      12-09-2006, 08:09 AM   #27
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I think american cars nowadays are pure crap.
It was better back in the 70īs.

BMW might be slower round nurburgring but americans donīt understand much about design and giving a car a soul and a heritage that German/European cars do.

Sincerly Your,

Manna Svanna
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      12-09-2006, 12:33 PM   #28
Mikeobello
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manna View Post
I think american cars nowadays are pure crap.
It was better back in the 70īs.

BMW might be slower round nurburgring but americans donīt understand much about design and giving a car a soul and a heritage that German/European cars do.

Sincerly Your,

Manna Svanna
"Post 1"? great start!
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      12-10-2006, 03:08 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeobello View Post
"Post 1"? great start!
Cmon now...what does that have to do with anything?
I am sure that you started with post 1.
Can't we be more nice? hahaha
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      12-14-2006, 12:56 AM   #30
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Ok LTs, I have to say I am totally onboard with Enigma. I couldn't care less about 0-60 times. It only measures one aspect of a car's greatness. I'd rather compare track times. But any of those measurements are so driver dependant. I'd have to say the 0-60 time even being more driver dependant because we're talking fractions of a second. I was up at Watkin's Glen last fall for a BMW Driver's School. I have a mostly stock E-36 M3, but yet I was going faster than all the E46 M3s in my school. That means I was going faster than cars with 88 more horsepower than my car. Horsepower and acceleration aren't the only measure of how fast a car really is. BTW, I did a 2:24.6 at the Glen. I only wish all cars could be tested at the same track for a good comparison. I guess the ring is as good as any. But I've only driven it in a underpowered rental car.
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      12-14-2006, 01:56 AM   #31
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I'd be surprised (but happily so) if the new M3 even beats the C5 Z06, which ran the ring in 7:56 on stock tires......
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      12-14-2006, 02:37 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
I'd be surprised (but happily so) if the new M3 even beats the C5 Z06, which ran the ring in 7:56 on stock tires......
+1...
I HIGHLY doubt that's gonna happen though but...
Who knows?
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      12-16-2006, 10:22 AM   #33
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Totally agreed..
M3 will be waaaay behind z06..
Z06 has:
- 507hp
- Tons more torque
- much less weight
- lower center of gravity


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoltz View Post
There's no way the new M3 will beat the Z06 on the Nordschleife. Keep dreaming.

-Adam
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      12-19-2006, 01:40 AM   #34
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One thing the 'Ring does test that could help level the playing field a bit for the M3 is balance and stability in the face of some horrific road conditions (for a track) that are taken at insane speeds. 505 HP is only good if you can put the power down. The long wheelbase (for a sports car/GT) of an M3 makes it very stable so you can eek out that last bit of grip and get out of corners a touch faster. Once you get to a certain HP/weight level, HP starts making a bit less of a difference because traction issues prevent the driver from using all the power all the time.

With that said, the M3 will probably be porky (3500 lbs +) vs. the relatively svelt 3150 lb Vette with a lower center of gravity, bigger tires, more HP, more torque, and less frontal area (aero drag) so the nod still goes to the C6 Z06.
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      12-19-2006, 02:34 AM   #35
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The Z06 suspension is nothing to scoff at. In many ways its a much better setup than BMWs. The E92 isn't likely to make up time due to handling.

Other note, its vastly easier to get power down in the Vette simply because it got a lot more rear tire to put the power down.

Compare:
M3:
~3500lbs
235 / 265 tires
~430hp
~8.1 lb / HP
~14.6 lb per mm tire

Z06
3130lbs
275 / 325 tires
505hp
6.2 lb / hp (~30% advantage)
10.4 lb / mm tire (~40% advantage)

That doesn't take into account the lower CG and better camber control of the suspension that keeps more of the tires in contact with the road.
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      12-19-2006, 10:21 AM   #36
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first of all, Hi everybody !

just wanna say a few things,

I don´t think the M3 is meant to compete against the Vette or have i missed something ?

take an M3 or CSL, tune the engine so it has 500 bhp and you get a Vette-killer, am i right ? sorry but americans can´t make an engine with 100bhp/litre and they still haven´t figured out the thing with quality cars either...

the vette is a piece of plastic with a friggin Airplane engine glued on
that´s why it´s so fast... you will probably run out of gas in the second lap on the ring cuz of the engine....

anywayyyyy.....everybody keeps comparing the m3 with the vette and they did it with the m5 too. i wanna see bmw build a car that has the same bhp and weight as the vette
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      12-19-2006, 02:22 PM   #37
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Back in 2001 my brochure on the E46 M3 had a comparison with the C5 in it. Interesting that BMW would do the comparison themself.

The Z06 and the M5 make about the same HP. The Z06 gets better fuel economy.

The only reason for the comparison in this thread is others were claiming the E92 would be faster. It won't be. Even with 500hp it wouldn't be because its still heavier, on skinny tires, and an inferior suspension.

Now despite all that I am not buying one because I don't like the interrior. I also want a car with 4 seats and a real trunk. There is more to a car than just going fast.
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      12-19-2006, 04:40 PM   #38
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oh didn´t know that well i think that the new M3 will give the Vette a hard time...

a 420bhp car can infact perform better on a track than a 500bhp car so it isn´t all about the engine really, plus bmw has "German Enginering" (<-spelling?)
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      12-19-2006, 04:51 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_CSL_E92 View Post
a 420bhp car can infact perform better on a track than a 500bhp car so it isnīt all about the engine really, plus bmw has "German Enginering" (<-spelling?)
Yes a 420hp car can outperfom a 500hp one at the track. But to do so it needs an advantage in some area. i.e. Less weight, more grip, better handling, or better brakes.

For example my elise is 6-8 seconds faster at the track (Laguna Seca) than my M3 was. It has 190hp to 333hp, and the same power to weight. It makes up the performance in the corners and brake zones.

Where do you think the E92 will have an advantage? Please explain how you reach your position.
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      12-19-2006, 05:42 PM   #40
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hmmm.... the Z06 is front heavy right ? (correct me if i´m wrong)

a car that has it´s weight 50/50 can take corners faster than a car that´s front heavy right ? (again correct me if i´m wrong)

i think that´s the only advantage the M will have against the Vette but who knows... again it´s two different cars but if the M3 gets his ass whooped the upcoming CSL will clear things up with the Z06 ....

btw the E46 CSL is lighter than the Z06...
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      12-19-2006, 05:58 PM   #41
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Its the same 50/50 as the M3. The V8 is actually a very light engine for the power it produces. BTW: don't fall in love with the 50/50 thing Porsche, Ferrari, and Lotus all make cars that are rear heavy and it doesn't hurt them one bit. You just don't want the heavy end being the front.

When the CSL is out we can re-visit this. However, since I cannot buy a CSL in the US, its not an option here.
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      12-19-2006, 06:47 PM   #42
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didn´t knew that actually... i guess i should have looked it up before posting that but now i don´t need to cuz the forum has mature and nice people (thank god for that)

well we just have to see how close it will be when it arrives next year

oh and thx for the little heads-up m8
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      12-19-2006, 11:40 PM   #43
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0-60 times

Since this whole thread started with 0-60 predictions I will add this. I was looking in the September 06 Car and Driver Magazine tonight. They measured a 4.9 0-60 in the 335. So for those concerned about the E92 M3 0-60, we know it will be less than 4.9. They also said that the E46 M3 was also 4.9 as a point of comparison.
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