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      11-22-2006, 02:01 PM   #1
coaster
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New M3 at $20K markup?

Hi guys,

New subscriber here, I was at BMW dealer yesterday getting oil change and asked sales guy about new M3 with V8. He said they'll probably get them late next year but if I wanted to be one of the first few I would be looking at around $20K markup!

I was thinking $60K for the car (with CA tax $65K out the door) but at $80K+ for the car I can't compete in this market.

Does anybody know if European delivery for this car saves any money? I could fly to Germany to pick up the car if it saves me a few $K.

If this really is what's gonna happen, I will either have to wait till 2009 until the initial demand is filled and prices go back toward MSRP (if they do) or get something else instead. Price is important for me becasue, unfortunately, I am a middle class guy and don't have the deep pockets some of the other enthusiasts.

There are two other alternatives if the car comes out priced that high:
(1) Consider the new IS500
(2) Go for the 335i with Perf. Package and spend $10K on tuning

As you can tell I'm kinda pissed about this markup BS that's going on with the stealers.
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      11-22-2006, 02:25 PM   #2
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Check out another dealer. Not all dealers are so greedy and many are taking deposits to purchase the cars at MSRP.

Also, I don't believe European delivery will save you money any longer.
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      11-22-2006, 07:21 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Hi guys,

New subscriber here, I was at BMW dealer yesterday getting oil change and asked sales guy about new M3 with V8. He said they'll probably get them late next year but if I wanted to be one of the first few I would be looking at around $20K markup!

I was thinking $60K for the car (with CA tax $65K out the door) but at $80K+ for the car I can't compete in this market.

Does anybody know if European delivery for this car saves any money? I could fly to Germany to pick up the car if it saves me a few $K.

If this really is what's gonna happen, I will either have to wait till 2009 until the initial demand is filled and prices go back toward MSRP (if they do) or get something else instead. Price is important for me becasue, unfortunately, I am a middle class guy and don't have the deep pockets some of the other enthusiasts.

There are two other alternatives if the car comes out priced that high:
(1) Consider the new IS500
(2) Go for the 335i with Perf. Package and spend $10K on tuning

As you can tell I'm kinda pissed about this markup BS that's going on with the stealers.
i like your 2nd idea
something i will do if i have extra $$$ in my pocket
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      11-22-2006, 10:15 PM   #4
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Markups

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Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Hi guys,
New subscriber here, I was at BMW dealer yesterday getting oil change and asked sales guy about new M3 with V8. He said they'll probably get them late next year but if I wanted to be one of the first few I would be looking at around $20K markup!
Markups depend on the time, the dealer and the area. Some markup hot models like the M3 as long as they can. Some dealers have an official no mark up policy. Many So. Cal. dealers got between $5k-$15k over MSRP for the E46 M3 for a number of months after the car was available. Some dealers will get $20k for the new M from some desperate (and silly) folks who must have the car "now" without having planned in advance. Definitely call around. I had to call about a dozen dealers around So. Cal. to find a reasonable spot (I got #5) guranteed at MSRP for $1k deposit. PM me if you want my dealer info. they should have spots <#10, which would be a car fairly soon but not immediately on release. Good luck.
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      11-23-2006, 03:52 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Hi guys,

New subscriber here, I was at BMW dealer yesterday getting oil change and asked sales guy about new M3 with V8. He said they'll probably get them late next year but if I wanted to be one of the first few I would be looking at around $20K markup!

I was thinking $60K for the car (with CA tax $65K out the door) but at $80K+ for the car I can't compete in this market.

Does anybody know if European delivery for this car saves any money? I could fly to Germany to pick up the car if it saves me a few $K.

If this really is what's gonna happen, I will either have to wait till 2009 until the initial demand is filled and prices go back toward MSRP (if they do) or get something else instead. Price is important for me becasue, unfortunately, I am a middle class guy and don't have the deep pockets some of the other enthusiasts.

There are two other alternatives if the car comes out priced that high:
(1) Consider the new IS500
(2) Go for the 335i with Perf. Package and spend $10K on tuning

As you can tell I'm kinda pissed about this markup BS that's going on with the stealers.

If you can wait just wait. Even with the 20k you will be luck if you have a position in the wait list. Most wait list in CA are growing by the minute and I haven't found a place taht guarentees me MSRP. I am not paying a dime over MSRP
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      11-23-2006, 12:24 PM   #6
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If you can wait just wait. Even with the 20k you will be luck if you have a position in the wait list. Most wait list in CA are growing by the minute and I haven't found a place taht guarentees me MSRP. I am not paying a dime over MSRP
I just read that the 4-door sedan M3 will not appear until a year after the coupe (4 doors are a must 4 me). That puts it out in the fall of 2008. Sounds like I'll have to wait a bit longer than I thought.

On another subject I just finished reading the tuner thread on the 335i and they are getting 0-60 times of 4.2 seconds with what appears to be simple and safe tuning costing around $3-5K. This is M5 territory!

The new M3 will have to be very special to deserve any markup whatsoever. Or BMW may have just shot themselves in the foot by introducing the twin turbo 335i.
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      11-23-2006, 06:07 PM   #7
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335i vs M3

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Originally Posted by coaster View Post
I just read that the 4-door sedan M3 will not appear until a year after the coupe (4 doors are a must 4 me). That puts it out in the fall of 2008. Sounds like I'll have to wait a bit longer than I thought.

On another subject I just finished reading the tuner thread on the 335i and they are getting 0-60 times of 4.2 seconds with what appears to be simple and safe tuning costing around $3-5K. This is M5 territory!

The new M3 will have to be very special to deserve any markup whatsoever. Or BMW may have just shot themselves in the foot by introducing the twin turbo 335i.
This topic has been beat to death there is no comparison between a 335i stock or hopped up and an M3 either E46 or E90.

Sure with a small investment you can get close to or equal in 0-60 (maybe even exceed some roll ons over E46 that favor lots of low rpm torque) but handling and reliability is a whole other game. To match either E46 or E90 M the 335i will need: brakes, tires, LSD (have fun doing “one wheel wonder” burnouts and corner exits with your drag racer 335i), springs, shocks, sway bars, functional aerodynamic body kit (probably will not be made…especially under car items), SMG (whoops you can’t get that in a 335i and probably not even DIY without changing the complete engine management system) and an improved intercooler. Even with all this you won’t have the steering quality nor feel nor the unsprung weight of the Ms. Lastly your turbos will not last very long. These differences are what you pay for in the M and I did not even get into comfort things such as much better seats or much better looks.
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      11-23-2006, 06:54 PM   #8
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This topic has been beat to death there is no comparison between a 335i stock or hopped up and an M3 either E46 or E90.

Sure with a small investment you can get close to or equal in 0-60 (maybe even exceed soe roll ons over E46 that favor lots of low rpm torque) but handling and reliability is a whole other game. To match either E46 or E90 M the 335i will need: brakes, tires, LSD (have fun doing “one wheel wonder” burnouts and corner exits with your drag racer 335i), springs, shocks, sway bars, functional aerodynamic body kit (probably will not be made…especially under car items), SMG (whoops you can’t get that in a 335i and probably not even DIY without changing the complete engine management system) and an improved intercooler. Even with all this you won’t have the steering quality nor feel nor the unsprung weight of the Ms. Lastly your turbos will not last very long. These differences are what you pay for in the M and I did not even get into comfort things such as much better seats or much better looks.
Not to mention the fact that the chassis of the 335i is engineered for Runflat tyres, and the M3's won't be... and that'll be a huge difference in handling and feel, even if you install non-runflats on the 335i.

BMW PLEASE STOP RAPING YOUR CARS AND CUSTOMERS WITH RUNFLAT TYRES NOW!

Best regards,

Jussi
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      11-24-2006, 12:28 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
This topic has been beat to death there is no comparison between a 335i stock or hopped up and an M3 either E46 or E90.

Sure with a small investment you can get close to or equal in 0-60 (maybe even exceed some roll ons over E46 that favor lots of low rpm torque) but handling and reliability is a whole other game. To match either E46 or E90 M the 335i will need: brakes, tires, LSD (have fun doing “one wheel wonder” burnouts and corner exits with your drag racer 335i), springs, shocks, sway bars, functional aerodynamic body kit (probably will not be made…especially under car items), SMG (whoops you can’t get that in a 335i and probably not even DIY without changing the complete engine management system) and an improved intercooler. Even with all this you won’t have the steering quality nor feel nor the unsprung weight of the Ms. Lastly your turbos will not last very long. These differences are what you pay for in the M and I did not even get into comfort things such as much better seats or much better looks.
Slow down friend and consider switching to decaf. Are we being a little biased perhaps? We are talking $40K difference here between 335 and marked up M3. Not to mention insurance, license and tax differential. If money is no object why bother with the M3 at all? Step up to the $300K market and be styling The $40K differential is a lot of mula to buy brakes, tires and LSD (an absolute must) and have money left over to leave the M3 in the dust. I'll give you the reliability thingie though, no doubt.

We will also need to see what else is out there in the sub $70K market in a couple of years when the M3 sedan is out. Also don't forget the 335i will probably have the M-version or ZHP-equivalent version out by then or we may have the 340i or something like that. Meanwhile you have to accept the fact that by then smart 335 tuners will have managed to eclipse the straight line performance of your beloved E92 M3 with sub $10K tunes.

Unlike the faithful, the M3 will have to earn it for me. And it starts with the BMW stealers themselves. Happy thanksgiving!
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      11-24-2006, 12:36 AM   #10
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Not to mention the fact that the chassis of the 335i is engineered for Runflat tyres, and the M3's won't be... and that'll be a huge difference in handling and feel, even if you install non-runflats on the 335i.

BMW PLEASE STOP RAPING YOUR CARS AND CUSTOMERS WITH RUNFLAT TYRES NOW!

Best regards,

Jussi

Yeap, I don't get the runflats at all. What idiot at BMW woke up one morning and said: "let's ruin this car by setting it up with runflats".

Pure genious!!!
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      11-24-2006, 01:36 AM   #11
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Well you have to rememer that the 335i Is a "sporty" car not a sports car. Its meant for DD and not for the track, so more unsprung mass added to the car with a tradeoff of saftey is easily made on the car. Not the case w/ with M3.
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      11-24-2006, 03:26 AM   #12
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Here we go...

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Originally Posted by coaster View Post
Slow down friend and consider switching to decaf. Are we being a little biased perhaps? We are talking $40K difference here between 335 and marked up M3. Not to mention insurance, license and tax differential. If money is no object why bother with the M3 at all? Step up to the $300K market and be styling The $40K differential is a lot of mula to buy brakes, tires and LSD (an absolute must) and have money left over to leave the M3 in the dust. I'll give you the reliability thingie though, no doubt.

We will also need to see what else is out there in the sub $70K market in a couple of years when the M3 sedan is out. Also don't forget the 335i will probably have the M-version or ZHP-equivalent version out by then or we may have the 340i or something like that. Meanwhile you have to accept the fact that by then smart 335 tuners will have managed to eclipse the straight line performance of your beloved E92 M3 with sub $10K tunes.

Unlike the faithful, the M3 will have to earn it for me. And it starts with the BMW stealers themselves. Happy thanksgiving!
No need to start off our first conversations with an insult. I don’t even drink coffee, wise guy. If you think it is wise/fair to compare two cars price to performance ratio including a $20k dealer mark up on one of them then maybe you need to switch off of something yourself, something a lot stronger than coffee.

I am not biased against the 335i. I really like the car. I have a brochure for one and have driven it. It is a darn nice car. It is just, as replicat stated, a sporty car, not a sports car (well said replicat). Perhaps, if all you care about is straight line performance, wouldn’t a used Mustang with a blown big block and drag slicks, while saving a ton over a 335i make more sense?

Sure I like to imagine how fantastic the new M3 will be; I have owned an E36 and E46 M and do believe Ms are fantastic cars. Fantastic all around, performance, track and straight line, comfort, a bit of luxury, looks, reliability, etc. Ms have an undeniable pedigree and each generation steps it up a notch. Sure BMW has gone more GT and less track car, but I am fine with that bias. They continue to push the envelope not only on performance but in price/performance as well. My “faith” I think is totally justified. If the car does not earn your faith no one will care anyway. Happy Thanksgiving back at ya.
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      11-24-2006, 03:28 AM   #13
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Question Details??

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Originally Posted by JK42 View Post
Not to mention the fact that the chassis of the 335i is engineered for Runflat tyres, and the M3's won't be... and that'll be a huge difference in handling and feel, even if you install non-runflats on the 335i.

BMW PLEASE STOP RAPING YOUR CARS AND CUSTOMERS WITH RUNFLAT TYRES NOW!

Best regards,

Jussi
Expand on this, please! Details, details! THX.
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      11-24-2006, 06:39 AM   #14
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Markups depend on the time, the dealer and the area. Some markup hot models like the M3 as long as they can. Some dealers have an official no mark up policy. Many So. Cal. dealers got between $5k-$15k over MSRP for the E46 M3 for a number of months after the car was available. Some dealers will get $20k for the new M from some desperate (and silly) folks who must have the car "now" without having planned in advance. Definitely call around. I had to call about a dozen dealers around So. Cal. to find a reasonable spot (I got #5) guranteed at MSRP for $1k deposit. PM me if you want my dealer info. they should have spots <#10, which would be a car fairly soon but not immediately on release. Good luck.
Leave me a message on which dealer.
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      11-24-2006, 07:29 AM   #15
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Expand on this, please! Details, details! THX.
All BMW models that have runflat tyres have their suspension tuned for the substantional additional unsprung mass that the runflat tyres add to the vehicle. It's a tradeoff, trying to make the car handle like a BMW even with runflats under it. When you suddenly take off your runflats, and change them to regular tyres, your suspension is still tuned for the runflats, and is not optimal for regular tyres.

M models on the other hand are the only BMWs left that come with regular tyres, thus their suspensions are also tuned for them.

Best regards,

Jussi
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      11-24-2006, 07:34 AM   #16
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BTW,

Was out testing a 650i the other day and jeez, I almost forgot (since I drove E39 M5s the last time, it's been a while), how good BMW V8s can sound when tuned to sound very sporty. It's amazing how different the N62B48 pot sounds on the 650i vs. the 750i, even though it's completely the same engine. On the 650i it's very close to the E39 M5 (as are the performance specs of the engine as well.). Roaring thunder. Got me thinking how menacing the new M3's V8 must sound... It'll be something mindblowing when you rev it up all the way.

Best regards,

Jussi
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      11-24-2006, 11:26 AM   #17
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It is just, as replicat stated, a sporty car, not a sports car (well said replicat).
You missed the point. A sporty car + more money turns into a sports car. Work with me here, although I understand it's hard once you have become a fan boy

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Perhaps, if all you care about is straight line performance, wouldn’t a used Mustang with a blown big block and drag slicks, while saving a ton over a 335i make more sense?
No need to go there. Recall I am interested in 4 doors and there isn't much out there other than your M3, RS4, IS500, C63. The 335i is not in this class but for $20K more you may get 100% of the M3 straightline performance and maybe 90% of its handling and interior refinement. And keep $20K in the pocket, pay less for insurance, taxes, license. So please stop with your poorly chosen Mustang comparo. You could have used the Corvette Z06 which could probably outdo the new M3 in every performance category (but not in practicality and interior). Let's call it for what it is and not for what we would like it to be.

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Sure I like to imagine how fantastic the new M3 will be; I have owned an E36 and E46 M and do believe Ms are fantastic cars. Fantastic all around, performance, track and straight line, comfort, a bit of luxury, looks, reliability, etc. Ms have an undeniable pedigree and each generation steps it up a notch. Sure BMW has gone more GT and less track car, but I am fine with that bias. They continue to push the envelope not only on performance but in price/performance as well. My “faith” I think is totally justified. If the car does not earn your faith no one will care anyway. Happy Thanksgiving back at ya.
OK, you are demonstrating that you are a true believer based on historical evidence. We get it. And you may even be right about the price-performance-quality tradeoff offerred in the new M3. On the other hand I am not yet a convert or a fanboy and would like to see where everything ends up before buying. I also have a little trouble buying a car with bugs still in it (visions of E46 M3). No need to commit to a car that nobody yet knows and its coming out in 2008.

Peace.
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      11-24-2006, 11:33 AM   #18
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Name one BMW model that has had any bugs in it's initial model that required any fixes or changes since the E46 M3.

The list is very short: -

BMW's quality control and testing standards have improved all the time, and that's the reason we see the new M3's driving around all over the world 1+ year before the actual release of the car. To make sure that it's good to go when it's released.

Best regards,

Jussi
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      11-24-2006, 01:56 PM   #19
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Fanboy this

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You missed the point. A sporty car + more money turns into a sports car. Work with me here, although I understand it's hard once you have become a fan boy



No need to go there. Recall I am interested in 4 doors and there isn't much out there other than your M3, RS4, IS500, C63. The 335i is not in this class but for $20K more you may get 100% of the M3 straightline performance and maybe 90% of its handling and interior refinement. And keep $20K in the pocket, pay less for insurance, taxes, license. So please stop with your poorly chosen Mustang comparo. You could have used the Corvette Z06 which could probably outdo the new M3 in every performance category (but not in practicality and interior). Let's call it for what it is and not for what we would like it to be.



OK, you are demonstrating that you are a true believer based on historical evidence. We get it. And you may even be right about the price-performance-quality tradeoff offerred in the new M3. On the other hand I am not yet a convert or a fanboy and would like to see where everything ends up before buying. I also have a little trouble buying a car with bugs still in it (visions of E46 M3). No need to commit to a car that nobody yet knows and its coming out in 2008.

Peace.
Well we still disagree. Sporty car + $ is not really equal to sports car. Sure you can get most elements of performance improved but do you really want to be driving around a new BMW with a aftermarket differential, not under warranty? Race teams can do the engineering right to hop up cars but most aftermarket companies can not touch OEM let alone M engineering and quality.

Sure the 'tang was an exterme point but my point was made.

As far as "fanboy" goes you are still resorting to insults. An informed and passioniate enthusiast is hardly fanboy material.
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      11-24-2006, 05:18 PM   #20
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I had no problem getting a slot at MSRP. Kind of renders the whole 335 + markup $$$ talk pointless as far as I am concerned.
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      11-24-2006, 08:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
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Name one BMW model that has had any bugs in it's initial model that required any fixes or changes since the E46 M3.

The list is very short: -

BMW's quality control and testing standards have improved all the time, and that's the reason we see the new M3's driving around all over the world 1+ year before the actual release of the car. To make sure that it's good to go when it's released.

Best regards,

Jussi
Since we are talking about the M3 we can only compare the potential for bugs to previous M3s and that means E46. We know the story on that.

As for other models there have been minor things such as my current 2005 ZHP which has that undesirable dip in the torque curve near 4K RPM. I don't know why BMW didn't take care this before launching the ZHP and why they had to resort to service bulletins for it.

I do get your point though that the M group has probably gotten their act together this time around with all the testing going on a year before launch. But it doesn't hurt to wait until some of the "early adopters" report back with the bugs if/when they find them.
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      11-24-2006, 08:41 PM   #22
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Sure the 'tang was an exterme point but my point was made.

As far as "fanboy" goes you are still resorting to insults. An informed and passioniate enthusiast is hardly fanboy material.
At least we agree to disagree. I still say the Mustang was the wrong example used to make a good point.

I'll give you the "passionate enthusiast" part, you definitely fit that profile. But to say that you are "informed" about a car that is a year away and that most of the information available on forums is pure gossip, you lost me there.

Also don't forget the competition, there will be at least two cars going against the M3 by 2008. I certainly plan to look at them before locking down the M3.

We can still be friends and not have to share the same "enthusiasm" ya know
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