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      11-09-2006, 02:56 PM   #1
replicat
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New Braking Technology

Below is an atricle that will revolutionize braking as we know it. As most of you know electronics are taking over cars nowadays. And the new Flexray technology incorporated in BMWs upcoming cars, is giving us speeds 20x faster (10MPBS realtime) than the old CAN data transmission system before (500KBPS realtime)

With that said, Flexray has opened doors to all kinds of new gizmos that our cars will now be capable of controlling thanks to a faster more reliable DTS, inluding hopefully the brakes you are about to read about.

60ft. 60-0 MPH Stopping times anyone?

Enjoy,

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../61106011/1065

-Pete.
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      11-09-2006, 03:01 PM   #2
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hm...interesting but i am sure that it wont be on new m3...at least not the first year model
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      11-09-2006, 03:07 PM   #3
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Oh yeah, its still undergoing testing. But did you read what it said about cutting braking times by nearly HALF!! I am so excited! But I feel really bad for all of the braking companies, they are going to go out of business unless they can buy the rights to the technology from Siemens.
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      11-09-2006, 03:15 PM   #4
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well even if it's that great, unless every company (like BMW,MB,AUDI,etc) adopts that technology to every single car, everyone will still have hydraulic braking system on their cars and plus, i am thinking that this will be used on upper level models like ferrari, etc. (since it is so GREAT invention!)
it will be awhile for braking companies to go nuts with the new braking system at least.
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      11-09-2006, 03:30 PM   #5
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We'll just because the technology is great, it doesn't have to be for performance! It will save lives too! Imagine all the children that get hit in the street chasing a ball, all because of long breaking distances. If they could cut those braking distances by a quarter of the distance, it would be marvelous, but imagine 1/2!!! Its gonna be great.

Along with tires that are capable of stopping with the car, this will be an ultimate saftey feature...and an incredible performance enhancer! I think it will be in effect in 40-50% of all cars by 2012.
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      11-09-2006, 03:45 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maggo View Post
I'm talking as a private person, ok?
The stopping distance can not be reduced to 50% with any kind of brakes.
The grip tires is the key to reduce the breaking distance.

I think the keypoint of the new braking system ist to reduce the time between applying the prake pedal and the point where braking begins.
Im saying this a a private person too! I know that tires are the secondary key to stopping. I stated it above. I think that on cars that have the tires to accomodate the stopping power will have the dramatic change.

And the half distance thing, isn't just from where the breaking begins.

"In tests, a prototype with the wedge brakes regularly required less than half the distance to come to a complete stop than the prototype with the standard brakes," a company official said.

Thats straight from the horses mouth too! Whether or not its true, we will have to wait and see. But either way, on race cars it will prove to be a great innovation, because usually the problem for them is brake fade, not tires being able to hold up.

-Pete.
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      11-09-2006, 04:06 PM   #7
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I'm not the engineer here maggo, but good point about the fading I never thought about that, (what kind of pads will be used). We have to see how they stop in half the distance as they claim. But I don't think that would lie about it either.
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      11-09-2006, 04:33 PM   #8
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An industry source said, “We recently ran a test involving two Audi A6 prototypes. One was fitted with conventional disc brakes, the other with the latest development of wedge brakes. In exercises that involved the cars braking from 62mph, the prototype with the wedge brakes regularly required less than half the distance to come to a complete standstill than the prototype with the standard brakes. The difference is nothing short of amazing.”


I also found that on www.speedtv.com

A very reputable source.

AND

It saves weight, and frees up room in the engine compartment about 22liters, where the Brake master cylinder/resovoir reside. It will also obliterate ABS as we know it. http://www.siemens.com/index.jsp?sdc...tentid=1315440 For more info.
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      11-09-2006, 08:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
"In tests, a prototype with the wedge brakes regularly required less than half the distance to come to a complete stop than the prototype with the standard brakes," a company official said.

Thats straight from the horses mouth too! Whether or not its true, we will have to wait and see.
-Pete.
Sounds like marketing hype to me. It is cool that you can simplify, lighten and improve the whole braking system at the same time. However, under the hardest braking, with no fading occuring (i.e. any good brakes), traction (down force and tire grip together) is always the limiting factor. I suspect what the 50% reduction may mean was not under maxiumum braking conditions and not with a skilled driver. Just a guess.
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      11-09-2006, 08:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
An industry source said, “We recently ran a test involving two Audi A6 prototypes. One was fitted with conventional disc brakes, the other with the latest development of wedge brakes. In exercises that involved the cars braking from 62mph, the prototype with the wedge brakes regularly required less than half the distance to come to a complete standstill than the prototype with the standard brakes. The difference is nothing short of amazing.”


I also found that on www.speedtv.com

A very reputable source.

AND

It saves weight, and frees up room in the engine compartment about 22liters, where the Brake master cylinder/resovoir reside. It will also obliterate ABS as we know it. http://www.siemens.com/index.jsp?sdc...tentid=1315440 For more info.
Notice again, Siemens is developing this system - not Audi or VAG themselves. I'm sure BMW has something of their own under their sleeve. And yes, I know, BMW does use Siemens and Bosch parts as well.

Best regards,

Jussi
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      11-09-2006, 08:35 PM   #11
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Hmm, how could the test not have been under extreme conditions. There is only one universal braking test that I know of. The 60-0 braking. Its where you are going 60 mph and you slam on the brakes. Simple as that, lol.

Remember, don't shoot me. I just copy and pasted info...if you are that content on denying its abilities, or lack there of for that matter. Write Siemens a letter.
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      11-09-2006, 08:47 PM   #12
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"Extreme conditions" usually mean weather conditions of either extreme heat or cold... Still my point was, VAG isn't developing this, like they aren't pretty much anything else either, just riding along with Siemens.

Best regards,

Jussi
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      11-09-2006, 10:52 PM   #13
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Neat technology but no freaking way it cuts distances in half. A lot of time when you see these quots they are refering to people that don't press the pedal hard enough.

Now if they are comparing it to the bleaping ice mode most ABS suffers from then please hurry up and ship it. Ice mode is anoying enough I have just about pulled the abs fuse to disable it.
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      11-09-2006, 10:58 PM   #14
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Like I said before I just copy and pasted. Don't shoot the messenger!

-Pete.
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      11-09-2006, 11:47 PM   #15
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Messenger

Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
Like I said before I just copy and pasted. Don't shoot the messenger!

-Pete.
Pete, I don't think any of us are "shooting the messenger". We just expect that folks on the board for a sophisticated and cutting edge car will have intelligent thoughts about automotive technology in general. Anyone can cut and paste, but when you get excited about marketing hype (which this certainly was) you become less credible.
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      11-09-2006, 11:57 PM   #16
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I gave my intelligent thoughts above, and I contribute to the forum daily with intelligent commentary, discussion, and good facts daily. I'm sorry if you don't agree. If you feel they are unintelligent, then once again, you know what you can do.
I gave the link, presented the facts, and gave my opinions. If it seems skeptical to anyone, its not my problem.

P.S. How is it marketing hype? The brakes aren't even out yet. They are just disclosing information. Whether or not they are facts, have yet to be seen.

Now I know that cutting brake distances in half sounds skeptical, but you never know. Even if it were by a 1/4 that would be amazing. It would give your everyday Honda Civic the stopping power of a current model 997 GT3 with the upgraded brakes!

Getting irritated with your negative posts,

-Pete.
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      11-10-2006, 12:05 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
P.S. How is it marketing hype? The brakes aren't even out yet. They are just disclosing information. Whether or not they are facts, have yet to be seen.
Quite simply if you understand how cars work you would never believe this. The distance it takes a car to stop from 60 is limited by the grip the tires have, not the brake technology. Current brakes can extract far better than 50% of the grip the tires have. Buying into this hype is just showing a general lack of understand of how cars work.

The roles brakes play into the stoping distance are:
1: Reaction time. How long does it take before deacceleration starts.
2: Fade resistance. Not an issue for one 60-0 stop.
3: Modulation. How well the brakes are able to extract the maximal traction from the tires.
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      11-10-2006, 12:16 AM   #18
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Wow, I guess so...Here we go again. I'll C&P what I said to swamp.

There is no need to post comments that are off topic, in an effort to make me look like an inferior enthusiast. I have had a tremendous passion for automobiles and motorsports since I was very young and now I am 20 years old and currently attending technician training to be a BMW tech, and I can guarantee that I don't lack any understanding on the functions of cars or braking for that matter. I am just sharing wishful information, I never said that its true or that I expect you to believe it. I was just sharing the info. So please don't make me out to me an idiot.

Now, you are entitled to your own opinion. But when you put me down there is a problem. So please keep it clean and happy.
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      11-10-2006, 02:02 AM   #19
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replicat, we appreciate your link and I don't think we're trying to shoot the messenger. Just trying to help each other understand that other than reaction time, the limiting factor in the "oh-my-God-slam-on-the-brakes" 60-0 braking is not the brakes itself, but the amount of friction available between the road and the tires.

Think about it this way: why does ABS help reduce braking distances?
It's because during this extreme braking, the current braking system is already so good that the friction between the brake pads and the rotor will actually overcome the friction between the road and the tires!

To the point that the wheel/tire locks up and start sliding instead of rolling. And we know that sliding is disadvantageous. So, as enigma stated, ABS helps to modulate this fine balance between the two frictional forces.

So, in conclusion, the best and easiest way to stop shorter ... is to get better tires ... and a better road surface.
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      11-10-2006, 12:16 PM   #20
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Haha, I know that. I said it Above twice. Along with tires that are capable of stopping with the car, this will be an ultimate saftey feature...

But its ok, I don't like this thread any more.
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      11-15-2006, 11:03 PM   #21
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Replicat,
Thanks for the post.
Good luck with your school too.

The rest of the posts reminded me of this

the messenger.
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      11-16-2006, 07:31 PM   #22
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Hahaha, thanks for the help Michael! Buts its all in fun, and the fellas are kind of right. It is kind of silly to expect half the stopping distances from before...but thats alright. We'll have to wait and see.

-Pete. :rocks:
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