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      11-19-2006, 02:55 PM   #1
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Lightbulb Idea! SMG speed/pressure sensitive paddles

Had posted this in the "SMG or manual poll thread" few days ago, but buried too deep for others to notice, except for M3ichael and replicat.


Just thought of something interesting/cool and wanted to share to see if BMW could implement it into the upcoming SMG IV(?).

Currently with the way SMG functions, there are several manual "programs" which you pre-select depending on how aggresive and fast you want to drive/shift. However, depending on the variability of traffic conditions, you don't want to be locked into any particular program. Sometimes you want to shift aggresively and sometimes smoothly and slowly, depending on your mood and traffic condition at that particular moment. This is something that you can do if you're driving a manual tranny with a clutch pedal. You decide how you want to shift at any moment, not the computer. Which was why I was initially against SMG, because I would lose control of that spontaneity in deciding how I want to shift at any moment.

To come back to my idea: what if the SMG computer can sense how fast or how hard you push or pull the paddles/shifter in order to decide how aggresive you want it to shift? This way you're not locked into any particular mode/program. This way you decide at any moment not only when but also how fast you want to shift. The faster you activate the paddles/shifter, the faster it shifts. Much more control and spontaneity is given back to the driver!

What do you fellas think?
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      11-19-2006, 09:56 PM   #2
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Even better would be a system that monitors a bunch of sources and then decides which mode you are in for both paddle shifting and "auto" mode. You could make a pretty solid assesment of how aggressive one is driving by rpm at shift, gas pedal position and acceleration (smooth or slamming it), lateral g's and fore/aft g's. This would be cool; nice smooth shifts for most of your mellow cruising and normal driving then instantly bumped to a fast (rougher) shift mode and right back down to smooth when your driving settles down.
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      11-19-2006, 11:19 PM   #3
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Like your idea it reminds me of the Playstion contol buttons there pressure sensitive, Comes in handy when playing GT4.
I do think BMW could somehow come up with a pressure sensitive paddle. You could still have the mode/program and select it as a default setting. Like being in S2 then wanting to shift really fast to pass a car S5, then the system would revert back to S2 for better gas milege.

I've driven in S5 (99.9%) since I bought the car if I need more power just a double flip (or one) of the paddle and insta power. The other modes are to jerky and slow I really wanted the feeling of fast shifts when I got the car, even just driving around town (bumper to bumper is another story) but that's just my opinion. Wonder what everyone else thinks.....
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      11-19-2006, 11:24 PM   #4
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Just to give it a bump again. I think that its a brilliant idea.
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      11-20-2006, 01:56 AM   #5
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Thanx swamp2, M3ichael, replicat:

Like your ideas too. Why not have it integrated with accel/lat-g/yaw sensors etc. (ie. DSC) along with the drive-by-wire/throttle/steering sensors so that the computer knows when we're cruising or when we're meaning some serious business driving! Also that would prevent overly aggresive shifts depending on whether the car is in a turn or near the edge of traction limits.

Now we'll need a name for this.

How's about: IA SMG IV, where IA= instantaneous adaptive?:rocks:
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      11-20-2006, 02:57 AM   #6
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Shift at traction limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by visor View Post
Also that would prevent overly aggresive shifts depending on whether the car is in a turn or near the edge of traction limits.
I think that even SMGII took care of this. Rev matching probably alleviates all or almost all problems with shifting during times with less available traction. I have driven a bit of SMGII in the E46 but not enough near the limit. I'm sure someone else can comment on this.
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      11-20-2006, 05:23 AM   #7
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BMW's SMG cars causes them to roll backwards on slope if gas is not applied, because it by virtue a manual car. However, does anyone think BMW will be able to make it such that the new M3 will not roll backwards( I hate that) ?
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      11-20-2006, 05:53 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visor View Post
However, depending on the variability of traffic conditions, you don't want to be locked into any particular program. Sometimes you want to shift aggresively and sometimes smoothly and slowly, depending on your mood and traffic condition at that particular moment.
Um, you can already do all of this with SMG II or III. Instead of the paddle force you just use the gas pedal. Lift a bit during a shift for smoothness or hold it down for speed.

As to those that worry about rolling backwards. Just use your left foot on the brake. Its not doing anything so why not left foot brake all the time. Works great.
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      11-20-2006, 08:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterBMW View Post
BMW's SMG cars causes them to roll backwards on slope if gas is not applied, because it by virtue a manual car. However, does anyone think BMW will be able to make it such that the new M3 will not roll backwards( I hate that) ?
The current E90/92 already has this function. Called Start off Assistant or Hill Assist. Very useful.

I'm sure it'll be on the next M3...
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      11-20-2006, 09:00 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Um, you can already do all of this with SMG II or III. Instead of the paddle force you just use the gas pedal. Lift a bit during a shift for smoothness or hold it down for speed.

As to those that worry about rolling backwards. Just use your left foot on the brake. Its not doing anything so why not left foot brake all the time. Works great.
No, I'm afraid you misunderstood my original post. I'm not concerned with the jerkiness of shifting; we already know that it can be minimized by a slight lift of the throttle during shifting on an SMG.

What I'm concerned about the loss of spontaneity of the driver in deciding when he wants a slooow/smoooth shift while cruuuuiiising, or when he wants a rapid/neck-snapping shift in preparation for a fast lane change to pass a dawdling driver. Read my original post again.

Currently, you're "locked" into one of the S1-S6 modes when you press a button to choose how you want to drive. But in a true manual, you can decide at a moment's whim how fast or slow you shift depending on how you work the shifter/clutch/gas. What I'm suggesting is this driver's "intention" can be similarly communicated to the SMG computer by the speed/pressure of the shift on the paddles.
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      11-21-2006, 03:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visor View Post
No, I'm afraid you misunderstood my original post. I'm not concerned with the jerkiness of shifting; we already know that it can be minimized by a slight lift of the throttle during shifting on an SMG.

What I'm concerned about the loss of spontaneity of the driver in deciding when he wants a slooow/smoooth shift while cruuuuiiising, or when he wants a rapid/neck-snapping shift in preparation for a fast lane change to pass a dawdling driver. Read my original post again.

Currently, you're "locked" into one of the S1-S6 modes when you press a button to choose how you want to drive. But in a true manual, you can decide at a moment's whim how fast or slow you shift depending on how you work the shifter/clutch/gas. What I'm suggesting is this driver's "intention" can be similarly communicated to the SMG computer by the speed/pressure of the shift on the paddles.
My repost from another thread:

Your suggestion exists in SMG transmissions already. When I drive in traffic or in the city, I use the "D" mode and three bars. The second that I want to drive aggressively or pass someone, I downshift using the left paddle. This engages the sequential or manual mode with five bars for me since maintaining S6 requires that traction be deactivated and remain off. When I am done passing or enter a city again, changing back to my city driving mode is a simple press to the right of the center shifter. Pressing to the right toggles between modes and it remembers your program settings for each mode (D1-5 auto, S1-6 sequential). Likewise, shifting using the paddles engages the sequential mode and also remembers your setting S1-6. I hope they continue with this feature in SMG IV.
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      11-21-2006, 10:04 PM   #12
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david06M3,

OK, I see that there are already 2 modes that you can alternate between from the way you describe. But you still have to toggle a switch to get back to your D program, and even then you only have the 2 choices on-the-fly.

What I'm suggesting is a variable mode/program where you can have all 6 (or 10 or whatever number of gradations) modes available at your fingertips via the paddles on-the-fly without toggling a shifter or switch to tell the computer how fast you want to shift on a scale of 1-6 (or 10) instead of either 1 or 5 (as in your case). And the way to achieve this is maybe to have speed/pressure sensitive paddles...
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      11-22-2006, 07:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visor View Post
Thanx swamp2, M3ichael, replicat:

Like your ideas too. Why not have it integrated with accel/lat-g/yaw sensors etc. (ie. DSC) along with the drive-by-wire/throttle/steering sensors so that the computer knows when we're cruising or when we're meaning some serious business driving! Also that would prevent overly aggresive shifts depending on whether the car is in a turn or near the edge of traction limits.

Now we'll need a name for this.

How's about: IA SMG IV, where IA= instantaneous adaptive?:rocks:
sounds good. i am with you bro
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      11-22-2006, 07:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visor View Post
What I'm suggesting is a variable mode/program where you can have all 6 (or 10 or whatever number of gradations) modes available at your fingertips via the paddles on-the-fly without toggling a shifter or switch to tell the computer how fast you want to shift on a scale of 1-6 (or 10) instead of either 1 or 5 (as in your case). And the way to achieve this is maybe to have speed/pressure sensitive paddles...
No offense intended but do you actually own an SMG car? The problem you are complaining about does not exist in the real world. I set mine on S5 and have not changed it out of that mode in over 2 years. You simple use the gas to modulate shift speeds. Problems is already solved.

No need to re-invent the wheel here.
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      11-23-2006, 07:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
No offense intended but do you actually own an SMG car? The problem you are complaining about does not exist in the real world. I set mine on S5 and have not changed it out of that mode in over 2 years. You simple use the gas to modulate shift speeds. Problems is already solved.

No need to re-invent the wheel here.
Nope, don't own an SMG car ... yet.

Question then: why does BMW need programs S1 to S6 if simple throttle modulation can already modulate shift speeds?
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      11-23-2006, 10:24 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visor View Post
Question then: why does BMW need programs S1 to S6 if simple throttle modulation can already modulate shift speeds?
Very few people I know use s1-4. The consensus is they are just there for marketing purposes. S5 (street) and S6 (track) seem to be the only sequential modes people use.

A1-5 do have their uses.

I have said in the past BMW should use the idrive interface to allow the driver to program the SMG shift points and speeds to suite their taste. Its kind of silly to have a good interface for configuring detailed settings and then using it for so very little.

Settings that should be there.

* Auto upshift at redline (on/off)
* Auto downshift under braking when speed reached for lower gear (on/off)
* Modulate shift speed by RPM (high/med/low/off) All current cars are set high.
* Automatic gradient assist (on/off)
* Low speed downshift delay (on/auto/off) One of my biggest pet peves about SMG
* Auto mode slider for shift RPM. Currently this is tied to shift time.
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      11-24-2006, 01:41 AM   #17
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I think that the SMG in anything but S-4,5,6 is terrible, I have only driven 2 smg M3's and I didn't like either. I understand that the SMG III is alot better, but I havent ever driven it.
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      11-24-2006, 07:48 AM   #18
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The hill assist feature on the DSC8+ on the E87 (130i only), E90 and E92 only works with manual gearboxes. It's when you're stopped uphill, brakes on, you can just lift the clutch and you'll be rolling forward for a few seconds almost like an automatic tranny car, without applying gas yourself (as you don't need to apply gas to get started on even ground either, just lift the clutch with the right technique.)

It's not something that would keep you automatically static and not rolling back if you do not apply the brake, thus I do not think it will affect the upcoming SMG IV in any way. You will still need to apply the brake to stay static. I personally often use my slight uphill parking post so that I drive upwards into it, then hit the clutch and let the car roll back downhill a bit and adjust my final parking position, without having to change gears to reverse, so I would hate to see the SMG force you to change to R every time yo wish to go backwards. It should work like a manual in this respect.

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      11-25-2006, 11:49 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visor View Post
david06M3,

OK, I see that there are already 2 modes that you can alternate between from the way you describe. But you still have to toggle a switch to get back to your D program, and even then you only have the 2 choices on-the-fly.

What I'm suggesting is a variable mode/program where you can have all 6 (or 10 or whatever number of gradations) modes available at your fingertips via the paddles on-the-fly without toggling a shifter or switch to tell the computer how fast you want to shift on a scale of 1-6 (or 10) instead of either 1 or 5 (as in your case). And the way to achieve this is maybe to have speed/pressure sensitive paddles...
There are eleven choices on the fly. I have been driving SMG M3's long enough to know which programs suit me in "D" or "S" mode. If my preference changes while I'm driving (on the fly), I can adjust the drivelogic to accomodate me, D1-5, or S1-6.
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      11-25-2006, 04:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david06M3 View Post
There are eleven choices on the fly. I have been driving SMG M3's long enough to know which programs suit me in "D" or "S" mode. If my preference changes while I'm driving (on the fly), I can adjust the drivelogic to accomodate me, D1-5, or S1-6.
And to do that, what do you have to do?
Sorry that I'm asking because I don't drive an SMG car...
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      11-25-2006, 04:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
I have said in the past BMW should use the idrive interface to allow the driver to program the SMG shift points and speeds to suite their taste. Its kind of silly to have a good interface for configuring detailed settings and then using it for so very little.

Settings that should be there.

* Auto upshift at redline (on/off)
* Auto downshift under braking when speed reached for lower gear (on/off)
* Modulate shift speed by RPM (high/med/low/off) All current cars are set high.
* Automatic gradient assist (on/off)
* Low speed downshift delay (on/auto/off) One of my biggest pet peves about SMG
* Auto mode slider for shift RPM. Currently this is tied to shift time.
Very good suggestions you have there!
To tailor the SMG to your liking via i-Drive, that would make me get i-Drive for sure!
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      11-27-2006, 11:33 AM   #22
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Will the new M3 be available with the SMGII or III?

I have read somewhere that only manual 6-gear will be available (because of too much power?) and no automatic gearbox, what is true in this case?

I love the SMG flippers and I hope they will be available on this car next year
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