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      04-28-2006, 08:45 AM   #1
morrisond
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According to BMW Turbo 6 better than V8

If you read the marketing on the new Turbo six(see link below), BMW itself is saying how superior it is to a V8. Makes me wish that BMW was making an M version of that engine with 400-440 HP and 400 Lbs. of torque rather than the rumoured V8, with 400-440 and 320-350 Lbs of torque for the new M3(I have one on Order). According to BMW itself why would you want a V8 when the 6 is perfectedly balanced is 150 lbs less and better on gas and has no lag.

It will be interesting to see how BMW justifies the new M3 V8. Who knows maybe they are pulling a fast one on us, and BMW's reference to a range of six cyclinder Turbo's means the next M3 will have a Turbo 6. Unlikely as M says they like High revving low torque motors. But they also said they would only do SMG's and manual's are coming this fall in the M5 and M6.

Other than it doesn't meet the M Philosophy(although there is no reason you couldn't build an 8,000 RPM Twin Turbo Straight Six based on the Current M3 Motor), I think I would actually prefer an M version of the 335 motor. The extra Torque would be nice.

Thoughts? Who would prefer an M3 with a turbo Six over an eight? Although if the M3 has a flat plane V8 that would be pretty special as well.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sh...d=1#post1696457
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      04-28-2006, 09:00 AM   #2
Damager
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Originally Posted by morrisond
If you read the marketing on the new Turbo six(see link below), BMW itself is saying how superior it is to a V8. Makes me wish that BMW was making an M version of that engine with 400-440 HP and 400 Lbs. of torque rather than the rumoured V8, with 400-440 and 320-350 Lbs of torque for the new M3(I have one on Order). According to BMW itself why would you want a V8 when the 6 is perfectedly balanced is 150 lbs less and better on gas and has no lag.

It will be interesting to see how BMW justifies the new M3 V8. Who knows maybe they are pulling a fast one on us, and BMW's reference to a range of six cyclinder Turbo's means the next M3 will have a Turbo 6. Unlikely as M says they like High revving low torque motors. But they also said they would only do SMG's and manual's are coming this fall in the M5 and M6.

Other than it doesn't meet the M Philosophy(although there is no reason you couldn't build an 8,000 RPM Twin Turbo Straight Six based on the Current M3 Motor), I think I would actually prefer an M version of the 335 motor. The extra Torque would be nice.

Thoughts? Who would prefer an M3 with a turbo Six over an eight? Although if the M3 has a flat plane V8 that would be pretty special as well.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sh...d=1#post1696457
I tend to believe that BMW ///M will stick to its guns about only producing naturally aspirated engines. WHich would mean the rumored V8 will be the engine we will see. It is derived from the V10 which has already been developed, so that makes it alot more feasable as an option as well.

Although In my mind i'd take a 6 over an 8 anyday, I want to wait and see what BMW does with its 8 cylinder M-engine. Its supposed to be actually smaller and lighter then the current i-6 3.2 so it could be a situation where the car feels like it has a 6 cylinder engine in it, but puts out the power of an 8. And if BMW can make it has high revving/fast revving as an i-6, then they will have a winner on their hands that no turbo engine would be able to match.

Besides, the turbos used on the 335i are actually very smal turbos intended to produce acceleration power and dont really contribute power higher up in the bands, so they dont act like the traditional turbos that you see in hopped up japanese cars. The V8 will give power low down and higher up where the M cars shine.
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      04-28-2006, 09:42 AM   #3
morrisond
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What they could do though is use Two Stage Turbo's, one small one for low End Response and then A big one for top end power. A number of cars have used this in the past to great effect (Bugatti EB110 had a total of Four Turbo's, two small, two big)
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      04-28-2006, 03:27 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by morrisond
What they could do though is use Two Stage Turbo's, one small one for low End Response and then A big one for top end power. A number of cars have used this in the past to great effect (Bugatti EB110 had a total of Four Turbo's, two small, two big)
Well the problem is that BMW M cars are the basis for alot of race teams and turbo'd cars are generally not allowed in. So it would go against alot of what BMW competes in. I just dont see turbos coming to the bmw m cars for a little while, not until BMW turns into a money hungry evil empire like mercedes.
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      04-28-2006, 03:37 PM   #5
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Turbos all the wa! Lets look at the record of it now, theres AMG using superchargers and is just outdoing everyone on power. Then you gotmitsubishi and subaru who prove that you can use turbos in mainstream cars that last a long time. reliability and power for cheap, why not? airplane engine manufacturers discovered turbo technology a long tiem and have been using it to up their power for free... BMW needs more turbos to keep up with the competition from AMG. Cmon now
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      04-28-2006, 03:55 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Nushabeh
Turbos all the wa! Lets look at the record of it now, theres AMG using superchargers and is just outdoing everyone on power. Then you gotmitsubishi and subaru who prove that you can use turbos in mainstream cars that last a long time. reliability and power for cheap, why not? airplane engine manufacturers discovered turbo technology a long tiem and have been using it to up their power for free... BMW needs more turbos to keep up with the competition from AMG. Cmon now

Listen, you make a good point about AMG-Mercedes. But the fact is, when I look at that list you show me, all it says is: "These are the companies that have the lack of engineering ability or dedication to get to their goals without FI". Lets make a list of companies who reach their performance goals without FI.. Ferrari, Porsche (Gt3 race cars), Lamborghini, BMW, Audi, Honda/Acura.

Ferrari could easily tack on a turbo on their cars, but why don't they? or anyone else on that list. For mercedes, their cars aren't particularly good as sports cars, are terrible as competitve racing cars and don't really offer much in terms of engineering these days. So what they bank on his high styling (beautiful automobiles) and big HP numbers on paper, the combination of these two has been a windfall for benz. Because these two things are their guiding priciples, they can effectivly throw out other principles held by many automakers. Mercedes for example, has no real AMG heritage on their back, so they can do as they please from that aspect, they also are not involved in any kind of competitve racing so they can forget about designing cars with rules in mind.

BMW-M division on the other hand only exists because of its racing heritage, once that is lost then the entire divisions existence would be in jeopardy (that is the same reason Ferrari still competes in F1 racing, its entire history rests on professional racing). Because of this, BMW will always be involved in racing and will have to build cars that can be raced on a track (ie, no turbos). Now Non-M cars don't have to adhere to this and exist to make the company more profit, so of course the use of turbos, and production of SUVs become more realistic. However BMW-M division will never make a turbo engine, or an X5-M for the same exact reason, it has no purpose to them.
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      04-28-2006, 03:58 PM   #7
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Well obviously people want a turbo M3 car, so why not give it to them, kinda makes sense.......... maybee thats why benz makes so much money huh?
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      05-02-2006, 12:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyL
Well obviously people want a turbo M3 car, so why not give it to them, kinda makes sense.......... maybee thats why benz makes so much money huh?
If you want a Turbo M3 then do it yourself. The same people that would want a turbo M3 really just want a fast turbo coupe and they have never been able to look at bmw for that.

If you are really inclined to re-engineer the already perfect car that is any production m3 to teach BMW a lesson or whatever, go ahead.
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      05-03-2006, 12:32 PM   #9
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BMW-Marketing, i'd say.
....and then they bring up the m3 with even more power, and everybody will be surprised. this will give the m3 even more attention. hit the target. questions?
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      05-31-2006, 02:16 AM   #10
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Ya almost every car manufacture that puts out a car now is using forced induction. It would really be nice to see a Twin Turbo BEAST M3 out..Wow i can only Imagin and would love to have one, But I think there are gonna use the V8 that derives from the V10 on the M5/M6's. That engine will have the TRUE no lag, Crisp Trottle Response that No turbo can provide. I think that engin is gonna have a Beefy low end Torque and Superior High Reving which will be insane. I would love to have eaither one but would prefer the V8.
I personally dont think the Turbo's/Engine in the New BMW's are gonna be like the Supra, STi, Evo etc...Turbos
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      05-31-2006, 11:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack28
Ya almost every car manufacture that puts out a car now is using forced induction. It would really be nice to see a Twin Turbo BEAST M3 out..Wow i can only Imagin and would love to have one, But I think there are gonna use the V8 that derives from the V10 on the M5/M6's. That engine will have the TRUE no lag, Crisp Trottle Response that No turbo can provide. I think that engin is gonna have a Beefy low end Torque and Superior High Reving which will be insane. I would love to have eaither one but would prefer the V8.
I personally dont think the Turbo's/Engine in the New BMW's are gonna be like the Supra, STi, Evo etc...Turbos
Yup the new M3 engine is just the V10 from the M5/M6, except they lopped off 2 cylinders. I prefer the naturally aspirated V8 over any kind of turbo setup too. Plus, having a turbo engine in an M3 just seems odd
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      06-01-2006, 05:50 PM   #12
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any one else not like turbos?

ok when i opened this thread, i thought the response was going to be almost all the same....natural > turbo. Does anyone one else here besides me just not like turbos at all? i mean, granted, you get more torque....and the engine responds more consistently in different temperatures. HOWEVER, here's all the downsides to turbo engines to consider:

1) Forced induction takes away the true sound of the engine....i have yet to hear a turbo engine that sounds better than a normal aspirated one.

2) The way turbo engines work, the use the power from the exhaust, and channel it back into the engine. This creates a lot of added pressure on the engine, and also causes a greater build up of heat. Now i know people are going to argue that this has all been taken care of with modern technology, and the new 335i is really good...blah blah blah.... yes, turbo's are definately not as bad as they were in previous years, HOWEVER, the physics is still the same. No matter how well engineered a turbo engine is, it still gets its power from the same place.

3) They dont feel natural. This may be my own description of what a car should feel like, but i think turbo engines respond very unnaturally. (Note: this may not be true for the new 335i, as i have not driven it yet)

In my opinion, a turbo engine, however well engineered it is, will never overall be better than a naturally aspirated one. it may be a little more powerful, but probably at the cost of something else...ie life span.
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      07-13-2006, 07:01 PM   #13
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personally I understand the heritage of the M and all that, but I love that fact that they are bring an awd twin turbo to the 3 series. and the 300hp out of that engine is way way way "de-tuned" that engine could easly produce 400+ hp but I think the reason they kept it at 300 is they don't want to lose profits from the M3. I will buy the 335xi over the new v8 M3.

turbo just offer so much potential to the person who gets tired of stock hp. with turbos you need about 10 bucks to get an extra 50-60 hp. how much money would it cost you to get that out of a NA
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      07-21-2006, 01:47 PM   #14
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Turbo?

In the spy photos we can see that there is a small radiator (like a turbo intercooler radiator). Check out the spy pics and you'll see that there is a small aluminium radiator in the front bumper! Do you think that the new M3 will be turbo charged or will they continue their "high revving concept"
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      07-21-2006, 04:35 PM   #15
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I agree with Damager!!!!!!!

Quote:
money hungry evil empire like mercedes.
I agree. Most mercedes that come out of their factory are NOT worth the money that they charge.
Mercedes will offer better prices when (hell) freezes over (never).
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      07-24-2006, 09:29 PM   #16
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"M3 On Order"

Hey you said you got an M3 on order, i've gone to 2 dealerships in Los Angeles with one of my buddies and we are bothing going to put down money for one but each one of the dealers said it was too early, how'd you go about puttin ur name down
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      07-25-2006, 06:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakerfan007
Hey you said you got an M3 on order, i've gone to 2 dealerships in Los Angeles with one of my buddies and we are bothing going to put down money for one but each one of the dealers said it was too early, how'd you go about puttin ur name down
that makes no sense dealers should be able to take $1,000 deposits for the m3's. Read around here, there's already wait lists for almost 20 people on them for the new m3.
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      07-25-2006, 08:53 PM   #18
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see that's what i said but they both said that the official waitlist is probably another couple months away after it's debut at an AutoShow, and they didn't even say which one, i even told the guy i'd put up to 5 down and he went back to his manager and told him and again same response, "we aren't taking order's yet"
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      07-25-2006, 11:02 PM   #19
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It not that the dealership can't it that they won't because of the car and the market you are shopping in L.A. The L.A. area is going to be one of the higher demand markets for the M3, dealership are betting they can add huge mark-ups to the car when it arrives, so it is financially smarter for them to not take deposits. I don't know how true this is but I was told every region/dealership is allocated a certain number of M's in a year. And unilke the regular 3 series it is very difficult to increase your allotment even if demand warrants. That is why those people in big markets for the "M" like Los Angeles and New York are I think going to have the hardest time finding a good deal.

Your best bet is call other dealership outside of L.A. and I mean way outside Los Angeles; Sacramento, Roseville, Oregon.
You can be gauranteed as soon as the car is officially released you wont be able to touch one for atleast a year for even close to MSRP (unless your one shrewed negotiator and/or know someone). Good luck!
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      07-28-2006, 03:08 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nushabeh
Turbos all the wa! Lets look at the record of it now, theres AMG using superchargers and is just outdoing everyone on power. Then you gotmitsubishi and subaru who prove that you can use turbos in mainstream cars that last a long time. reliability and power for cheap, why not? airplane engine manufacturers discovered turbo technology a long tiem and have been using it to up their power for free... BMW needs more turbos to keep up with the competition from AMG. Cmon now
If you notice...AMG is gettting away from forced induction...most of their new AMG cars a large displacement naturally aspirated engines.

The ///M cars will and should remain NA...I'd rather have a naturally aspirated engine anyday. I have limited experience with forced induction - but I do have a Subaru Legacy GT Ltd. which has a 2.5L Turbo...250hp. It's pretty fast (13.9 1/4 mile) in stock form and has a lot of torque but the characteristics are much different than the S54. Yes, I can mod it and get a lot more HP out of it pretty easily but the power delivery still feels artificial...and the lag is very annoying.
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      08-22-2006, 02:59 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vantage
Does anyone one else here besides me just not like turbos at all? i mean, granted, you get more torque....and the engine responds more consistently in different temperatures. HOWEVER, here's all the downsides to turbo engines to consider:

1) Forced induction takes away the true sound of the engine....i have yet to hear a turbo engine that sounds better than a normal aspirated one.

2) The way turbo engines work, the use the power from the exhaust, and channel it back into the engine. This creates a lot of added pressure on the engine, and also causes a greater build up of heat. Now i know people are going to argue that this has all been taken care of with modern technology, and the new 335i is really good...blah blah blah.... yes, turbo's are definately not as bad as they were in previous years, HOWEVER, the physics is still the same. No matter how well engineered a turbo engine is, it still gets its power from the same place.

3) They dont feel natural. This may be my own description of what a car should feel like, but i think turbo engines respond very unnaturally. (Note: this may not be true for the new 335i, as i have not driven it yet)

In my opinion, a turbo engine, however well engineered it is, will never overall be better than a naturally aspirated one. it may be a little more powerful, but probably at the cost of something else...ie life span.
I don't want BMW's twin-turbo 335i, nor do I want a turbo'd M car. I had twin sequential turbos on my 1.3-L rotary-powered Type FD Rx7 R1. Turbo power plants are harder to drive well, especially in the wet. I love the naturally aspirated power plant in my current E36 M3/4. Power delivery is linear and predictable. It's easier to drive at full speed on an opentrack. The FD Rx7 was fast--sure--no doubt, but I lost 2 motors to heat soak with that car. Turbos? Never again...
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