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      11-02-2006, 12:12 AM   #23
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The first picture is encouraging that the soft and squishy E46 suspension may be a thing of the past.
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      11-02-2006, 12:21 AM   #24
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OoOoOoR!!! It has an adjustable suspension setup! C'mon lets have some positive thinking! hehe.

But I think that the first pics suspension looks wayy to stiff than most of the buyers would enjoy. And BMW wouldn't make a bad move like that, they most likely 3 different settings. Comfy, Normal, Sport.

Again, just my opinion.

-Pete.
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      11-02-2006, 12:26 AM   #25
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Yes, It could be ARS at work. That system did wonders in the regular cars but got left of the M5/6 for some reason.
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      11-02-2006, 02:19 AM   #26
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Yeah, hopefully that won't be the case this time around.
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      11-03-2006, 02:06 PM   #27
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Quote:
but here the mystery unveiled after the masks are removed

Thats a Pshop and I personally hate dont like it. I really dont like the front bumper. I hope this Pshoper has got it wrong!!!!

Jason
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      11-04-2006, 04:02 PM   #28
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its a cool picture indeed but i dont like it either.
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      11-05-2006, 04:18 AM   #29
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I agree, thats a horrible picture. My buddy printed that exact pic out for me, when he first saw it and was like. "your buying this?" and I showed him the one on my sig and he changed his tune.
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      11-05-2006, 06:36 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
I agree, thats a horrible picture. My buddy printed that exact pic out for me, when he first saw it and was like. "your buying this?" and I showed him the one on my sig and he changed his tune.
yeah, look at it, the grilles wrong and the roofline looks like and e90 but it has just been converted to a coupe. not nice at all. however the e92 is real life has a much nicer roofline, jus look at your sig !

edit: the sideskirts look like theyr from an m5 but been modded to fit. the whole shape is wrong because its for a saloon which would have straight sideskirts, look at the m5 and m6 sideskirts, look how its different for a coupe...
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      11-05-2006, 02:00 PM   #31
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Great comparison and support for the post. But yeah its true that photoshop is ugly, I wish that the pics with the CSL rims could be seen worldwide so people could actually see how gorgeous this baby really is.

On the second hand, maybe I wouldn't want that, because then everybody would be buying it like crazy!
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      11-05-2006, 04:45 PM   #32
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Great comparison and support for the judgement. But yeah its true that photoshop is ugly, I wish that the pics with the CSL rims could be seen worldwide so people could actually see how gorgeous this baby really is.

On the second hand, maybe I wouldn't want that, because then everybody would be buying it like crazy!
lol, thats where the mods come into it i wouldnt mod this car to the max though, i'd only get wheels (CSLs look great!), tires, suspension...etc. would change the look of it with mad bodykits and spoilers....
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      11-20-2006, 09:15 PM   #33
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no sunroof

Im going to have to say no to the whole idea of a sunroof. It makes it more a convertible where is the car is obviously not so why do it? And plus the M is a sports car and making the car a convertible would make it lees of a sports car. This is just my opinion but just think of wind resistance in a convertible compared to that of a hard top. The slower the car the less sporty.
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      11-22-2006, 09:27 PM   #34
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Im going to have to say no to the whole idea of a sunroof. It makes it more a convertible where is the car is obviously not so why do it? And plus the M is a sports car and making the car a convertible would make it lees of a sports car. This is just my opinion but just think of wind resistance in a convertible compared to that of a hard top. The slower the car the less sporty.
well thats only if you can opt out the sunroof by "special ordering."
if new m3 has a CF roof, i am pretty sure that you will have a choice between normal roof w/ sunroof or CF roof without sunroof. (or even more options can be offered)
i am just hoping for bmw to offer CF roof without sunroof. (without deselecting premium package that usually includes sunroof because i hate to miss OEM options. most likely, i will get every single option )
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      12-01-2006, 05:22 PM   #35
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actually fellas, lifting a front wheel like that indicates too soft a rear suspension....
first modification to this car for me will be moton suspension and adequate sways.....clearly, the rear suspension on the car is too soft

most race cars DO NOT behave this way....using the Flat rear tire example on the F1 is a bad example....since the supension in front has limited downside travel (very limited).

now as far as the car in the photo, lifting a front wheel, remember, that is a split second time, it may have happend only for that camera frame.....so is the rear too soft all around the ring? or is it just talledega? probably a combination of both.....
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      12-01-2006, 06:17 PM   #36
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most race cars DO NOT behave this way....using the Flat rear tire example on the F1 is a bad example....since the supension in front has limited downside travel (very limited).
The M3 GTR used to do this in the alms races. Rest assured it was by design. It was not due to "too soft rear suspension". Most RWD street cars do not do this from the factory because they do not have enough grip.

The recipie for lifting a wheel is simply having a lot of roll stifness relative to weight of the car at one end. Its much more common in taller cars like the BMWs than lower cars. I would have to dig but I have a good pick of my E46 up on three wheels just like in the thread. The lotus also 3-wheels around T10 at thunderhill. Its not what I would call "too soft"
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      12-01-2006, 06:36 PM   #37
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The M3 GTR used to do this in the alms races. Rest assured it was by design. It was not due to "too soft rear suspension". Most RWD street cars do not do this from the factory because they do not have enough grip.

The recipie for lifting a wheel is simply having a lot of roll stifness relative to weight of the car at one end. Its much more common in taller cars like the BMWs than lower cars. I would have to dig but I have a good pick of my E46 up on three wheels just like in the thread. The lotus also 3-wheels around T10 at thunderhill. Its not what I would call "too soft"
lifting a wheel, indicates that 1. rear end is too soft. 2. sway's aren't stiff enough. and you said it correctly, the e46m3 is too soft, so yes, it does the same thing.....

gtr lifting a wheel by design? cmon man.

4 wheels corner better than 3.

and quite simply, yes, the lotus suspension is soft......now, throw some 1000lb fronts, and 1200lb rears on as well as adequate sways....bet you don't lift a wheel, and you get faster in the process..

remember, bmw lotus porsche still have to design the car while keeping the daily driveability in mind....

so to simply state, that "ooh, the m3 is lifting a wheel, that's good"...i look at it and say....there's more to be had.

remember, that photo is one frame in time....that in conjunction with talledega dropping away leads to that....but it could be minimized with stiffer sways and suspension....thus leading to better cornering.

notice, the link below, turn 1 laguna, its trying to lift that inside wheel....but notice the frame by frame....how quickly it would happen.

the lifting of the wheel is caused by two things.....one soft suspension and the turn. which looks like talledega or schwaberschwanz. baby carousel, small carousel...whichever you like.
http://www.ptgracing.com/photos/2006/laguna.htm
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      12-01-2006, 07:02 PM   #38
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lifting a wheel, indicates that 1. rear end is too soft. 2. sway's aren't stiff enough. and you said it correctly, the e46m3 is too soft, so yes, it does the same thing.....

gtr lifting a wheel by design? cmon man.
http://www.crash.net/picture_view~pi...string~bmw.htm

The reason people seup BMWs (and Porsche, Lotus) to lift the front wheel is simple. To get power down coming out of a turn its much more important to have weight even between the rear wheels than it is the front wheels. Therefore you tend to run more roll stifness at the front of the car. Typically where you will see them list is just past the apex where they are hard on the throttle providing a little extra weight shift to the rear and then the inside front will lift.

So whats your background that makes you a car setup expert?

BTW: I didn't have stock suspension on either of my cars when they were seen lifting. So no it wasn't the soft stock suspension to blame. However. I have seen people get excessive amounts of air under the fronts of stock E36s this way.

[Edit] You pics are from turn 2 at laguna. T1 isn't a real turn. You are right that most well setup cars don't hold the wheel in the air for extended periods of time. However, lifting isn't bad if its by design. Rest assured in the T2 pic it is.
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      12-01-2006, 08:02 PM   #39
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In picture one would that particular corner have to do with the front wheel coming up. Similiar to cars coming down the corkscrew at Laguna Seca. To me it looks like the angle of the corner drops down a little bit.
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      12-01-2006, 11:12 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
http://www.crash.net/picture_view~pi...string~bmw.htm

The reason people seup BMWs (and Porsche, Lotus) to lift the front wheel is simple. To get power down coming out of a turn its much more important to have weight even between the rear wheels than it is the front wheels. Therefore you tend to run more roll stifness at the front of the car. Typically where you will see them list is just past the apex where they are hard on the throttle providing a little extra weight shift to the rear and then the inside front will lift.

So whats your background that makes you a car setup expert?

BTW: I didn't have stock suspension on either of my cars when they were seen lifting. So no it wasn't the soft stock suspension to blame. However. I have seen people get excessive amounts of air under the fronts of stock E36s this way.

[Edit] You pics are from turn 2 at laguna. T1 isn't a real turn. You are right that most well setup cars don't hold the wheel in the air for extended periods of time. However, lifting isn't bad if its by design. Rest assured in the T2 pic it is.
the picture you linked above.....the whole right side is airborne....looks like they hit the berm big dog....nice try.

me an expert....hardly.

who said aftermarket suspensions aren't soft either....what suspension were you running, which sways.

turn 1 turn 2 ...end of the front straight...whatever you will call it.


chief, you're not going to tell me, that lifting front wheel is "by design" ....now if you said, you may lift the front wheel due to not being able to set up for every turn, limited droop,
then I could agree.....but by design..not gonna fly.....cmon.

granted you can't set a car up for every turn, and limited downtravel, could lift the inside wheel especially in a carousel.....but its not by design...that's simply incorrect. pcars lift the inside wheel?.....

in my experience, 4 corner better than 3......and setting up the car, like you've stated, means there is more work that needs to be done. there are ways to set the car up to do exactly what you are stating..but T Milner isn't going to state..."we lift the inside on purpose"...not gonna happen with the sway package they run...or the spring rates they run.
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      12-02-2006, 02:38 AM   #41
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chief, you're not going to tell me, that lifting front wheel is "by design" ....now if you said, you may lift the front wheel due to not being able to set up for every turn, limited droop,
then I could agree.....but by design..not gonna fly.....cmon.
The 2004 & 2005 national champion SM BMW. Notice the flat surface and steady state turn. The slight lift is very much by design.
http://www.siastuning.com/Vic3.jpg

My m3 at laguna seca back in 2004. It looks like T9 from the pic but its hard to tell. Notice the slight lift of the inside front.
http://www.alternaterealities.info/v...s/IMG_6207.JPG

Elise at T15 thunderhill last month.
http://www.alternaterealities.info/v...s/HT4U6796.JPG

The cars with less than the normal BMW 50/50 weight split are more prone to lifting wheels. This is why you see pcars and the lotus more prone to lifting the front wheels. With less weight on the front and still the same need to keep the rear flat they tend to run out of weight to transfer much faster.

Getting a well setup BMW to lift the front wheel takes a ton of grip. Notice the distortion in the tires in the 2nd pic.

I didn't have any pics of pcars lifting but I have seen it plenty of times at the track. The GT3 is espically prone.

Note: I am not advocating that a BMW should have the same drastic lift you often see in RWD/AWD cars. However a slight lift where the tire is just barely off the ground isn't uncommon or even bad.

ps: Thanks to gotbluemilk for the pictures of my car.

[edit] The M3 was running a ground control suspension with 525/600 springs and very large GC race rate sway bars. The Elise is running a nitron race suspension. 425/600 (a lot for 1900lbs) I never asked vic what he was running in the yellow car.
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      12-02-2006, 01:06 PM   #42
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The 2004 & 2005 national champion SM BMW. Notice the flat surface and steady state turn. The slight lift is very much by design.
http://www.siastuning.com/Vic3.jpg

My m3 at laguna seca back in 2004. It looks like T9 from the pic but its hard to tell. Notice the slight lift of the inside front.
http://www.alternaterealities.info/v...s/IMG_6207.JPG

Elise at T15 thunderhill last month.
http://www.alternaterealities.info/v...s/HT4U6796.JPG

The cars with less than the normal BMW 50/50 weight split are more prone to lifting wheels. This is why you see pcars and the lotus more prone to lifting the front wheels. With less weight on the front and still the same need to keep the rear flat they tend to run out of weight to transfer much faster.

Getting a well setup BMW to lift the front wheel takes a ton of grip. Notice the distortion in the tires in the 2nd pic.

I didn't have any pics of pcars lifting but I have seen it plenty of times at the track. The GT3 is espically prone.

Note: I am not advocating that a BMW should have the same drastic lift you often see in RWD/AWD cars. However a slight lift where the tire is just barely off the ground isn't uncommon or even bad.

ps: Thanks to gotbluemilk for the pictures of my car.

[edit] The M3 was running a ground control suspension with 525/600 springs and very large GC race rate sway bars. The Elise is running a nitron race suspension. 425/600 (a lot for 1900lbs) I never asked vic what he was running in the yellow car.


1. first pic is autox....whole different setup in autox than highspeed ...and you're right, at 35 whopping mph, you need to be able to do that...autox setup is completely different and doesn't apply to the ring

2. 425/600 spring setup is Soft. effectively that is 300 at the wheel in back, trying to control a 3500lb with driver in car, that is a street spring...due to the spring being at the midpoint...I've got the GC bars, GC hecka up front, which wasn't available in 04, and 1.125 .1875 wall in back 1100lb up front, 1200in back on motons....chances are you didnt' have those bars, although you may be able to still get them, maybe. the ptg cars you see in the photos i posted are running solid (not hollow) front and rear bars with blade adjustment in the rear......the spring rate they are on with a true coilover in back is about 700. and being that it is a true coilover, it works out to about 700 at the wheel......on a 2400llb car....this would be like you putting a 1400 on the back of yours. up front they are in the 900-1200 range....it just depends on the bumpiness of the circuit.

so yes, its lifting because the setup is soft.


elise is showing me the same thing....sways aren't able to control the roll at that point, leading to the lifting of the inside....granted, that may be the sacrifice for a given car at a given circuit....you can't set the car up for every turn...

if its coming from the bmw factory, the suspension compared to other bmw's may be sportier, but its not stiff..

you will often see the lifting of inside wheel usually at the slowest part of the track, often a carousel, where car is loaded completely to one side....however, you won't usually see it on pure race cars.....street cars like the gt3, with stock suspension, is soft, lotus with stock suspeny is soft...can guarantee the last pic'd car doesn't lift....nor do any of the alms/lemans/etcetc porsches'.....

front sway.



rear sway





hehe, 1200lb, my car.




Enigma, its no use...i've got springenvy, i am seeking help. thought you'd get a kick out of that.

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      12-02-2006, 04:16 PM   #43
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Funny part of this thread is we both probably use the same shops. Rennwerks used to do much of the work on my car.

What I am trying to say is I have seen a lot of well setup cars lifting the front wheels. As the speed increases the chances of this happening are reduced both due to aero and less power available to transfer weight to the rear. Obviously if they though it was a problem they would have fixed it.

I don't want to hijack this into a car setup thread.

My E46 was too soft for the track and too stiff for the street. Its why I bought the Elise and put the stock suspension back on the BMW. I don't consider the elise too soft. Its already at the point its starting to skip in the bumpy turns.
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      12-02-2006, 04:21 PM   #44
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true true...didn't mean to get into hijacking the thread...no disrespect intended. sweet lotus by the way.
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