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      01-13-2006, 04:28 PM   #1
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SMG III?

E90Fleet? Wondering if the new M, if offerred with a non-manual version, will it have the current SMG that's available in the current 5/6 series? I have been curious ever since the older SMG has been discontinued for the E46 Coupe (and discontinued during the advent of the E90). Be it ZSG or what not, I hope BMW is going to release some sort of twin-clutch-based, clutch-foot-free system for the E90 335 or the M3.
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      01-13-2006, 05:04 PM   #2
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the M cars have a different SMG than in the 5/6/Z4/E46

with the latest M cars coming in SMG only............ the 3 may be SMG only too (at first, but they'll probably cave and give all 3 options eventually)
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      01-13-2006, 05:06 PM   #3
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I would sure think that the m3 would have the same smg as the M5 and M6
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      01-13-2006, 05:37 PM   #4
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I have read that the M3 will have the M5 7 speed SMG and manual offerred concurrently at launch.

BMW is working on a dual clutch new-gen SMG, but it currently is not able to handle the torque of the M line of cars.
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      01-13-2006, 07:19 PM   #5
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I'd imagine then, that this new-gen SMG should be available for the E90 in the future (i.e. 335?). I hope.
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      01-14-2006, 07:16 PM   #6
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DSG box in M cars would be pretty cool.
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      01-15-2006, 08:41 PM   #7
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BMW latest gearbox in development is a dual clutch basically like audis DSG. So look for that in a slightly later model. Until then expect SMGIII as an option and a base manual. Thats my guess anyway
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      01-15-2006, 10:20 PM   #8
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that audi DSG is actually owned by getrag, and could be sourced to any manufacturer for the right $$$$$$$


audi didn't develop anything, the tranny manufacturer did
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      01-16-2006, 02:08 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ward
audi didn't develop anything, the tranny manufacturer did
True, I just think VWAG was the first to use it in its cars, of course the sometimes retarded(in this instance) automotive press will give them proverbial rights to the well recieved transmission.

Upon further thought I've heard it mentioned before that BMW M doesn't find this transmission suited to the character of the brand. M is suppose to be hard edged thrills, a transmission that doesn't give the driver the "feel" of the gearshift changes wouldn't be too incredibly on brand, but who knows, it could happen if M finds a way to tune it to suit the character of its cars.
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      02-13-2006, 10:14 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ward
that audi DSG is actually owned by getrag, and could be sourced to any manufacturer for the right $$$$$$$


audi didn't develop anything, the tranny manufacturer did
This is incorrect, it was developed by Borg Warner and Audi as a joint venture and Audi/Vw has the rights to the technology at the time being
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      02-13-2006, 10:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul
This is incorrect, it was developed by Borg Warner and Audi as a joint venture and Audi/Vw has the rights to the technology at the time being
ENHHHH!!! WRONG!!! LoL, the dual clutch gear box was actually developed by Porsche, and Porsche was the first to use it, what car? I don't know....
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      02-13-2006, 10:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90-4life
ENHHHH!!! WRONG!!! LoL, the dual clutch gear box was actually developed by Porsche, and Porsche was the first to use it, what car? I don't know....
What are you 12? The DSG transmission was developed by AUDI/VW and Borg Warner. It is actually known as Dual Tronic by Borg Warner but marketed under the DSG nomenclature by Audi/VW. The current unit is able to be manufactured because of the joint venture. As for Porsche using it first that is farse. Historically, the first semi-automatic transmission which was marketed was the 1941 M4/Vacamatic Transmission by Chrysler. It was an early attempt at an automatic transmission that still required the use of a clutch, primarily to start and stop. Later, the Volkswagen Beetle came with an optional "Autostick", which was essentially a clutchless manual with three forward gears. Porsche and Audi have used transmissions based on similar dual clutch principles in racecars during the 1980s. Porsche's vaunted and incredibly successful 956 and 962C race cars benefited from the Porsche Dual Klutch, or PDK, transmission. In 1985, Audi itself used a dual clutch transmission in the Pike's Peak Hillclimb winning Sport quattro S1 rally car. In both instances, since dual clutch transmissions provide "shift without lift" or uninterrupted power flow to the wheels through all the gears, these transmissions were extremely well suited for keeping the racecars' turbocharged motors "on the boost." Serial production of a dual clutch or DSG transmission has been untenable to date due to insufficient means of mechanical (proper clutch actuation requires precise control of the simultaneous engagement and disengagement of the clutches), as well as electronic controls. Audi proves its technical expertise and prowess by bringing this first-ever commercial application to the streets along with Borg Warner.
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      02-13-2006, 11:36 PM   #13
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Some people just can't handle not being right, that's real immaturity, but I'm not here for petty arguments such as this. It's a fact that Porsche was the first to use this technology, NOT VW/Audi.
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      02-14-2006, 01:20 AM   #14
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"Direct-Shift Gearbox
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Direct-Shift Gearbox (Direktschaltgetriebe) is a semi-automatic transmission invented by BorgWarner and initially licenced to Volkswagen (which also owns the Audi, Seat, Bentley and Skoda brands). By using two clutches, fast shifts can be achieved, and the inefficient torque converter of a regular automatic transmission is eliminated.

Essentially, the engine drives two clutch packs simultaneously. The outer clutch pack drives gears 1, 3, and 5 (and reverse). The inner clutch pack drives gears 2, 4, and 6. Instead of a standard large clutch plate, each clutch pack is a collection of four smaller stacked clutch plates, due to space constraints. Because the alternate clutch pack's gearing can be pre-selected, upshifts occur in an impressive 8ms, though downshifts still take 600 to 900ms.

This type of transmission is finding increasing popularity in Europe, and apparently also in America although some say CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) is more popular in the US. BorgWarner who call their technology "DualTronic" have just (Aug 2005) signed further agreements with two other (unnamed) European Automotive manufacturers to incorporate their gearbox. VW group vehicles available in Europe with the DSG gearbox include:

Audi TT and A3
VW Passat, Golf/Jetta and Touran
Seat Altea, Toledo and Leon
Skoda Octavia and Fabia. "

I'm not saying its right or wrong as its wikipedia but hey, just thought I'd mention it!
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      02-14-2006, 01:24 AM   #15
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Thanks.
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      02-14-2006, 08:01 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90-4life
Some people just can't handle not being right, that's real immaturity, but I'm not here for petty arguments such as this. It's a fact that Porsche was the first to use this technology, NOT VW/Audi.
Sorry you are the immature one, the post I was referring to originally was the one that stated that Getrag developed the transmission for Audi and that they (Getrag) owned the rights and anyone could by those rights with enough money. Never was mentioned who first used the technology, that is irrelevant since the original technology was never intended for street use, I was not arguing just validating that point. There are a lot of rude people who state things that are invalid with no proof and then they are taken as fact. If I did not post what I did people would believe that the DSG is a Getrag designed and produced product which is untrue. My post was to correct that inaccuracy then you came in and said I was incorrect ERRRRRRR wrong, immature a bit. So please re-read the thread and find where it says anything about who had the technology first.... nowhere then realize the technology has been around for almost 60 years but inapplicable to street cars because of the original rudimentary designs and the technology was not there /affordable. Borg Warner/ Vw and Audi changed this and they have created the future of transmissions; Ford will producing one as well. Have a nice day.
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      02-14-2006, 11:33 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul
Sorry you are the immature one, the post I was referring to originally was the one that stated that Getrag developed the transmission for Audi and that they (Getrag) owned the rights and anyone could by those rights with enough money. Never was mentioned who first used the technology, that is irrelevant since the original technology was never intended for street use, I was not arguing just validating that point. There are a lot of rude people who state things that are invalid with no proof and then they are taken as fact. If I did not post what I did people would believe that the DSG is a Getrag designed and produced product which is untrue. My post was to correct that inaccuracy then you came in and said I was incorrect ERRRRRRR wrong, immature a bit. So please re-read the thread and find where it says anything about who had the technology first.... nowhere then realize the technology has been around for almost 60 years but inapplicable to street cars because of the original rudimentary designs and the technology was not there /affordable. Borg Warner/ Vw and Audi changed this and they have created the future of transmissions; Ford will producing one as well. Have a nice day.

Keep going....
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      04-15-2006, 06:27 PM   #18
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I can almost guarantee that the car will come with a 6-speed manual AND a new SMG IV system. "///M" stands for Motorsport, but it also stands for Marketing. They will want to produce a car thats all new, and engine thats all new and a transmission thats all new.
 
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      04-16-2006, 08:02 AM   #19
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cool stuff, havent driven a car with SMG III yet (aka the m5) but i heard is pretty smooth, why would they need to go to SMG 4. on a side note remeber when bmw said that all M cars of the future would have SMG only, no regular stick shifter. what happened to that claim lolz
 
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      04-17-2006, 09:21 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmerista
I have read that the M3 will have the M5 7 speed SMG and manual offerred concurrently at launch.

BMW is working on a dual clutch new-gen SMG, but it currently is not able to handle the torque of the M line of cars.
Actually just to keep up with Audi cars they will need to have this dual clutch system ready for the new M3, so its basicly a sure thing that there will be a new dual clutch SMG system
 
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      04-24-2006, 10:48 AM   #21
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From the Getrag website I found the following - The 6MT from the E39 M5 and the E46 M3 are Getrag Type 226 transmissions http://www.getrag.com/176 and the SMG II is a Type 226 AMT. SMG III = Type 247 AMT http://www.getrag.com/183/183

I wonder if there is a Type 247 (non-AMT/SMG) 7 speed traditional manual... wouldn't that be weird? Something tells me no because the shift gate would be huge

Anyway, everything I've read has stated the new M3 will have a 6MT standard and SMG III as an option. The M3 is a bit more of a drivers car than the M5 or M6 so I think there would be blood in the streets if 6MT wasn't available.

As for a BMW dual clutch gearbox, (SMG IV?) My guess is it'll be an option when they "facelift" all three M cars.
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      05-17-2006, 04:19 AM   #22
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funny thread......

it was Porsche that designed the PDK tranny, for Touring car racing in the early 80's.

How it got bounced around to Borg and Getrag, who knows.
But, the Pcars WE'RE the first cars to use a Twin Clutch system.

Argue all you want, but the PDK's have been around since the early 80's.

My last 3 cars, before this BMW were Audi's. I know all about the heritage/lineage of the DSG.

But, I'm a Bimmer man now...... can't wait to take Euro delivery of my new M3 sedan !! SMG7 or 6mt.........

kj
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