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      11-06-2006, 01:57 PM   #1
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Inflated Car Prices Overseas?

Kinda getting bored over here waiting for a new picture or something, and since we have nothing to talk about. I have a question.

I notice that alot of you guys in Europe, Austrailia, and Asia are suffering inflated car prices? I guess the US just complains so much about prices going up, I never realized how low our prices really are (The base E92 M3 will most likely be around US$55,000).

I can't beleive what you guys pay over seas. I'm just curious to know if all prices are high in those places or just cars. Are all contries like that or what? And what are the reasons? All taxes?

Chime in on what you pay for cars, homes, and what is the average income annually in your area. Give a few examples.

2006 E46 M3 Base Price is US$49K Mild markups to low US$50Ks
2006 E60 M5 Base Price is US$81K Mild markups to mid US$80Ks
2006 E63 M6 Base Price is US$94K Seeing markups to US$115K+

Home prices vary in the US but I would say that average would go between US$300,000-$800,000 for a nice home. The more expensive the homes, would be toward the coasts (California and New York)

And the average annual income for US households is US$50-65,000.

I know that its a bit off topic But please don't move it administrators! It will die out in the off-topic area.

Thanks alot guys...:rocks:

-Pete
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      11-06-2006, 05:03 PM   #2
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If you look, post!
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      11-06-2006, 07:44 PM   #3
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not sure if the large US balance of trade deficit and/or (foreign) debt has something to do with this.
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      11-06-2006, 08:50 PM   #4
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Christ!!!!!!! I can't believe those numbers, its a shame to hear them, but hopefully you guys are making out well enough to offet those taxes a bit. Here in the US, experienced BMW master techs make anywhere from $90-150K. Depending on hour many hours you flag.

I have to tip my hat to this government. I used to bitch about it because it was pretty hard for me and my mother growing up (She only made about $35K a year) But now that I have come into my own, I see that it really is well thought out and is truly the home of the free.

Thanks to all of you that chimed in.

-Pete.
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      11-07-2006, 05:34 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
Christ!!!!!!! I can't believe those numbers, its a shame to hear them, but hopefully you guys are making out well enough to offet those taxes a bit. Here in the US, experienced BMW master techs make anywhere from $90-150K. Depending on hour many hours you flag.

I have to tip my hat to this government. I used to bitch about it because it was pretty hard for me and my mother growing up (She only made about $35K a year) But now that I have come into my own, I see that it really is well thought out and is truly the home of the free.

Thanks to all of you that chimed in.

-Pete.

Here an experienced BMW master tech makes about 2.5 - 3k euros a month, meaning 36.000 euros a year, tops, out of which he'll pay about 33% of income salary right off the bat, then 22% out of every good or service he buys or uses money on, and at last, 100% additional (+22%) if he wants to buy a car. And if you're a more entry-level junior tech, you're looking at more like 2k to 2.500 euros a month. Welcome to social democracy.

All the BMW salesguys and people who work for them here, even people who have been with the company longer than I have lived drive 320i's, 320d's and one guy happens to have a 325i E90, and that's considered a major fucking luxury! - this in part answers the often heard question "why does BMW offer ridiculous non-engine equipped models such as 116i, 118d, 318d, 320i, 523i etc. in Europe?) Because 95% of people can't afford any better if they want a new BMW!

Many of you may have heard of how idiot communist Europeans say how they "hate America" or "hate G.W. Bush" because "there is no social security and the american way of life is facistic". Well, if any of these people would actually have lived in America or visited there longer than for one week, they'd know the truth. The truth is, in the US, your employer most of the time will give you your healthcare insurance, so you don't have to pay for it (which is widely spread bullshit in Europe), and most of the time you're making so much money anyway that you can afford to throw a few grand to the doctor if you need to. In the US money goes around faster and in much larger quantities, which is good for everyone, even the poor. The official poverty line (I don't remember the number, I think it was around $30k a year) is what 80-90% of Europeans are making as their standard income! They would kill to stay in the US if they just knew how things are in real life.

Too bad Green Cards and permanent resident visas are now very hard to get (especially after 9/11, Jesus, I lost people I knew from my business in those towers, I took it very personally!) If I had one, I sure as hell wouldn't be slaving in Europe. And if I got one right now, I'd drive to the airport at this same second and fly straight to Dulles International Airport in Northern Virginia (Through London) on BA First Class, and never come back. Or perhaps once a year in the Summer to visit relatives and so.

Best regards,

Jussi
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      11-07-2006, 05:36 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by aranetaj View Post
not sure if the large US balance of trade deficit and/or (foreign) debt has something to do with this.

Yes, it surely has in part, because that's how the government pays for things, because it doesn't tax. In the short term, it's fantastic for people, but in about 20-30 years the party will be over Unfortunately. The first signs are already there, the skyrocketing interest rates, decrease in homeownership and the average American household debt which is also at world-record levels (not to mention the Government's debt.) But right now the going is still good.

Best regards,

Jussi
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      11-07-2006, 07:39 AM   #7
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you guys in america are lucky to be geting the m3 for $50,000+.

I live in dubai and over here the full option (the only model available here) costs $90,500.
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      11-07-2006, 08:52 AM   #8
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But gas costs like less than water in Dubai, right?

Jussi
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      11-07-2006, 12:19 PM   #9
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1 gallon of fuel costs $2 over here but comon the lower fuel costs doesnt compensate for double the price of an M3
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      11-07-2006, 02:36 PM   #10
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Man Jussi, I feel for you man, And it truely does sadden me to hear stuff like that. I wish you could be over here mate, half of the fucking idiots who live here don't appreciate what this country offers them. They just bitch about all of the minor things that "go wrong" I would trade 100 ungreatful americans for one greatful american anyday...

I think that in about 15-20 years the taxes on the dollars are going to go up to an average of about 11% which everyone would bitch about, but I think it will be okay, because so many problems will be solved.

As for Social Security, bwahaha its a joke, My grandma and grandpa get a combined $1400 a month. She works as a private nurse though and makes about 50K a year untaxed, and all private.

Its a shame that the US doesn't allow the good folks like yourselves over here, yet they allow 7% of the unemployed sit around taking our fucking money.
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      11-07-2006, 04:08 PM   #11
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good reply and i understand your problem with the lazy unemployed.
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      11-07-2006, 06:44 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
As for Social Security, bwahaha its a joke, My grandma and grandpa get a combined $1400 a month. She works as a private nurse though and makes about 50K a year untaxed, and all private.
It ain't good here either, even though if you look at the taxes, it should be really fucking good, but it's not. A base retirement is about 33% of your pre-retirement salary. So if you made 4-5 grand a month, you'll drop to poverty levels per family. That's why most people need to use private pension funds to put money into and do at least some kind of investment to try to have something for their older days.

Everything that's bad there, is much, much worse here - believe me. I've worked in the US for over 4 years and owned a business there and I own a business here (and have owned/or operated offices in London, UK and Frankfurt, Germany as well) so I know both sides of the coin very well.

The only thing I'd say is worse sometimes in US can be the feeling of non-security and the gun violence that is totally out of hand. As a shooter myself, I believe people should have legal private firearm ownership (and thank God it's not limited THAT badly here - but it is in some European countries, such as Germany where a civilian cannot own any weapon that uses any military or law enforcement CALIBER, which pretty much rules out anything but .380, .25 and .22 for pistols and strange hunting calibers (which you can't get fun (fun as in practical rifle shooting hobby) assault rifles for) for rifles.

For me, it feels strange how most of the downtowns of cities in the US can have neighborhoods that are made of gorgeous marble and are very upscale business areas, but can have a ghetto area just 2 blocks away (I'm thinking of Wash, DC here, but many cities do seem to have a more "dangerous" areas closer to downtown and the nice areas in the suburbia). For example, for the first time I was in LA I was driving without a map in a loaned BMW 330Ci Convertible, things got pretty scary when I almost lost my way south of the business district... the streets didn't look nice... The povery that is in the us is more violent than here... That's unfortunate. But everybody at least has a chance in the US. Here, you're just punished for working. The more you work, the more you pay income taxes, take that!

But this is getting really

Let's go on-topic while I have the time to still write this before departing.

While picking up a customer car for testing (claimed some strange electrical issues.) today I talked about the new M3 with several people - highlights:

It could be that it's release will be pushed back to April and New York auto show, but not confirmed. People still have their Geneva tickets. The VIP private showing of demo cars has been re-scheduled for early April over here, with pre-invitations re-sent and asked people to still wait for the actual date TBD. The engine will be 450hp at the least and both manual and SMG will be offered. SMG will certainly be developed from the SMG III - during the SMG III program the gearbox department apparently didn't feel like they had adequate time finishing the product and would have liked to incorporate much more features that time didn't allow (kind of like back with the SMG II on the E46.)

The Coupé version should have perks and default options that the Sedan won't (depending on the market), and it'll come out first - it'll also be a little more expensive. There are rumors that the Coupé might be lighter overall as well (!)

On other M-related issues:
BMW is reportedly working on a hard roof Coupé/Convertible version of the 6-series because the E93 will instantly make the current rag-top 6er obsolete and it has already become non-desirable among the potential buyer segment because of this. BMW has a new target to leave the Z4 and the upcoming 2er (if it'll be the 2er) the only Cabriolets with ragtops.

On other news, the Z4 3.0si Coupé and Roadster still have silver painted PLASTIC front grilles on the front kidneys (LOL)... Drave a Z4 3.0si Coupé today (that was the customer car with the "electric problems") and God I hate the electronic steering aid on it. It's like slush compared to the Z4 M Coupé - or any real BMW for that matter. There should be a general Internet warning for people not to buy these disasters, but just the M model of the Z4. Unless they wish a complete non-BMW-like steering.

P.S.
VAG's CEO resigned today admist corruption scandals and financial problems. BMW stock is doing well and going up almost daily. - Also, Porsche is considering raising it's stake in the VAG group up to 29.9% which would make it a third owner of the huge European car-maker made up of merged companies that is destined for crapdom (And has already slided there well for several years), just like huge American car-makers that were made up of merged companies. Mergers are not always the answer, they tend to kill innovation and get rid of the talented people, and keep in the losers in any given company.

P.P.S.

Saddam is soon joining Satan in Hell, as South Park: The Movie predicted years ago! Good job US!

Good riddance!

Thanks and Best regards,

Jussi
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      11-07-2006, 07:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JK42 View Post


Truth of the matter is, of any major country, US is the cheapest to buy cars and gasoline in. And also, the income levels are way higher and taxes way lower than any other developed nation. This doesn't account few mid-eastern nations that have oil as their national reserve, but counting them out, US wins hands down. Easiest measure is the gross national product per citizen, which is about double in the US that it is in most European countries.

For example, in my line of work I could easily make (and made) $200k + $100k bonuses a year in the US, but I'm pressed to make even $150k with bonuses in Europe. And the car taxes and gas prices are more or less insane in most European countries.

If you have any level of education, (if you're a lawyer, doctor or such) you can make $600k to $1M a year in the US. Not even close in Europe. The US has a true middle class, most of Europe does not, or it is "lower middle" class.

In any European country you as a BMW tech could only dream of purchasing a new E92 M3. Most of the BMW techs I know drive either very old M cars (10 years or older) and have tuned the heck out of them, or drive regular BMW's such as 130i, E46 330Ci etc.

A USED 2004 545i driven 30k miles goes for around 70.000 euros (about $80.000) over here.

New M5 is 130.000 euros with base options, new M6 is 170.000 euros with base options. A Ferrari F430 (one in this country registered at this time) is about 250-350.000 euros depending on the options.

Best regards,

Jussi
Hey Jussi,
just wondering where you get your numbers and what your sources are? A lawyer/doctor making 600K-1M a year on average? Also, in Germany the prices in Euros for M5 and M6 are surely not as high as your described:
The M6 base is 112,000 Euros for example. I do agree however that cars are cheaper in the US, plus cheaper to maintain (Gas $2,60/gallon)...

best Wishes

CSL-Fanatik
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      11-07-2006, 07:39 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL-Fanatik View Post
Hey Jussi,
just wondering where you get your numbers and what your sources are? A lawyer/doctor making 600K-1M a year on average? Also, in Germany the prices in Euros for M5 and M6 are surely not as high as your described:
The M6 base is 112,000 Euros for example. I do agree however that cars are cheaper in the US, plus cheaper to maintain (Gas $2,60/gallon)...

best Wishes

CSL-Fanatik
I wasn't saying making on an average, but that "can make" if you are an excellent, experienced doctor or a lawyer. I.E. Good in what you do. In Europe, you won't be making that in most countries even if you're the surgeon general of the nation. Like Arnie said "I'd rather be the governor of California, than own the whole country of Austria." He knows what he's talking about.

In Germany, the prices for M5 and M6 and all cars are decent, because it's a domestic industry, obviously. It's just Finland, Denmark, Greece and few other asshole countries of EU where the car taxes are 100% or more. Only gas is as expensive as in all European countries in Germany (which is why many Germans, being financially savvy, favor Diesels these days, thus the resurgence and incredible development of Diesel-engines in the last 7+ years, driven by BMW AG.) Just look at the 745d... In-f**king-credible engine.

Best regards,

Jussi
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      11-07-2006, 07:49 PM   #15
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1 gallon of fuel costs $2 over here but comon the lower fuel costs doesnt compensate for double the price of an M3
Hey, try paying $6-$7 a gallon like in Finland and then still paying $145k for a new M5, $190k for a new M6 and around $110k for the new M3. Best of both worlds! Every time I gas up Shell V-power 99+ Octane (RON, not ROZ Octanes), I throw away an average of 52 euros (around $65?) for 40 liters (10 gallons) of fuel. And 98E or 95E are only few cents per liter cheaper. Even Diesel (that is legal to use in automobiles, they have actually added a trace chemical to it so it can be recognized, so you won't burn up your house warming diesel in your car, or you'll be fined SEVERELY, because then you'd be dodging the car diesel fuel taxes) costs about $1.1 a liter ($4.40 a gallon).

Best regards,

Jussi
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      11-07-2006, 11:37 PM   #16
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Financially Jussi is 100% right about all of the taxes here in the states, (income, etc..) This country is damn good as far as tax goes anywhere else in the world.

Being a doctor or lawyer here in the states is waaaay better than anywhere in the world, thats why people study in other countries and become doctors here in the states, not because they give a rats ass about helping the greedy US population. Doctors in india make half or less than half of what doctors make over here.

What is the difference between RON and ROZ Octanes, ?

Just hearing about the gas prices and taxes over there, makes me look out my window, and thank god that I have been so blessed to be in the place I am now.

P.S. Spinal Surgeons can earn more than 2.5 million per year depending on locatoin and work. Top end lawyers that work for big companies, make 7 figures as well.
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      11-08-2006, 12:22 AM   #17
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BTW I forgot to mention, it's funny that when I worked in the US, I employed over 30 people directly or indirectly at best (US citizens all), so the oft-stated argument of foreign labor taking away american jobs is total BS... These people all lost their jobs when our common company went under.... Google up on the RON/ROZ issue, it's pretty simple.. I'm off to bed now, gotta work a long day tomorrow.

Best regards,

JK
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      11-08-2006, 12:45 AM   #18
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Alrighty take it easy.
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      11-08-2006, 06:46 AM   #19
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England:

M3 list around $85k
My 3 year old M3-SMG is worth around $50k

how much is full tank in the US?
around $110 here (London)

Insurance:
$3300 per year (27 year old - London)

Road Tax (no sure if you have this in the states):
$360 per year

and I just paid $2300 for a BMW main service

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      11-08-2006, 07:51 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JK42 View Post


Truth of the matter is, of any major country, US is the cheapest to buy cars and gasoline in. And also, the income levels are way higher and taxes way lower than any other developed nation. This doesn't account few mid-eastern nations that have oil as their national reserve, but counting them out, US wins hands down. Easiest measure is the gross national product per citizen, which is about double in the US that it is in most European countries.

For example, in my line of work I could easily make (and made) $200k + $100k bonuses a year in the US, but I'm pressed to make even $150k with bonuses in Europe. And the car taxes and gas prices are more or less insane in most European countries.

If you have any level of education, (if you're a lawyer, doctor or such) you can make $600k to $1M a year in the US. Not even close in Europe. The US has a true middle class, most of Europe does not, or it is "lower middle" class.

In any European country you as a BMW tech could only dream of purchasing a new E92 M3. Most of the BMW techs I know drive either very old M cars (10 years or older) and have tuned the heck out of them, or drive regular BMW's such as 130i, E46 330Ci etc.

A USED 2004 545i driven 30k miles goes for around 70.000 euros (about $80.000) over here.

New M5 is 130.000 euros with base options, new M6 is 170.000 euros with base options. A Ferrari F430 (one in this country registered at this time) is about 250-350.000 euros depending on the options.

Best regards,

Jussi
you kidding?!
why is it SO EXPENSIVE OVER THERE?!
how much is M5 if you get it from germany?

back on topic, i am from Fairfax County in Virginia. 2nd richest county in US :rocks:
i dont know about actual average income but i know that its up there
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      11-08-2006, 07:54 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manz_UK View Post
England:

M3 list around $85k
My 3 year old M3-SMG is worth around $50k

how much is full tank in the US?
around $110 here (London)

Insurance:
$3300 per year (27 year old - London)

Road Tax (no sure if you have this in the states):
$360 per year

and I just paid $2300 for a BMW main service

hm...i will throw in some numbers here.
currently, i drive infiniti g35 coupe loaded which is $45,000 OTD
full tank...about half of 110 w/ 93 octane. LOL (20 gallons)
insurance...$1000 and i am 19 (no accident, no ticket for last 4+ years)

i guess i am lucky to be in US
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      11-08-2006, 09:18 PM   #22
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Wow, you are lucky to have all that at 19. Parents I assume? Its okay I'll beat you, in about a year and a half! :rocks:

And the reason everything over there is so expensive is because of the ridiculous taxes. As Jussi stated before the tax on cars in Finland, is 100% and 22% on goods and services.

You better be thankfull you we're born in this country!

-Pete.
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