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      04-11-2014, 12:59 PM   #1
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Blackstone Report: 77k miles - 6th update 11.2.17

Just had my first oil analysis done and it doesn't look too good.

I had switched over to M1 0w40 with this oil change (which was my original plan anyways). Planning to have it checked again in around 5k miles and hopefully the lead content drops.

What levels of lead should you have in order to be in the "safe zone?"

What do you guys think?


UPDATE: 9/30/2014

As promised here is my Blackstone analysis after switching over to Mobil 1.
The lead count looks a lot better, it's obviously not conclusive evidence but there has been a big drop in lead content after switching from the TWS to M1 0w40.

I'll probably skip doing an analysis for the next oil change and do it for the one after. So i'll have another analysis in 10-12k miles.

I don't really know what i'm looking at besides the lead number so any comments would be appreciated. Thanks

UPDATE: 4/22/15

I wasn't planning on doing an oil analysis for this oil change but what the hell.

The lead numbers dropped again which is good. Oil consumption went up quite a bit so i'm not sure what changed since the last oil change interval. Burned 3.5qts in 6k miles.

I indicated that 1qt of oil was burned for each of the last two oil change intervals but it was actually more than that. I didn't keep track as well previously but it was around 1-2qts burned for the each of the last two intervals.

UPDATE: 12/17/15

Readings seem pretty good and consistent so far. I looked through my records and recalculated the oil usage and it seems like i've been averaging around 1qt every 1800 miles or so for the last 18-20k miles

UPDATE: 7/16/16

Readings seem to be holding steady, lead reads 12PPM just like last time which is higher than I would like, single digits would be preferable. Doesn't seem to be a cause for concern though.

UPDATE 11/2/17

I skipped doing the oil analysis for one oil change but it looks like everything is so far so good still
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      04-11-2014, 01:01 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamspeed View Post
Just had my first oil analysis done and it doesn't look too good.

I had switched over to M1 0w40 with this oil change (which was my original plan anyways). Planning to have it checked again in around 5k miles and hopefully the lead content drops.

What do you guys think?
What month was your 2010 car built? We know they switched bearings sometime in 2010, and would like to get an idea when yours was built.
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      04-11-2014, 01:14 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
What month was your 2010 car built? We know they switched bearings sometime in 2010, and would like to get an idea when yours was built.
Mine is actually a 09 build

Sept. 2009
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      04-11-2014, 01:17 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamspeed View Post
Just had my first oil analysis done and it doesn't look too good.

I had switched over to M1 0w40 with this oil change (which was my original plan anyways). Planning to have it checked again in around 5k miles and hopefully the lead content drops.

What levels of lead should you have in order to be in the "safe zone?"

What do you guys think?
I personally like to see under 10. Now that you are running M1, I fully expect the lead to go down. Definitely keep an eye on it.
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      04-11-2014, 01:20 PM   #5
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I'd be wondering why the viscosity is so low - typical viscosity @ 100C is 17 - 18 cSt for Castrol Edge Pro 10W60. Are you sure that was the oil used?
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      04-11-2014, 01:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamspeed View Post
Just had my first oil analysis done and it doesn't look too good.

I had switched over to M1 0w40 with this oil change (which was my original plan anyways). Planning to have it checked again in around 5k miles and hopefully the lead content drops.

What levels of lead should you have in order to be in the "safe zone?"

What do you guys think?
I agree, get another test in 5000mi and compare to see if results change.

You can also compare with reports we've posted in our thread here:

▀▄ eas | S65 Rod Bearing Replacement: An ongoing "Journal"
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=880264
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      04-11-2014, 01:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I'd be wondering why the viscosity is so low - typical viscosity @ 100C is 17 - 18 cSt for Castrol Edge Pro 10W60. Are you sure that was the oil used?
Well I can't be 100% positive since the dealership has been providing the free oil changes up until the most recent one where I switched to M1.

I actually know the BMW tech that did my last 2 oil changes so I don't have any reason to doubt he used anything besides the 10w60.
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      04-11-2014, 01:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
I agree, get another test in 5000mi and compare to see if results change.

You can also compare with reports we've posted in our thread here:

▀▄ eas | S65 Rod Bearing Replacement: An ongoing "Journal"
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=880264
Thanks for the links Tom.

A few question for your guys

1. If your lead levels stay high but stable (20-25ppm) over say the next 25k miles what could that mean?

2. What is a lead/copper level that should sound the alarm to get the bearings replaced ASAP>

3. Looking at some of the threads it looks like you could have bearing wear and no abnormally high lead/copper in the oil reports?

Thanks
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      04-11-2014, 02:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamspeed View Post
Thanks for the links Tom.

A few question for your guys

1. If your lead levels stay high but stable (20-25ppm) over say the next 25k miles what could that mean?

2. What is a lead/copper level that should sound the alarm to get the bearings replaced ASAP>

3. Looking at some of the threads it looks like you could have bearing wear and no abnormally high lead/copper in the oil reports?

Thanks
This is why I like to recommend getting a series of tests instead of concentrating on the results of one. If a trend can be seen, then its likely not a false positive. The universal averages are a good starting point for comparison.

A Blackstone report is the closest to telling what going on inside without actually tearing apart the engine. You can compare your numbers with the reports/images we've posted in the thread so get a good indicator on what has been seen in the past and prepared if a bearing service needs to be performed.

Luckily if caught early, there is no catastrophic damage. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions, or simply drop on by when you're in the area.
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      04-11-2014, 02:53 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
This is why I like to recommend getting a series of tests instead of concentrating on the results of one. If a trend can be seen, then its likely not a false positive. The universal averages are a good starting point for comparison.

A Blackstone report is the closest to telling what going on inside without actually tearing apart the engine. You can compare your numbers with the reports/images we've posted in the thread so get a good indicator on what has been seen in the past and prepared if a bearing service needs to be performed.

Luckily if caught early, there is no catastrophic damage. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions, or simply drop on by when you're in the area.
Tom, i'm going to continue to get the tests done to see if the numbers improve.

My main question is whether this bearing wear in the M3 is steady/progressive and you pretty much know when you have a serious issue based on the oil report numbers.

I.E. if there IS an issue, will my next next results be 30, 40, 50 and then when it hits 60 I know i need to replace the bearings? (hypothetical numbers listed)

OR

Will it be like 20, 22, engine grenades.

Hopefully it's a non issue but if there is indeed a problem i'll be sure to give you guys a car to see whats what with getting the bearings replaced.

And I HAVE been down to your shop a few times

In other words,
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      04-11-2014, 03:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
What month was your 2010 car built? We know they switched bearings sometime in 2010, and would like to get an idea when yours was built.
Here's the entire oil service records in case you wanted it for your data.

I'm the second owner starting on 11/21/2012 - 18.2k miles

3/3/2010 - 1219 - 1200 mile break in service
6/24/2011 - 10116 - 10w60
4/23/2012 - 14836 - 10w60

4/8/2013 - 25081 - 10w60
9/9/2013 - 31049 - 10w60

4/5/2014 - 38109 - 0w40

Everything prior to the most recent oil change has been down by the dealership under the free maintenance.
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      04-11-2014, 03:05 PM   #12
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With BlackStone saying the viscosity appears too low for 10w60 and you were using free dealership oil changes, most likely it was 5w30 in there. I would hasten to say, with that level of lead content reported on a lower viscosity oil, better safe to have the bearings changed,...sooner if possible!
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      04-11-2014, 03:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///mawana View Post
With BlackStone saying the viscosity appears too low for 10w60 and you were using free dealership oil changes, most likely it was 5w30 in there. I would hasten to say, with that level of lead content reported on a lower viscosity oil, better safe to have the bearings changed,...sooner if possible!
Uh no. The viscosity listed on the report is still that of an oil higher than a 30 grade. Quit trying to fear monger.
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      04-11-2014, 03:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamspeed View Post
Tom, i'm going to continue to get the tests done to see if the numbers improve.

My main question is whether this bearing wear in the M3 is steady/progressive and you pretty much know when you have a serious issue based on the oil report numbers.

I.E. if there IS an issue, will my next next results be 30, 40, 50 and then when it hits 60 I know i need to replace the bearings? (hypothetical numbers listed)

OR

Will it be like 20, 22, engine grenades.

Hopefully it's a non issue but if there is indeed a problem i'll be sure to give you guys a car to see whats what with getting the bearings replaced.

And I HAVE been down to your shop a few times

In other words,
The engines that have grenaded, or have really really terrible looking bearings that were on verge of failing had much higher numbers than what you have. FYI, a local member here had 28 lead PPM, switched to M1 and it went down to 9PPM or something liek that, I don't remember.

But you need another result to see the trend, that's what you should be looking at. Now if the next result comes back and it's even higher, then I'd be very concerned.
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      04-11-2014, 03:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamspeed View Post
Tom, i'm going to continue to get the tests done to see if the numbers improve.

My main question is whether this bearing wear in the M3 is steady/progressive and you pretty much know when you have a serious issue based on the oil report numbers.

I.E. if there IS an issue, will my next next results be 30, 40, 50 and then when it hits 60 I know i need to replace the bearings? (hypothetical numbers listed)

OR

Will it be like 20, 22, engine grenades.

Hopefully it's a non issue but if there is indeed a problem i'll be sure to give you guys a car to see whats what with getting the bearings replaced.

And I HAVE been down to your shop a few times

In other words,
There's really no "threshold" that can be given - which is why averages are provided. This is why we're working in the thread to have as many bearing photos married with reports posted so show overall condition.

This example was taken from a rod bearing failure, journal #5 was gone as seen below:



Quote:
Info
Vehicle: 2008 BMW M3, 6MT
Production Date: 05/08
Oil Used: TWS Motorsport 10W-60, 7500mi intervals
Mileage: 53,XXX mi
Fuel: 91 Oct
Driving Habits: Mostly highway/street driving, no track use
Oil Analysis: None provided

Notes:
This particular M3 was fully serviced under scheduled maintenance and meticulously followed thereafter with oil changes every 7500mi.

Here's a recent inspection on a 2008 M3 with ~53K that came in. When engine was warm, a "knock" was heard at 3500+ RPM. Upon inspection of #5 journal, the bearings were discovered to be in terrible condition:







Crank also shows severe damage, engine will need to be pulled and crank/bearings replaced. With this much damage on the journal, there's really no need to inspect the others. Higher resolution photos can be found here on our Flickr page.





Engine is relatively stock other than aftermarket exhaust, vehicle has never been tracked. An oil sample has been sent simply to see what numbers are present in this type of situation.
If copper and lead levels start increasing with the next report, it may be time to take a look.
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      04-11-2014, 04:45 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
Uh no. The viscosity listed on the report is still that of an oil higher than a 30 grade. Quit trying to fear monger.
What? Did you read the Blackstone comment? Dealers stock 10w60 and 5w30 weights mostly and the 5w-30 is used more often, so if Blackstone conclude the weight is pretty low for a 10w60, what's the most likely oil that was in there?
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      04-11-2014, 04:50 PM   #17
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      04-11-2014, 07:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamspeed View Post
Tom, i'm going to continue to get the tests done to see if the numbers improve.

My main question is whether this bearing wear in the M3 is steady/progressive and you pretty much know when you have a serious issue based on the oil report numbers.

I.E. if there IS an issue, will my next next results be 30, 40, 50 and then when it hits 60 I know i need to replace the bearings? (hypothetical numbers listed)

OR

Will it be like 20, 22, engine grenades.

Hopefully it's a non issue but if there is indeed a problem i'll be sure to give you guys a car to see whats what with getting the bearings replaced.

And I HAVE been down to your shop a few times

In other words,
I don't think anyone can say which it will be with any certainty. I have 75K and three analyses under my belt now. Mine started out high and are coming down. What that means, I dunno. Mine could continue to decrease until "normal" and I would still say that "the damage has been done".
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      04-11-2014, 07:19 PM   #19
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subscribed for more news on the next report

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      04-11-2014, 08:44 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///mawana View Post
What? Did you read the Blackstone comment? Dealers stock 10w60 and 5w30 weights mostly and the 5w-30 is used more often, so if Blackstone conclude the weight is pretty low for a 10w60, what's the most likely oil that was in there?
Yes I did read the report which states the viscosity was 14.01. This is indeed low for a 60wt but still much higher than a 30wt (believe top end of a 30wt is around 12.5). Seems like the 10-60 sheared a little more than normal in this sample.

Do some research on what the numbers mean and you will understand more.
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      09-30-2014, 08:35 PM   #21
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Updated with new blackstone report in original post
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      10-01-2014, 11:18 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamspeed View Post
Updated with new blackstone report in original post
Report looks great with 0w40. Viscosity does seem low though. Most UOAs show viscosity in the 12.6-12.8 range.
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