BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
Bimmerworld
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-21-2010, 10:10 PM   #23
M3V8Driver
Captain
M3V8Driver's Avatar
United_States
26
Rep
725
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 - DCT
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
No lift picks a car up perfectly level, especially when it initially takes the load off the suspension. The factory jacking points are designed with this in mind. That's why they're located at one of the strongest parts of the car, the rockers. You're introducing a bending moment in the chassis whether you use a lift or a floor jack and a jackstand, either way the car is "made to withstand" that bending moment.

Like I said, you are free to imagine whatever boogeymen you want to, but try not to spread it around so BMW owners can feel free to work on and enjoy their cars without blowing money on useless things like a scissor lift that precludes access to the transmission. There's already enough fear and intimidation related to working on an expensive and complicated car without throwing things like "metal fatique" (that's spelled with a "g" by the way) from jacking the car up, in the same fashion that people have raised cars off the ground since the beginning of cars, in to muddy the waters.

The point of the scissors lift is mainly for convenience. Sure, I could waste time playing around with boards, multiple jacks, running around from corner-to-corner, etc. Or, I can just park my car over a lift and push a button when I want to work on it. Eliminating any tests of torsional rigidity is a side bonus. Also, I'm not about to swap trannies out on a car that's still under warranty. Finally, in the old days (probably before YOUR time), cars didn't need jacking points because they had frames. Jacking points came about mainly as a result of unibody construction. PS - Do you race Spec Miata? If so, who built your car?
__________________
Mmmm... M&Ms,
Dale
Appreciate 0
      09-21-2010, 10:23 PM   #24
rzm3
Moderator
rzm3's Avatar
300
Rep
4,655
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (16)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3V8Driver View Post
Are you serious? Do you really believe that our chasses are not prone to metal fatique? FYI, when you have one corner on a jack stand, and you then jack up the opposing corner, it puts a twisting force on the chasis, no matter how stiff the chassis is. I didn't say it actually twists the chassis, but do this enough times, and you'll start to experience new squeaks and rattles. This is true even with race cars, with all their cages and added bracing. That's part of the reason teams retire them after just a season or two, then sell them on the cheap. You won't find Turner or BimmerWorld running the same chassis for three seasons, even if they've never been wrecked.
You, my friend, need some mechanical engineering education.

If you somehow think your car's operating life is shortened by being jacked up, don't even bother driving your car.

And what are you trying to say about race cars? These race cars are subjected to a tremendous amount of static, dynamic, and impact loads that are way beyond what our cars are designed for. That's why they are replaced after a few seasons (and the sponsors pay for it). Can you pull a lateral 1.5G every corner?
__________________
2011 E92 M3 DCT
1991 Spec Miata
2008 E92 M3 DCT - KW Competition 2-way / Brembo 365 BBK / OMP ARS racing seats / rear seats delete / GT4 aero / AiM EVO4 data logger / SmartyCam racing camera
2008 E92 M3 6MT
2008 E92 335xi
Appreciate 0
      09-21-2010, 10:51 PM   #25
M3V8Driver
Captain
M3V8Driver's Avatar
United_States
26
Rep
725
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 - DCT
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rldzhao View Post
You, my friend, need some mechanical engineering education.

If you somehow think your car's operating life is shortened by being jacked up, don't even bother driving your car.

And what are you trying to say about race cars? These race cars are subjected to a tremendous amount of static, dynamic, and impact loads that are way beyond what our cars are designed for. That's why they are replaced after a few seasons (and the sponsors pay for it). Can you pull a lateral 1.5G every corner?
You guys need to lighten up. Geeze. All I'm saying is, if there's a chance to avoid causing any sort of harm, no matter how meager or how far in the future it may rear its ugly head, then why not do so? Putting a quart of inferior oil in your engine won't kill it, but may take a few miles off its longevity, so why do it? And if there's a chance to make working on cars that much easier, then why not do so?

This is the "track" section of this forum, so I suspect most here are more in-tune with their cars than those who spend the majority of their form time in the "cosmetic section (not that there's anything wrong with that). If you're like me, you take every opportunity to track your car you can get. Since I instruct with several organizations, opportunity knocks often After many years of tracking one car, you start to notice things that aren't right, and wouldn't be present if it werent for years of track use. Pulling 1.5g in every corner is entirly possible, especially with r-comp tires. Anyway...

I used to build and race cars, including a national championship winning car, so I know about what all they're subject to, and I know that details do matter. Not trying to start a "know-it-all" war, just trying to illustrate where I'm coming from.

Cheers,
__________________
Mmmm... M&Ms,
Dale
Appreciate 0
      09-21-2010, 11:01 PM   #26
rzm3
Moderator
rzm3's Avatar
300
Rep
4,655
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (16)

No worries it's all cool. Just don't worry too much
__________________
2011 E92 M3 DCT
1991 Spec Miata
2008 E92 M3 DCT - KW Competition 2-way / Brembo 365 BBK / OMP ARS racing seats / rear seats delete / GT4 aero / AiM EVO4 data logger / SmartyCam racing camera
2008 E92 M3 6MT
2008 E92 335xi
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 01:37 AM   #27
JAJ
Captain
36
Rep
961
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3V8Driver View Post
No room in a typical residential garage for a two or four post lift
That's why they invented scissors lifts...

Name:  Lift at home.jpg
Views: 711
Size:  521.9 KB

For those times when "size matters"
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 08:39 AM   #28
Richbot
Colonel
120
Rep
2,564
Posts

Drives: Jerez Black E90
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: STL

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3V8Driver View Post
Do you race Spec Miata? If so, who built your car?
I did for several years. I built my first car, my second car's rolling chassis (in the signature) was purchased from Bob Stretch at Wheels America (for pennies compared to what I spent on the first one!) and I put it together with the leftovers from the first car.

Now I have a Spec Racer Ford. It's nice not trying to be trying to make elephants dance anymore, so to speak. Even one of the best production racecar platforms was still pretty frustrating to deal with because of all the compromises.
__________________

Last edited by Richbot; 09-22-2010 at 08:45 AM.
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 08:45 AM   #29
LiM3y
Major
LiM3y's Avatar
United Kingdom
30
Rep
1,333
Posts

Drives: 2008 E90 M3
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CT

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
That's why they invented scissors lifts...

Attachment 433200

For those times when "size matters"
Dammit, I want one of those now! What brand and how much?
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 08:46 AM   #30
LiM3y
Major
LiM3y's Avatar
United Kingdom
30
Rep
1,333
Posts

Drives: 2008 E90 M3
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CT

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
I did for several years. I built my first car, my second car's rolling chassis (in the signature) was purchased from Bob Stretch at Wheels America and I put it together.

Now I have a Spec Racer Ford. It's nice not trying to be trying to make elephants dance anymore, so to speak. Even one of the best production racecar platforms was still pretty frustrating to deal with because of all the compromises.
Which is more fun, spec ford or spec miata racing? I have flagged for both, and considered both for an entry into racing.
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 11:16 AM   #31
Richbot
Colonel
120
Rep
2,564
Posts

Drives: Jerez Black E90
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: STL

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiM3y View Post
Which is more fun, spec ford or spec miata racing? I have flagged for both, and considered both for an entry into racing.
I wouldn't call one more fun than the other as far as the racing goes, they're both very popular classes with a ton of great people in them, so you'll always have great people to race against and lots of help if you're new.

I prefer the SRF for a few reasons.

1) It's faster, and I wanna go fast.
2) It's a real racecar, which means it rewards precision and penalizes mistakes more than the Spec Miata which often requires "unnatural acts" to get it to respond, especially mid-corner, and the suspension has real dampers on it instead of a factory non-adjustable Bilstein with factory valving :bleh:
3) It's Spec, for real. Spec Miata is a class populated with two different chassis, 5 different engines, and all of the complicated parity issues that go along with it. The cars are closer than ever but you're never going to get them 100% equal at every track, though they are VERY close. I bought a pretty good used SRF with a good history and ran at the Sprints this year against some of the best in the country, and the car was every bit as good and capable of winning as those cars, even with my clueless driving at my 2nd event in the car. It took me years to get to that point in the SM, and all I had to do in the SRF was go out and buy one with a good pedigree. Track record holder at Road America and I were neck and neck down the whole front straight during our battle for 7th out of 45 cars. If the TR holder and me have basically equal acceleration at one of the biggest drag strips in American road courses, well, that's Spec enough for me.
4) The CSR program. Need a part? Odds are good if you're at a National event, the CSR can help you. Can't troubleshoot a problem? The CSR can help too. Want to race at a track that's far away but don't want to drag your car there? Call the track's local CSR and he can probably hook you up with a rental in a competitive car. Spec Miata has a more "shadetree" feel to it which can be good and bad.

I still maintain that Spec Miata is the best way to get into club racing in America today. My car was cheaper to build than a new SRF by a factor of four, and a good used SM is cheaper than a pedigreed SRF by about half. That's big money when you're just getting started and aren't sure if you want to make a huge investment, and you still get every bit as intense competition in SM.

__________________

Last edited by Richbot; 09-22-2010 at 11:23 AM.
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 11:21 AM   #32
M3V8Driver
Captain
M3V8Driver's Avatar
United_States
26
Rep
725
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 - DCT
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
That's why they invented scissors lifts...

Attachment 433200

For those times when "size matters"
I guess you did't see the link I included in a prior post to the scissors lift I am buying. Which one do you have, and where did you get it? How much dis it cost and does it run on 120V? The one I linked to requires 220V, so I'd need to run a new circuit (which I can do, but would rather not if they make one to run on 120V). Maybe it's time to move this thread (or at least this part of it) to the other section for working on cars
__________________
Mmmm... M&Ms,
Dale

Last edited by M3V8Driver; 09-22-2010 at 12:47 PM.
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 11:54 AM   #33
JC919
Lieutenant Colonel
JC919's Avatar
United_States
42
Rep
1,804
Posts

Drives: CSL
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
That's why they invented scissors lifts...

Attachment 433200

For those times when "size matters"
That's exactly what I need! Could you post up a brand name or link please?
__________________

2007 GT3 Clubsport w/CGT buckets in Scotland
2003 CSL, SG, Alcon BBK SOLD
2002 M5, SSII/Blk and bone stock. In storage back home in TX
2008 M3, AW/Blk 6MT, lots of track stuff SOLD
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 01:29 PM   #34
008
Sexual Philanthropist
008's Avatar
4
Rep
324
Posts

Drives: 2011 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Houston

iTrader: (0)

Would also like to know the specs on the scissor lift. I had a floor mounted one I left in place at my old digs.
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 03:56 PM   #35
JAJ
Captain
36
Rep
961
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 008 View Post
Would also like to know the specs on the scissor lift. I had a floor mounted one I left in place at my old digs.
You guys aren't going to believe this one. Last time I posted a link a bunch of guys crapped on it, comparing it to a veg-a-matic, so I shut up.

It's a very capable piece of gear and saves a ton of time when you have to do a little prep work for a track day. Yesterday after work I headed out to the garage at around 6 PM and changed all four tires, the front brake pads and reset the front camber. I was back in the kitchen checking on dinner at 7:05.

You run it up and down with a hefty sized electric drill (they don't recommend a battery unit, but I've done it). The design is brilliant and it weighs about 120 pounds. It rolls around on casters. I store mine off to the side or under the car if I'm not going to be drving it for a while.

http://www.ezcarlift.com/
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 04:09 PM   #36
008
Sexual Philanthropist
008's Avatar
4
Rep
324
Posts

Drives: 2011 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Houston

iTrader: (0)

Thanks for the info JAJ, don't worry about comments on this site. Most care more about the fitment of their body kit than tools and performance it seems. Been following your AP thread and just requested a quote for when the car gets here in Nov.
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 04:18 PM   #37
JAJ
Captain
36
Rep
961
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 008 View Post
Thanks for the info JAJ, don't worry about comments on this site. Most care more about the fitment of their body kit than tools and performance it seems. Been following your AP thread and just requested a quote for when the car gets here in Nov.
You're welcome. The comments don't bother me at all, but I was concerned that slag would possibly stick to the company that makes the unit. The website is a bit hoaky, but the product is first-rate and Boytcho, the guy that runs it all, is great to deal with.
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 07:11 PM   #38
rzm3
Moderator
rzm3's Avatar
300
Rep
4,655
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (16)

This is also an option for DIYers. Entire system can be unbolted in 15 minutes and be stored in a closet.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/more-v...e-lift-system/

__________________
2011 E92 M3 DCT
1991 Spec Miata
2008 E92 M3 DCT - KW Competition 2-way / Brembo 365 BBK / OMP ARS racing seats / rear seats delete / GT4 aero / AiM EVO4 data logger / SmartyCam racing camera
2008 E92 M3 6MT
2008 E92 335xi
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 07:51 PM   #39
M3V8Driver
Captain
M3V8Driver's Avatar
United_States
26
Rep
725
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 - DCT
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

iTrader: (0)

Interesting options, but they're both twice the price of the one at Harbor Freight.
__________________
Mmmm... M&Ms,
Dale
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 08:10 PM   #40
JAJ
Captain
36
Rep
961
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3V8Driver View Post
Interesting options, but they're both twice the price of the one at Harbor Freight.
I got mine in a group buy last year for about $1200 or so. How much is the HF one?
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2010, 11:10 PM   #41
M3V8Driver
Captain
M3V8Driver's Avatar
United_States
26
Rep
725
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 - DCT
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
I got mine in a group buy last year for about $1200 or so. How much is the HF one?
See link. It is 1000, plus they issue 20% off coupons, making it 800.
__________________
Mmmm... M&Ms,
Dale
Appreciate 0
      09-24-2010, 01:28 PM   #42
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
138
Rep
8,034
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
You guys aren't going to believe this one. Last time I posted a link a bunch of guys crapped on it, comparing it to a veg-a-matic, so I shut up.

It's a very capable piece of gear and saves a ton of time when you have to do a little prep work for a track day. Yesterday after work I headed out to the garage at around 6 PM and changed all four tires, the front brake pads and reset the front camber. I was back in the kitchen checking on dinner at 7:05.

You run it up and down with a hefty sized electric drill (they don't recommend a battery unit, but I've done it). The design is brilliant and it weighs about 120 pounds. It rolls around on casters. I store mine off to the side or under the car if I'm not going to be drving it for a while.

http://www.ezcarlift.com/
I considered that GB, but didn't go for it. Should have done it!

At $2k, I think they are asking too much. Maybe we can talk them down if we get enough people together.

Also, any issues with rolling over it (collapsed unit spec is 4")? Or do you just roll it under the car from the side? If so, what is its height on rollers? I'm asking because there won't be enough space in my garage for rolling it under the car from the side.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-24-2010, 03:01 PM   #43
garek
Second Lieutenant
garek's Avatar
United_States
6
Rep
287
Posts

Drives: 09 E90 M3 DCT
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Arizona

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I considered that GB, but didn't go for it. Should have done it!

At $2k, I think they are asking too much. Maybe we can talk them down if we get enough people together.
Count me in if we can get another GB together.
__________________
///M3 E90 '09 Le Mans Blue | DCT | Silver Novillo | Tech | Prem | 19"s | Prem Sound | iPod
StopTech BBK | Volk VR.G2 | H&R Sport Springs
Appreciate 0
      09-24-2010, 03:29 PM   #44
KM3
Formerly K335i
KM3's Avatar
6
Rep
215
Posts

Drives: 2009 E92 M3
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Redmond, WA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by garek View Post
Count me in if we can get another GB together.
+1
__________________

2009 E92 M3 :: Jet Black :: Fox Red Extended :: Carbon Leather :: 6MT :: JRZ RS Suspension :: RD Sport Sways :: StopTech Trophy Brakes :: Cantrell Brake Cooling
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:47 AM.




m3post
m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST