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      09-20-2010, 11:05 AM   #133
scollins
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Originally Posted by Feyd View Post
Gotta give this one an hearty LOL.

Serves this dude and his followers right.

http://www.sodahead.com/united-state...stion-1230133/

That's bullshit actually. It is putting a price on free speech. He didn't ask for that security, so why should he be held accountable for the costs? And how did they come up with $180,000? Did they buy a new helicopter or something?

Would you be OK with such a policy for all groups, gatherings or protests? I'm not, even for those I don't agree with.
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      09-20-2010, 03:55 PM   #134
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There was a burning in NYC which was aired in the Middle east... Its just that the U.S. media didnt show the protests from it.
Burning of what ? The Koran or the Bible? Any links to this event ? Surely if it happened, there must be plenty of websites devoted to it.

If it did in fact happen, I have to say I am a bit surprised it was not covered by US media. After all, large mainstream media outlets are for-profit entities, whose goal is to scoop their competitor, and garner higher ratings to drive up advertising rates to increase revenues. Sure, ostensibly they are there to inform the public as well, as long as that does not conflict with revenues

If there was a public burning of any sort of religious book in NYC, I would think that CNN, Fox News, NBC, etc. would be all over that to get the first footage on air. That kind of thing is sure to bring in lots of viewers. I can't imagine an editor or manager saying "naah, I dont want to run with that story at all..."

Not saying it didn't happen, I'm just very, very surprised it didnt get more coverage if it did....
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      09-20-2010, 09:34 PM   #135
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That's bullshit actually. It is putting a price on free speech. He didn't ask for that security, so why should he be held accountable for the costs? And how did they come up with $180,000? Did they buy a new helicopter or something?

Would you be OK with such a policy for all groups, gatherings or protests? I'm not, even for those I don't agree with.
Ditto. They can send him a bill all they want. He won't pay it and i doubt he'll ever have to. Unless he requested all the security, it's not his responsibility.
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      09-20-2010, 10:14 PM   #136
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Ditto. They can send him a bill all they want. He won't pay it and i doubt he'll ever have to. Unless he requested all the security, it's not his responsibility.

Until someone got killed/hurt/maimed/injured... then everyone would be lining up to sue... And since him and his 50 followers couldn't afford the suit, the plaintiff would then turn around and sue the city for negligence.

I don't think the city's defense of: "We were letting them practice their free speech, sorry you got hurt" will be an acceptable answer in the court room.




As far as the costs go it is reported that during that weekend they had a combined force of 268 officers guarding the church as well as other "soft targets" in the area like shopping malls/schools/other venues that could be considered targets by people who were against the burning.


So breaking down the $180,000 bill probably goes something like this:

$180,000/268 employees = ~$672.00/ea. Logically broken down into (2) 12 hour shifts per employee = $28/hr per hour to work OT/weekend time with the chance (no matter how remote) that they could be part of some kind of riot. That's best case scenario.. Who knows, maybe they worked 4 rotating 8hr shifts where their take-home would be ~$22.00/hr. All of these figures are before taxes mind you.


So in short, no thanks on that for me... Perhaps you should head down there and show them how to take care of things for less?


The city and the police department have a duty to keep everyone safe... if this dude wants to incite anger/protests on this magnitude, then he needs to take responsibility.
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      09-20-2010, 11:01 PM   #137
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Until someone got killed/hurt/maimed/injured... then everyone would be lining up to sue... And since him and his 50 followers couldn't afford the suit, the plaintiff would then turn around and sue the city for negligence.

I don't think the city's defense of: "We were letting them practice their free speech, sorry you got hurt" will be an acceptable answer in the court room.




As far as the costs go it is reported that during that weekend they had a combined force of 268 officers guarding the church as well as other "soft targets" in the area like shopping malls/schools/other venues that could be considered targets by people who were against the burning.


So breaking down the $180,000 bill probably goes something like this:

$180,000/268 employees = ~$672.00/ea. Logically broken down into (2) 12 hour shifts per employee = $28/hr per hour to work OT/weekend time with the chance (no matter how remote) that they could be part of some kind of riot. That's best case scenario.. Who knows, maybe they worked 4 rotating 8hr shifts where their take-home would be ~$22.00/hr. All of these figures are before taxes mind you.


So in short, no thanks on that for me... Perhaps you should head down there and show them how to take care of things for less?


The city and the police department have a duty to keep everyone safe... if this dude wants to incite anger/protests on this magnitude, then he needs to take responsibility.

Regardless, it is putting a price on free speech, and one that is designed to intimidate other protests in the future, regardless of the group wanting to protest. Well, I should say, intimidating those that hold a minority belief. If this is allowed to go through and becomes an "acceptable practice", then local governments everywhere will start sticking "unwanted protest groups" with large security bills. The only outcome of that is curtailing free speech. Hell, we might as well bring back the poll tax!

It will play out like this:
Mayor of Seattle is pissed that a group plans to hold a pro-Iraq war march in Seattle. He decides that the pro-War rally is going to cause too much hassle, so he says the police will have to ramp up security and the group protesting will have to pay the estimated $200,000 in incremental costs. Doesn't matter if there is a real, perceived or imagined threat to peace. The group doesn't have that kind of money, so they decide to skip it. Winner = Mayor of Seattle. Loser = free speech.

The following week, a group is planning a march to protest Amgen because they feel that Amgen is gouging senior citizens for their drugs. The Mayor of Seattle likes this particular group, but still decides to ramp up security, "just in case." But since the Mayor likes this group and knows they don't have any money, they aren't handed a bill for the extra security precautions. Winner = Mayor of Seattle and the protesters.

In all, I say it is TOUGH SHIT for the city. It is their responsibility to provide safe streets, regardless of protests, marches, etc. It is far too easy to stick a group that you don't like with the bill, and since we are dealing with political animals, it will most certainly be used in that fashion.

Feyd, you just like this particular tactic in this particular case because you don't agree with what the pastor/church were planning on doing. But imagine something you strongly believe in, and then having that group get charged with an exorbitant security bill, that you never requested. How would you feel then?

Maybe Martin Luther King Jr and his March on Washington should have paid a huge security bill? "I have a dream" would have been followed with "I have a HUGE ASS BILL TO PAY"??? I doubt you'd agree with that, but many in America at the time would have been "Hell yeah, make those uppity ***** pay! Serves them right."

How about the planned October 2nd march on Washington by the Workers Emergency Recovery Campaign? They most certainly should have to pay for all the extra security that will be needed. Especially if what their website indicates is true (40 plus anti-war groups also planning on attending.) Glenn Beck's rally? Oh yeah, he should have to pay, big time! Colbert and Stewart? Nope, they get a pass....

I doubt the NYC mosque is being asked to pay for additional security. Although after this little stunt, I'm sure this is going to be a common occurrence from now one, especially for "unsavory groups".....

And freedom dies a little bit more......
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      09-21-2010, 12:41 AM   #138
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It's all a matter of scale... some places have planned for things like this and can more easily absorb the cost than others.

NY/DC/Seattle > Gainesville, FL.

I'm sure public rioting isn't high up on Gainesville's list of calculated expenses for 2010.


The city did protect it's citizens the best way it knew how as you are suggesting... Unfortunately it just can't afford to do that the way other places might be able to. If it's like most other smaller cities around this country, their budget was in the crapper already.

No, I don't care what the church is/was doing. I care about how a small group of people knowingly and willfully put other people's lives in danger and is now throwing their hands up in the air like they had nothing to do with it... That has been my argument from the start.

And stop with the freedom is dying comments... No one told this group of people to "Shut up and go home, or else." They were allowed to express their right to free speech and did so without interruption as far as I can tell.



Unfortunately enforcing freedom such as in this case wasn't free but rather had a real monetary price-tag put on it. These people won't pay the fine because they just won't, or can't.. so the burden will then fall on the citizens to pick up the slack, which is pretty sweet...
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      09-21-2010, 06:00 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feyd View Post
As far as the costs go it is reported that during that weekend they had a combined force of 268 officers guarding the church as well as other "soft targets" in the area like shopping malls/schools/other venues that could be considered targets by people who were against the burning.
268 officers to guard a church? Why did schools and malls need added security? Why would people who are against a peaceful demonstration have targets? Why is the church being served the bill if they needed the security for what could be targets of those who were against the burning?

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It's all a matter of scale... some places have planned for things like this and can more easily absorb the cost than others.

NY/DC/Seattle > Gainesville, FL.

I'm sure public rioting isn't high up on Gainesville's list of calculated expenses for 2010.


The city did protect it's citizens the best way it knew how as you are suggesting... Unfortunately it just can't afford to do that the way other places might be able to. If it's like most other smaller cities around this country, their budget was in the crapper already.

No, I don't care what the church is/was doing. I care about how a small group of people knowingly and willfully put other people's lives in danger and is now throwing their hands up in the air like they had nothing to do with it... That has been my argument from the start.

And stop with the freedom is dying comments... No one told this group of people to "Shut up and go home, or else." They were allowed to express their right to free speech and did so without interruption as far as I can tell.



Unfortunately enforcing freedom such as in this case wasn't free but rather had a real monetary price-tag put on it. These people won't pay the fine because they just won't, or can't.. so the burden will then fall on the citizens to pick up the slack, which is pretty sweet...
Dude, this guy was told to STFU and go home by soooo many people it's not even funny. The damn general of the most powerful army in the world personally called him more than once to tell him that. he had meetings in NY & DC, what do you think they told him to do when he was there? This bogus bill is just the nail in the coffin of this incident. Obviously intended to discourage anyone else from protesting against or for anything. It's like, hey we got our way, now lets make sure this doesn't happen again.

This country is already run by the vocal minority, and this tactic will stand to ensure the silent majority stays silent.

Besides, this guy was going to do something that was well within his rights to do as a US citizen. If you wanted to join him so be it. The security was because of all the people who were gong to PROTEST HIM for exercising his free speech. So why doesn't the city divvy up the bill between the organizations who planned on protesting.

Lastly, don't try and tell me that the vast majority of the police force wasn't already mobilized because of the UF vs USF game that weekend. The whole thing is crap.
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      09-21-2010, 06:58 PM   #140
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268 officers to guard a church? Why did schools and malls need added security? Why would people who are against a peaceful demonstration have targets? Why is the church being served the bill if they needed the security for what could be targets of those who were against the burning?
Just because some of the demonstrators were peaceful, doesn't guarantee that they all would be peaceful. I'm certain that the city officials were taking precautions based on other protests this incident had sparked around the world as noted here in this article.

The church is being served the bill because logically they are the body that instigated the need for the extra security.


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Dude, this guy was told to STFU and go home by soooo many people it's not even funny. The damn general of the most powerful army in the world personally called him more than once to tell him that. he had meetings in NY & DC, what do you think they told him to do when he was there? This bogus bill is just the nail in the coffin of this incident. Obviously intended to discourage anyone else from protesting against or for anything. It's like, hey we got our way, now lets make sure this doesn't happen again.
I'm confused at your argument here...? Yes people asked them to be quiet, but nowhere is there evidence that they were told to be quiet. This is most obvious in the fact that the group continued speaking out about their beliefs through various media outlets even AFTER General Petraeus made is opinions known.

I'm also genuinely confused where you get off saying that the bill is bogus? What world do you live in where things like law enforcement are free?


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This country is already run by the vocal minority, and this tactic will stand to ensure the silent majority stays silent.
*yawn* If your arguments are a testament to how the silent majority will try to form a defense... they'd be best served by remaining silent. Your logic is so full of flaws it's breath taking.


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Besides, this guy was going to do something that was well within his rights to do as a US citizen. If you wanted to join him so be it. The security was because of all the people who were gong to PROTEST HIM for exercising his free speech. So why doesn't the city divvy up the bill between the organizations who planned on protesting.
If I wanted to join him?
As for the rest of it see the second part of my first comment above.

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Lastly, don't try and tell me that the vast majority of the police force wasn't already mobilized because of the UF vs USF game that weekend. The whole thing is crap.
Okay, if that is really going to be some sort of an argument for your case lets go back to logic again and see what it has to say:

Last time I checked, people couldn't be in two places at once... Perhaps that is the reason that they needed to call extra people in.
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      09-21-2010, 07:51 PM   #141
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I can't believe this all went on in my city :O Lots of news/swat/military was here. GEEZ
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      09-21-2010, 09:10 PM   #142
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I can't say that I'm surprised by your comments seeing where you live and the type of government you're likely used to.
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Just because some of the demonstrators were peaceful, doesn't guarantee that they all would be peaceful. I'm certain that the city officials were taking precautions based on other protests this incident had sparked around the world as noted here in this article.

The church is being served the bill because logically they are the body that instigated the need for the extra security.
First there was no incident. The peaceful demonstration never took place. Again, i'm not surprised that you're ok with the city officials spending money on someone's behalf with out asking, then sticking them with bill.

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Originally Posted by Feyd View Post
I'm confused at your argument here...? Yes people asked them to be quiet, but nowhere is there evidence that they were told to be quiet. This is most obvious in the fact that the group continued speaking out about their beliefs through various media outlets even AFTER General Petraeus made is opinions known.

I'm also genuinely confused where you get off saying that the bill is bogus? What world do you live in where things like law enforcement are free?
I'm confused by your response as well. You said no one told him to shut up and go home. I said several people did, multiple times. Apparently enough people told him enough times for him to listen to them since he decided to cancel his event. I mean, he essentially shut up.... and went home. Almost as if people told him to.

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*yawn* If your arguments are a testament to how the silent majority will try to form a defense... they'd be best served by remaining silent. Your logic is so full of flaws it's breath taking.
Look, i say i'm going to burn Chicago Bears jerseys on my property here in FL. You get pissed and say you're going to protest me. Your buddy says he's going to kill me if i do it. Tampa PD hires an exorbitant amount of security in case you jack asses actually cause trouble. Tampa PD saddles me with a bill for the unnecessary security, and BTW i never burned the jerseys anyway. Where is the logic in that. I'm responsible for the actions and threats of a couple of idiots who don't understand that i'm within my rights to burn some jerseys?

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If I wanted to join him?
As for the rest of it see the second part of my first comment above.
You in general.... Not you personally.

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Originally Posted by Feyd View Post
Okay, if that is really going to be some sort of an argument for your case lets go back to logic again and see what it has to say:
Last time I checked, people couldn't be in two places at once... Perhaps that is the reason that they needed to call extra people in.
So should the game not have been going on that weekend, the security expense would have been less? Even though the "school" otherwise know as University of Florida was the "soft target" with the most security assigned to it? After all, the students of UF were the most likely group to actually show up at his property to protest.

What's most troubling to me is that you fail to see that this will discourage protests or demonstrations of all types.
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      09-21-2010, 09:18 PM   #143
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I can't believe this all went on in my city :O Lots of news/swat/military was here. GEEZ
Odd, I didn't know they mobilized SWAT for college football games.
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      09-21-2010, 09:30 PM   #144
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I can't say that I'm surprised by your comments seeing where you live and the type of government you're likely used to.
Wow. Super mature answer....

There is obviously not even enough substance left here for debate. So I'll bid you, and this thread adieu.




BTW, when are you burning the Bears jerseys? I'll come over and help. I can't fucking stand football.
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      09-22-2010, 12:54 AM   #145
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Burning of what ? The Koran or the Bible? Any links to this event ? Surely if it happened, there must be plenty of websites devoted to it.

If it did in fact happen, I have to say I am a bit surprised it was not covered by US media. After all, large mainstream media outlets are for-profit entities, whose goal is to scoop their competitor, and garner higher ratings to drive up advertising rates to increase revenues. Sure, ostensibly they are there to inform the public as well, as long as that does not conflict with revenues

If there was a public burning of any sort of religious book in NYC, I would think that CNN, Fox News, NBC, etc. would be all over that to get the first footage on air. That kind of thing is sure to bring in lots of viewers. I can't imagine an editor or manager saying "naah, I dont want to run with that story at all..."

Not saying it didn't happen, I'm just very, very surprised it didnt get more coverage if it did....

Ya I'm surprised it didnt hit the national news stations but it did happen and was aired around the world... If you search you'll find the actual video... He felt pretty stupid after doing it, because everyone was asking why he did it and what he got out of it. Needless to say the dude lost his career....


http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/...j_transit.html


Edit: added video

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      09-22-2010, 11:37 AM   #146
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Odd, I didn't know they mobilized SWAT for college football games.
You clearly havn't been to many Gator games. J/K

As an aside I drove by the church on Friday 9/10 as my Mom's house is about 2 miles from it and I was in town for the game. There was one protestor(old lady on a bike), two officers (may have been more elsewhere, but only two I could see out front) and about 20 huge news vans with satelites.
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      09-23-2010, 01:16 PM   #147
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Why didn't they send the bill to the Ayatollahs, and everyone else who issued threats? They're the reason security was required.
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      10-01-2010, 12:22 AM   #148
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Cant we all just get along? lol
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      10-11-2010, 01:06 AM   #149
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I watched 9/11 go down 15 minutes away from my crappy town in new jersey and i watched my wonderful american people get burned by muslims.....almost 95 percent of horrific terrorists attacks are commited by muslim descent so as far as im concerned i want to hold a f*****G bon fire in the backyard and the quran used as the wood....

OOO and after that attack i i joined the marine corps......and i'm the 18th one to serve in my family all wars all volunteer's not one draft....

Semper-fi. Iraq and afghanistan veteran....my job was infantry, rifleman. What i saw people do over there to their own is the most digusting images that are forever in my head.....

Let's worry about the right people....why don't the american's here take better care of our wounded troops when they come back home....not worry about who's burning the quran....because the muslim's can give two flying.....about us !!!! my friends I KNOWWWWWWW

Semper-fi

ooo and freedom isn't free liberal's.
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      10-15-2010, 05:06 PM   #150
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TEUFELHUNDE you think only christians died on 911 ?? There were muslims, Jews & others in those buildings as well. It was a terrorist attack by some crazy idiots with retard beliefs. Plus the Quran also believes in Jesus + Moses as Prophets. Arent there terrorists in Spain ? Are they known as Christian terrorists ? Plus what about IRA in Ireland that killed so many.

FYI terrorists have no f***g religion....Period... Get this into your head.
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      10-15-2010, 05:40 PM   #151
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I think the 9-11 terrorists would disagree with you. They were religiously motivated.
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      10-15-2010, 07:59 PM   #152
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I think the 9-11 terrorists would disagree with you. They were religiously motivated.
i think its mostly political...
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      10-15-2010, 08:12 PM   #153
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i know its mostly political...
fixed.

don't lie shah.

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      10-16-2010, 12:03 AM   #154
ghosthi32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmthree View Post
fixed.

don't lie shah.

jk
you are iranian too...lol you cant hide that.
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