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      09-08-2010, 06:27 PM   #23
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This Pastor from Florida is an IDIOT

What an ignorant TOOL this Pastor is.

Burning of the Koran will accomplish nothing but excite the Islamic extremists even more. He is playing right into their hands. That is exactly the kind of reaction they want from the U.S.A. and/or Christians.

What a worthless, ignorant, good for nothing POS this guy is !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sad to say, but he is not only putting the US Soldiers lives at additional risk, by exciting the extremists/terrorists, but he is also putting his OWN LIFE at risk.
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      09-08-2010, 07:04 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
HKS, don't buy into this. There are more of us who understand this is wrong, just as you understand it's wrong for extremist to burn the US flag.
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      09-08-2010, 07:51 PM   #25
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The topic is not muslims as a whole or muslim extremists. It's about an American christian's right of free speech and how much of a jack ass someone can be while doing it in God's name.

For me though, it's the fear that is generated by the almost certain world wide retaliation from muslim groups. I just have a hard time with so many saying that islam is peaceful yet fear the repercussions of one man burning the Quran while in the US. I mean some groups have already threatened violence towards an American embassy.
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      09-08-2010, 11:05 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by carve View Post
You're setting up a false dichotomy. They were carried out by terrorists who were Muslims. They carried out their attack for religous reasons, that are rationalizable in the Koran, whether you agree with their interpertation or not. Plenty of others DO agree with their interpertation. I remember a couple of years ago, a survey in Pakistan found Bin Laden to have a ~50% approval rating.

Most Muslims are peaceful and just want a good life like everyone else, but Islam has a disproportionately huge number of fundamentalists, and, consequently, extremists and terrorists. It's also hyper-sensitive to criticism, and a lot of people have been killed or threatened for criticising, or merely not obeying Islam. Not exactly an environment the discourages terrorism now, is it?
If we want to be very analytical about this then I would say your whole logic is flawed for the following reasons:

1.
A religion is NOT an animate object that acts for itself, rather it is teachings established through ancient texts (1400 years old). Therefore we cannot describe a religion as "an environment" or say it is "hyper-sensitive" since a religion cannot feel criticism.

However, I understand why people like to make a religion seem like this so that it makes it easier to criticise it every time someone MISINTERPRETS it and carries out acts of violence.

2.
Also your logic fails because you say plenty of people misinterpet the Quran and use it to carry out terrorist acts. I know that you are trying to say that Quran is open to interpretation but it is NOT. What is the point of having a religion if you can just choose how to interpret it? Rather the religion has only one interpretation and that is the true meaning of it but due to the sickness of some people they manipulate the meaning into something that suits what they want to do.

This is no new thing. For example, people are always manipulating law and using it to their advantage. That does not mean that law is open to interpretation. The whole purpose of law is to give a CLEAR unambiguous ruling so that there is no confusion over what is right/wrong. This logic applies to the purpose of religions.

3.
You have made the point that Islam has a disproportionate number of people that support terrorism. I am very unclear about where you get this from. There are over 1 billion muslims in the world today, I think back in 2009 it was something like 1.5 billion which is a huge number. You have used one questionable study which says Pakistan has around 50% approval rating of Al-Queda.

I dont understand what that proves. I know for a fact that MOST muslims do not agree with killing innocent people even if the media does not show this. That has nothing to do with being muslim. It is part of basic human instinct that tells us killing, stealing etc are WRONG irrespective of what religion/way of life you follow.

Anyway, lets not forget history. There have been plenty of wars because of other religions and even just over land in general. That is how many countries have been formed and it's just the way things are. People will always like to spread their rule across the world. Western governments like UK and US will never accept that Muslims might just have a DIFFERENT way of life and want to impose their way of life on the east.

I watched an interview of Tony Blair the other day where he made fun of Shariah law. You may call it barbaric if you want but many countries in the world use capital punishment. Who the fuck gives Bush, Blair or anyone the right to call someone else barbaric? At the end of the day there is noone who can tell us what is right/wrong because everyone has a different interpretation of these things.
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      09-08-2010, 11:09 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
HKS, don't buy into this. There are more of us who understand this is wrong, just as you understand it's wrong for extremist to burn the US flag.
+1. These actions of burning flags are pointless and misdirected anger that spreads hate.

As much hate as I have for Bush/Blair and anyone who supports their ideology, I think burning an American (or any flag) is not fair on the people of that country. The fact is that governments will take action without putting it to the vote of the public so just because a government does something it doesnt mean it is a reflection of the people of that country.
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      09-08-2010, 11:14 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
The topic is not muslims as a whole or muslim extremists. It's about an American christian's right of free speech and how much of a jack ass someone can be while doing it in God's name.

For me though, it's the fear that is generated by the almost certain world wide retaliation from muslim groups. I just have a hard time with so many saying that islam is peaceful yet fear the repercussions of one man burning the Quran while in the US. I mean some groups have already threatened violence towards an American embassy.
Why cant people understand that Islam is a religion founded 1400 years ago? Just because a certain population of "so called muslims" cant follow it properly why do people doubt the message of peace in Islam? I actually cannot explain or emphasize enough the message of peace in Islam. Islam teaches about respecting your parents, children, teachers, neighbours, etc. and etiquette in regards to so many things like eating, sleeping, hygiene etc.

Yet people hear about threats from some terrorist group and start doubting how peaceful the religion really is. Without exaggeration I think it would take a couple of years to fully study Islam and its many texts to understand just how deep a religion it is and how peaceful it is.
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      09-09-2010, 08:09 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post

I watched an interview of Tony Blair the other day where he made fun of Shariah law. You may call it barbaric if you want but many countries in the world use capital punishment. Who the fuck gives Bush, Blair or anyone the right to call someone else barbaric? At the end of the day there is noone who can tell us what is right/wrong because everyone has a different interpretation of these things.
And he says too, in his new book, that Aznar confess to him that only 4% of the spaniard people supported the Irak war. So the "he's spaniard what do you expect" is wrong. Like i said, muslims in his countrys, our in ours. That religion and people, most of them, are medieval and extremist in his points of view, even if they dont carry bombs, his thoughts are the most dangerous WMD
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      09-09-2010, 08:19 AM   #30
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I think it's fucking stupid on so many levels.

First, it's just disrespectful.

Secondly, it puts the lives of troops (not just Americans) in further danger in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. It also increases the risk of terror attacks in countries like Iraq, Yemen, the Sudan, etc.

So those Florida church nuts are retards.

HOWEVER - the people who are flying off the handle and throwing angry protests over this are being stupid for letting some douchebag pastor in Florida get under their skin and control them. He's basically trolling the world and the world is falling for it.
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      09-09-2010, 10:29 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
If we want to be very analytical about this then I would say your whole logic is flawed for the following reasons:

1.
A religion is NOT an animate object that acts for itself, rather it is teachings established through ancient texts (1400 years old). Therefore we cannot describe a religion as "an environment" or say it is "hyper-sensitive" since a religion cannot feel criticism.

However, I understand why people like to make a religion seem like this so that it makes it easier to criticise it every time someone MISINTERPRETS it and carries out acts of violence.
They think everyone else is misinterperting it. Like any religious text, it's full of contridictions, so it can be and IS used to justify opposed activities. Since people think it came from the creator of the universe, they follow obediently.

By hyper-sensitive, I'm referring to things like burning down embassies and killing people because somebody drew a picture of Mohommad. You just don't see that kind of reaction from other groups. That right there is a perfect illustration of my point that there are a lot more violent extremists in Islam.

Quote:
2.
Also your logic fails because you say plenty of people misinterpet the Quran and use it to carry out terrorist acts. I know that you are trying to say that Quran is open to interpretation but it is NOT. What is the point of having a religion if you can just choose how to interpret it? Rather the religion has only one interpretation and that is the true meaning of it but due to the sickness of some people they manipulate the meaning into something that suits what they want to do.

This is no new thing. For example, people are always manipulating law and using it to their advantage. That does not mean that law is open to interpretation. The whole purpose of law is to give a CLEAR unambiguous ruling so that there is no confusion over what is right/wrong. This logic applies to the purpose of religions.
I didn't say they misinterpert it- they just pay more attention to the violent parts, while others pay more attention to the peaceful parts.

I'm sure the people who interpret it differently than you ALSO say it isn't open to interpertation. Look- if it was so obvious what the "right" interpretation was, there would only be one sect of Islam, and all Muslims would agree about everything. They don't.

Even law is open to interpretation. That's what judges do- interpret how the law applies when there is a disagreement. Imams do the same with the Koran.


Quote:
3.
You have made the point that Islam has a disproportionate number of people that support terrorism. I am very unclear about where you get this from. There are over 1 billion muslims in the world today, I think back in 2009 it was something like 1.5 billion which is a huge number. You have used one questionable study which says Pakistan has around 50% approval rating of Al-Queda.

I dont understand what that proves. I know for a fact that MOST muslims do not agree with killing innocent people even if the media does not show this. That has nothing to do with being muslim. It is part of basic human instinct that tells us killing, stealing etc are WRONG irrespective of what religion/way of life you follow.
And I also said that MOST muslims are peaceful. That doesn't mean that there are a disproportionately high number of violent crazies. They still stone people to death in some Muslim countries!

Quote:
Anyway, lets not forget history. There have been plenty of wars because of other religions and even just over land in general. That is how many countries have been formed and it's just the way things are. People will always like to spread their rule across the world. Western governments like UK and US will never accept that Muslims might just have a DIFFERENT way of life and want to impose their way of life on the east.
The treatment of women in Muslim countries for instance isn't just different- it's inferior. Punishing rape VICTIMS is not just different- it's inferior. Honor killings aren't just different ways of dealing with problems- it's an inferior way. The bronze-age brutality advised by Sharia, and the force applied to keep people in that religion is not just different- it's inferior.

Quote:
I watched an interview of Tony Blair the other day where he made fun of Shariah law. You may call it barbaric if you want but many countries in the world use capital punishment. Who the fuck gives Bush, Blair or anyone the right to call someone else barbaric? At the end of the day there is noone who can tell us what is right/wrong because everyone has a different interpretation of these things.
Two wrongs don't make a right. I'm against capital punishement, but capital punishment by stoning with small stones, particularly for minor, non-life-or-death infractions, is a whole different level of backwards barbarism.
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      09-09-2010, 10:46 AM   #32
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Whether you are in favor or against this book burning, it would be nearly a non-event except for one thing: The damn media!!!!

Without all the media coverage, I doubt we'd have commanders in AFG worried about it, or Obama opening his mouth about it. And after stepping on his dick about the NYC mosque, the last thing Obama needs is to have more soundbites about Islam.

Had the media been, "Oh, you're going to burn the Qur'an? Well, you're an idiot but this is America so you have the right. But we'll go find some REAL news that is worthy of coverage instead", this whole thing would probably have gone away.
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      09-09-2010, 10:46 AM   #33
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The following Haddith passages provides encouragement to die fighting for Islam...

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martyr’s privileges are guaranteed by Allah; forgiveness with the first gush of his blood, he will be shown his seat in paradise, he will be decorated with the jewels of belief, married off to the beautiful ones, protected from the test in the grave, assured security in the day of judgment, crowned with the crown of dignity, a ruby of which is better than this whole world and its entire content, wedded to seventy-two of the pure Houris (beautiful women of Paradise) and his intercession on the behalf of seventy of his relatives will be accepted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sura 4:74
4:74 Let those of you who are willing to trade the life of this world for the life to come, fight [q-t-l] in God’s way. To anyone who fights [q-t-l] in God’s way, whether killed [q-t-l] or victorious, We shall give a great reward
More motivation to fight

Quote:
"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly" 8:60
And many more where that came from. However, I do recognize there are many reconcilatory and peaceful passages as well. You can basically make it say whatever you want it to say.

What's really needed is for people to not believe in magic books, and make their own decisions based on the outcomes, rather than what they think god(s) want them to do.
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      09-09-2010, 11:12 AM   #34
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I don't agree with this guy burning the books because it is serving no point but I don't see why everyone is calling him a nut... I think the reaction this guy is getting is 1000x crazier than he is.
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      09-09-2010, 12:05 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by MONSTER11 View Post
I don't agree with this guy burning the books because it is serving no point but I don't see why everyone is calling him a nut... I think the reaction this guy is getting is 1000x crazier than he is.
You are crazier than he is then
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      09-09-2010, 12:46 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghosthi32 View Post
You are crazier than he is then
Right... Because burning a quran is crazier than making death threats to a whole nation all because one person in that nation decided to burn a quran. So, I'm guessing the guy that drew muhammad as a cartoon character is a crazy s.o.b. and deserved all the threats against his life as well... You sir, are a f'n moron.
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      09-09-2010, 01:00 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MONSTER11 View Post
Right... Because burning a quran is crazier than making death threats to a whole nation all because one person in that nation decided to burn a quran. So, I'm guessing the guy that drew muhammad as a cartoon character is a crazy s.o.b. and deserved all the threats against his life as well... You sir, are a f'n moron.
well you sir need to learn how to explain what reactions you are talking about. I thought you were talking about normal people's reactions not the aallalallalala boom people's. i no where said that the extremist reactions were justified.
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      09-09-2010, 01:00 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MONSTER11 View Post
Right... Because burning a quran is crazier than making death threats to a whole nation all because one person in that nation decided to burn a quran. So, I'm guessing the guy that drew muhammad as a cartoon character is a crazy s.o.b. and deserved all the threats against his life as well... You sir, are a f'n moron.
carve for president. How dare you!!!

what he said is truth, you dont understand his words.

A muslim is not evil, is the Islam and the Quran. Our religion wasnt better (remember the crusades) but thats centuries ago! nobody in USA or Europe kill nobody in the name of religion. But a radical there, only needs to take a Quran, preach somebody in the name of Ala, and then you got houndred of crazy people screaming and capable to bomb anything for.

Thats the problem.

Whats the name of the pastor church? im gonna follow him you fucking mr.tolerance happy cool people!!!
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      09-09-2010, 01:38 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghosthi32 View Post
well you sir need to learn how to explain what reactions you are talking about. I thought you were talking about normal people's reactions not the aallalallalala boom people's. i no where said that the extremist reactions were justified.
I guess we are both at fault, I didn't explain myself and you assumed. I apologize.
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      09-09-2010, 01:42 PM   #40
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Now that I think about it... F it, he should piss on them while he is at it. He is doing it to offend the muslim extremist, not moderate muslims and they should know that.
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      09-09-2010, 01:54 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MONSTER11 View Post
Now that I think about it... F it, he should piss on them while he is at it. He is doing it to offend the muslim extremist, not moderate muslims and they should know that.
So then you wouldn't take offense to a group burning the bible, as long as they said their intentions were just to offend the Christian extremists here in the states?
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      09-09-2010, 02:06 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Negotiator View Post
Who cares? Someone linked a video of some dude loling at the guy. Isn't burning the book the only appropriate way of disposing of the Quaran?
I believe there's another...



Bottom line is that this guy/ Pastor has every right under our 1st amendment to burn whatever book he wants to just the same way that everyone has a right to criticize him for doing so. More power to him if he pisses off those that only care to cause harm to Americans. The rest (that don't comprehend his stand or rights) should peak out of their pigeonhole to see past their own fears and realize we should have much larger stones as a Country.

Last edited by MAZNG; 09-09-2010 at 02:16 PM.
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      09-09-2010, 02:06 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneSkippy View Post
So then you wouldn't take offense to a group burning the bible, as long as they said their intentions were just to offend the Christian extremists here in the states?
Haven't really heard of "christian extremists" that are comparable to muslim extremist... But it would be there right to do it and it really wouldn't be my problem, it would be between them and God.
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      09-09-2010, 02:23 PM   #44
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More from the religion of peace...

Quote:
"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding" 8:65

"يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ حَرِّضِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَلَى الْقِتَالِ إِن يَكُن مِّنكُمْ عِشْرُونَ صَابِرُونَ يَغْلِبُواْ مِئَتَيْنِ وَإِن يَكُن مِّنكُم مِّئَةٌ يَغْلِبُواْ أَلْفًا مِّنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ لاَّ يَفْقَهُونَ" الأنفال 65:8

"Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, and heal the breasts of the Believers" 9:14



14:9

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"

29:9

"Say: can you expect for us (and fate) other than one of two glorious things (martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment (for not believing in Allah) from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you" 9:52
Here's one SPECIFICALLY promoting terrrorism...

Quote:
Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly" 8:60
Yeah- why would any westerner have a problem with that?

You can find some pretty awful stuff in the bible, too, but people don't take it as seriously as the Muslims. If you think you do, when was the last time you stoned someone?

Look- these are just the claims of some guy who said he heard voices in a cave. Why would you believe that?

Last edited by carve; 09-09-2010 at 02:29 PM.
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