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      08-24-2010, 07:06 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thud View Post
I'd love to see a similar comparison between the 2011 GT500 and M3.... that would be no contest. But the GT500 is still less money.
I'm not so convinced the GT500 would put that much distance on the GT (or, by extension, the M3). At the very least, the new Boss, especially the Leguna Seca, will be giving the GT500 a run for its money on a track, in my opinion.
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      08-24-2010, 07:20 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Kyoshi71 View Post
1989 5.0 Huh? Lovable car with the exception of 3rd gear.

The Rustangs used to be lined-up down the block to get the ol' Borg Warner T-5 3rd gear swapped out.
I love my 135 as well, even after headlights replaced, taillights replaced, third brake light replaced, waiting quietly for my HPFP to die, etc. The point wasn't that Ford is flawless, it was that they made cars that people loved. GT500? Cosworth Escort? New Focus RS? RS 500? C'mon. Hell I bet the Fiesta Turbo is a blast.

Just because AMERICANS want gas guzzling boats doesn't mean that's all a maker is good for. If we didn't buy them, they wouldn't make them. So whos fault is that? Why don't we have Civic Type R's or M3 GTS's\CSL's? I can't believe how I have to defend decent cars\makers sometimes on this forum.
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      08-24-2010, 07:21 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by SnakeKiller View Post
Robert, there's two Boss 302 models. the Laguna Seca variant which there will only be a limited run of 50.
I'm curious where these numbers are coming from. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I would be extremely surprised if they really only build 50 Leguna Seca models. If they do, they will surely MSRP for at least $65-$80k, because its obvious they spent some R&D specifically on this model. It has plenty of unique parts, and not just mechanical parts either. You need economies of scale to pay for that, or a giant MSRP.

Quote:
the regular Boss 302 will be limited to, 600 to 5000 models
Again, I would be surprised if it is anywhere near as scarce as your lower number. I would guess production at least as high as the GT500 (coupe), if not double that.
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      08-24-2010, 08:17 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by foosh View Post
The Mustang platform is even older, and a solid axle at that. Ford has just done a better job of tweaking to make an old platform reach it's max level of performance.
2011 (or was it 2010) is a new body.

styling is refreshed interior(i think)/exterior

3 series interior is the same. i think they were talking about interior.
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      08-24-2010, 08:56 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue View Post
Really, and you know this how? They will be now. My friend just sold his e92 M3 for a Raptor.
This makes no sense? So you're using the example of your friend trading a m3 for a Raptor to equate that someone is going to cross-shop a m3 for a Mustang? Maybe your friend needed a pickup bed?

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Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue View Post
Well, I have a 1 series, so.......I gues I'm ten times more exclusive than you lol. (I don't really care about that fact, I just stated that because I thought it would make you smile )
The previous poster's comment about the Mustang not being exclusive is so true. Look, I like the Mustang, but unless you really look, you're not going to tell the difference on the 5.0 to the v6 version unless you look hard. No matter what folks say about the M3 looking like a 3 series, people who are looking do know the M3 is special, and different from the regular 3. Same thing when people saw a RS4, and notice there was something more menacing about it compared to a standard a4 car.
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      08-24-2010, 09:05 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by DefBringer View Post
In the BMW's defense, it is an old design...going on 6 years now.
The E90/92/M3 interior was OLD the first day it came out. Reminiscent of 90's cars. Very boring, small buttons, even bad ergonomics compared to the e46 design.
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      08-24-2010, 09:07 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by warzilla View Post
This makes no sense? So you're using the example of your friend trading a m3 for a Raptor to equate that someone is going to cross-shop a m3 for a Mustang? Maybe your friend needed a pickup bed?
No, I was saying that now because of the performance of the GT, people will most likely cross-shop them. And the reference to my friend was just to prove that one can go from a BMW to a Ford. I only made that reference because he presumed that Ford did not make attractive vehicles in general and that BMW was somehow far superior.


Quote:
Originally Posted by warzilla View Post
The previous poster's comment about the Mustang not being exclusive is so true. Look, I like the Mustang, but unless you really look, you're not going to tell the difference on the 5.0 to the v6 version unless you look hard. No matter what folks say about the M3 looking like a 3 series, people who are looking do know the M3 is special, and different from the regular 3. Same thing when people saw a RS4, and notice there was something more menacing about it compared to a standard a4 car.
So a 335i with M3 body pieces is just as exclusive as an M3? Gotcha. Somehow an M3 is magically set apart from a 328 TO THE MASSES, but a 5.0 GT is clearly a "normal" mustang. All I needed was a quad exhaust and even e9x drivers asked me if it was an M3. LOL You guys are taking it WAY too serious.
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      08-24-2010, 09:20 AM   #96
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The Mustang got refreshed in MY 2010, yes.

In any case, the point is, both platforms are old. The Mustang platform arrived in late 2004 (as a MY2005), while the E9x arrived in early 2005 (as a MY2006). That said, obviously the M3 was developed long before the new 5.0L GT and Boss 302.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burrito007 View Post
2011 (or was it 2010) is a new body.

styling is refreshed interior(i think)/exterior

3 series interior is the same. i think they were talking about interior.
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      08-24-2010, 09:20 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by foosh View Post
.....
Yep , i failed

But still i'd prefer BMW over Ford.

Nothing else feels like BMW , the driver=car connection is amazing..
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      08-24-2010, 09:26 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue View Post
So a 335i with M3 body pieces is just as exclusive as an M3? Gotcha. Somehow an M3 is magically set apart from a 328 TO THE MASSES, but a 5.0 GT is clearly a "normal" mustang. All I needed was a quad exhaust and even e9x drivers asked me if it was an M3. LOL You guys are taking it WAY too serious.
No, a 335i with M-performance parts is not as exclusive as the M3. Note: its not M3 body parts but M-performance. And yes, a M3 is set apart to the 328 to the masses. If you don't agree, thats your prerogative, but I had a 335i coupe and now an M3, and trust me, people compliment me in the M3, where they never did in the 335i. So, i guess the public must know the difference, huh?

I really think you need to brush up on your reading/writing comprehensive skills, cause you seem to not understand what you read nor completely convey what you write. Sorry for the insult but you seem a bit off.
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      08-24-2010, 09:31 AM   #99
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Ive sat in the new Mustang and I certainly dont think the M3 is overpriced in comparison. Just sit in a Mustang and feel around. Everything looks and feels cheaper. It doesnt take long to realize why your paying more for an M3. So maybe it matches the M3 in the performance categories, but you can't really compare the two in an apples to apples format and say the M3 is overpriced. How many people would trade their M3 for a Mustang and 20K right now after this article?
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      08-24-2010, 09:35 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue View Post
No, I was saying that now because of the performance of the GT, people will most likely cross-shop them.
I tend to agree and here's why.

It might very well be true that, generally speaking, people do not cross-shop luxury branded vehicles with non-luxury branded vehicles. In fact, I would say that's probably a fact. However, performance models present an interesting exception. When it comes to those of us who rank pure performance high on the list of shopping criteria, I would say that cross-shopping between luxury and non-luxury brands is much more common-place. Don't get me wrong, I know that many of us enthusiasts still like to be pampered too. But when push comes to shove I think the majority of us will give up some luxury for better performance.

It's not uncommon for the Z06 to come up in discussion around here, for example. Clearly that's not a luxury car, but it does deliver very compelling performance for the money. Sure, it might carry a very luxury-sized price tag. But it is not a luxury car by any stretch.

The new Mustang GT presents any interesting case. M3 performance for the price of a 328i. On a 40k budget, I'd wager that less than a quarter of M3 owners would genuinely find the 328i more appealing than the Mustang GT. Perhaps more than that would end up with the BMW for other reasons (simple brand preference or "snobbery" among them), but I'll bet that at least half of us, given a 40k budget, will actually go test drive the GT and probably a lot of us would take it home. Granted those numbers are SWAGs, but I doubt I am far off here.

Going forward, people looking for a high performance coupe with a 400hp+ V8 will have to give the Mustang a second look. And lets be honest, after 2013, the M3 won't even satisfy that criteria anymore.
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      08-24-2010, 09:36 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warzilla View Post
No, a 335i with M-performance parts is not as exclusive as the M3. Note: its not M3 body parts but M-performance. And yes, a M3 is set apart to the 328 to the masses. If you don't agree, thats your prerogative, but I had a 335i coupe and now an M3, and trust me, people compliment me in the M3, where they never did in the 335i. So, i guess the public must know the difference, huh?

I really think you need to brush up on your reading/writing comprehensive skills, cause you seem to not understand what you read nor completely convey what you write. Sorry for the insult but you seem a bit off.
Wow, I'm off? Did I say "a 335i with performance parts"? No, I said with M3 body parts. You had a 335i and you never saw anybody use the powerdome hoods, m3 fenders, etc? Maybe you need to READ instead of worrying about others comprehension. Yeah, you're right, the masses know the difference. HA! You would've recieved the same compliments had you modded your 335i accordingly. But, whatever helps you sleep at night.
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      08-24-2010, 09:37 AM   #102
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m3 looks much better though.
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      08-24-2010, 09:41 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaGoneRogue View Post
Wow, I'm off? Did I say "a 335i with performance parts"? No, I said with M3 body parts. You had a 335i and you never saw anybody use the powerdome hoods, m3 fenders, etc? Maybe you need to READ instead of worrying about others comprehension. Yeah, you're right, the masses know the difference. HA! You would've got the same compliments had you modded your 335i accordingly. But, whatever helps you sleep at night.
I sleep fine HondaGoneRouge.

No, I never saw people put actual M parts on their cars, except on this forum in the gallery section - which seems like an aberration, not very common.

As for your reading/writing comprehension skills, just trying to give you some friendly advice, for whatever its worth. But keep on going, you seem to be doing just fine...
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      08-24-2010, 09:43 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warzilla View Post
No, a 335i with M-performance parts is not as exclusive as the M3. Note: its not M3 body parts but M-performance. And yes, a M3 is set apart to the 328 to the masses. If you don't agree, thats your prerogative, but I had a 335i coupe and now an M3, and trust me, people compliment me in the M3, where they never did in the 335i. So, i guess the public must know the difference, huh?

I really think you need to brush up on your reading/writing comprehensive skills, cause you seem to not understand what you read nor completely convey what you write. Sorry for the insult but you seem a bit off.
i agree. even go back to the e46 m3 generation. please ask anyone to look at the regular e46 3 series and ask them if it looks the same as the e46 m3. huge different although they based on the same body style.

anyone who said the m3 and regular 3 series look the same is either ignorant or need to get their eyes check asap. they may not know the different model name such as m3, 335i, etc....but they sure as hell know which one look better even if they don't know cars.

the changes are subtle, but very noticeable at the same time. the hood bulge with air intake vents on the each side, side vents, quad exausts, aggresive front pumber, carbon roof, v8 sounds, etc

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      08-24-2010, 09:54 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I tend to agree and here's why.

It might very well be true that, generally speaking, people do not cross-shop luxury branded vehicles with non-luxury branded vehicles. In fact, I would say that's probably a fact. However, performance models present an interesting exception. When it comes to those of us who rank pure performance high on the list of shopping criteria, I would say that cross-shopping between luxury and non-luxury brands is much more common-place. Don't get me wrong, I know that many of us enthusiasts still like to be pampered too. But when push comes to shove I think the majority of us will give up some luxury for better performance.

It's not uncommon for the Z06 to come up in discussion around here, for example. Clearly that's not a luxury car, but it does deliver very compelling performance for the money. Sure, it might carry a very luxury-sized price tag. But it is not a luxury car by any stretch.

The new Mustang GT presents any interesting case. M3 performance for the price of a 328i. On a 40k budget, I'd wager that less than a quarter of M3 owners would genuinely find the 328i more appealing than the Mustang GT. Perhaps more than that would end up with the BMW for other reasons (simple brand preference or "snobbery" among them), but I'll bet that at least half of us, given a 40k budget, will actually go test drive the GT and probably a lot of us would take it home. Granted those numbers are SWAGs, but I doubt I am far off here.

Going forward, people looking for a high performance coupe with a 400hp+ V8 will have to give the Mustang a second look. And lets be honest, after 2013, the M3 won't even satisfy that criteria anymore.
ha! leave it to a michigan guy to get it right! Well said.
I am a good example of someone who cross shops performance oriented vehicles. I am looking at the M3, the new 550 (with big tuning potential) and the mustang--as we speak. (plus-look at my garage)

Do I think for a second that the new stang is the same level car as an M3? Hell no. But will I consider it? Hell yes. Great performance in both the twisties and a straight line. And ford announced over the weekend that you can add a factory supercharger at the dealership to get 525 HP with warranty, or, 624 HP without. that is a compelling case.

As previously stated--one potential downside is lack of exclusivity--which does weigh in for me. On the other hand, each mustang will be highly customized and can be made very unique via mods, paint, stripes, body moldings and wheels.

a 525 hp stang that can run neck and neck on a track with an M3, and neck and neck in a straightline with a CTS-V, that is compelling to many, including me. Again--do I think it would be the "total package" car that the M3 is--no.

But if it feels connected to the road at 75-80% of how my BMW or an M3 might, for that proce, I just might do it.
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      08-24-2010, 10:08 AM   #106
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You know what it is amusing?

How easily threads like this one can reveal whom among us are driving enthusiasts and whom are BMW brand cheerleaders caught up in status and show.

It would take a bona fide moron to choose the Mustang over the M3, the M3 is the superior car (I have driven both...more than a couple of times). That's not the point. What's the point, and truly what irks me, is that we're comparing a M3 with a garden variety American pony car. BMW came to the table with an engine that is a joy to drive at 9/10ths but simply does not have the low-end grunt or fuel efficiency of its competitors. Surely, some of this has to do with the M3's weight. But look at the fuel economy of the similarly heavy Mustang: 16/24. Oh, it can also run on 87 octane for car trips.

Simply put, the S650 is just not as good as an engine as the 5.0. It makes less power, substantially less torque, can run on cheaper fuel, gets better gas mileage, and most likely will prove to easier to repair. Is it as free-revving and enjoyable as the S650? Not quite...but I'd say it's 8/10ths of the way there.

It's too bad I couldn't buy a Mustang. They're just simply hideous, IMHO.
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      08-24-2010, 10:16 AM   #107
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I agree with most of what you guys are saying, but lets not discount the Mustang GT changes (never mind the Boss and GT500) vs. the base model either. Are they as distinct as an M3 vs. a 3 series? No. But there are differences in fascias, wheels, and other body elements. Bottom line is that most of what you say below applies to the Mustang case as well. People will notice the differences, even if they don't know which as which, and will prefer the looks of the GT. There is no hood vents, exhaust tips, or wider fenders to set them apart, no, but the engine note is still a dead give away in this case just like with the M3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by graider View Post
i agree. even go back to the e46 m3 generation. please ask anyone to look at the regular e46 3 series and ask them if it looks the same as the e46 m3. huge different although they based on the same body style.

anyone who said the m3 and regular 3 series look the same is either ignorant or need to get their eyes check asap. they may not know the different model name such as m3, 335i, etc....but they sure as hell know which one look better even if they don't know cars.

the changes are subtle, but very noticeable at the same time. the hood bulge with air intake vents on the each side, side vents, quad exausts, aggresive front pumber, carbon roof, v8 sounds, etc
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      08-24-2010, 10:20 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I'm curious where these numbers are coming from. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I would be extremely surprised if they really only build 50 Leguna Seca models. If they do, they will surely MSRP for at least $65-$80k, because its obvious they spent some R&D specifically on this model. It has plenty of unique parts, and not just mechanical parts either. You need economies of scale to pay for that, or a giant MSRP.



Again, I would be surprised if it is anywhere near as scarce as your lower number. I would guess production at least as high as the GT500 (coupe), if not double that.
the regular Boss 302 will carry the price of this vehicles.
the numbers will be around 5k a year just like the GT500, with a build schedule of only 2 years(big rumor is they are doing 69 colors, for 2012 and 70 colors for 2013)

Ford said the boss will fill the void in between the GT and GT500
i expect a prise of 38k to 45k(excluding the LS)
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      08-24-2010, 10:21 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
I kinda find this test funny, Ford builds one qood car and that is it they are suddenly the premier automaker on the planet!
I'm confused, are you interested in buying Ford motor company or one of their cars?


Quote:
The M3 and Mustang GT are almost never cross shopped. I do respect that the 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 is an amazing performer and give credit where credit is due but I for one don't place all my weight on 0-60 and quarter-mile times.
I've cross-shopped them. I don't really care a lot about 0-60 or 1/4 mile times as I do the driving experience. It's a good thing R&T included race track lap times...which you conveniently omit from your tirade.

Quote:
A car company has to earn a reputation by building quality products over a long period of time. The Germans have been getting praise and accolades for 25 years now for delivering amazing cars that people loved to own and drive.
Again, I'm confused. Are you trying to sell your BMW stock to someone here? Or are we debating the merits of two cars?

Quote:
If Ford continues to deliver products like this for the next 5, 10, 20 years then maybe they will enjoy a reputation as a true competitor to the German marques.
If you had even the slightest knowledge of motor racing history you would realize how ridiculous your statement is.

Quote:
By The Way: One thing a Mustang owner will never get is Exclusivity..... no matter what model or colour mustang you get there are gonna be tens of thousands out their exactly like yours. That may not matter to most people but it matters to me.
Ok, so you would rather drive an exclusive car than a common car? What if the world was full of Porsche 911's and there were only a tiny, tiny number of Pontiac Vibes in existence? By your logic you'd prefer the Vibe.

In summary...

You're a pretender. You don't deserve the car you drive because you own it for the wrong reasons; to impress people and to make you feel like a more substantial person than you are.

That said, I do think the M3 is clearly the superior car for absolutely none of the reasons you give.
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      08-24-2010, 10:27 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeKiller View Post
the regular Boss 302 will carry the price of this vehicles.
No idea what you just said, sorry.

Quote:
the numbers will be around 5k a year just like the GT500, with a build schedule of only 2 years
Yeah, 5k is very believable. 600 was not. I am still not buying that there will only be 50 LS either.

Quote:
(big rumor is they are doing 69 colors, for 2012 and 70 colors for 2013)
LOL because I thought for a second that you meant 69 and 70 (like you wrote) and not '69 and '70 (1969 and 1970).

Quote:
Ford said the boss will fill the void in between the GT and GT500
i expect a prise of 38k to 45k(excluding the LS)
That is what I would guess for base MSRP as well. Actually I would say $40k-$45k.
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