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      09-22-2010, 11:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Something looks completely f*ed up about that baseline result. These motors don't flatline at 7000 RPMs like that.
Doh! Got it. Look at the curves before 7000 RPM and they just look like many other solid tunes/flashes. Disregard stock numbers above 7000 RPM. I should have picked up on that. But I have only been reading up on M3 mods for couple days.

Coming for Audi and Porsche land.

BTW, I will be bugging you a bit. I spent most of the evening reading your blog and forum.
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      09-23-2010, 02:32 AM   #24
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Ugh, I hope we don't have to have vendors and dyno shops log TPS along with baselines...
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      09-23-2010, 05:36 AM   #25
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Similar gains to what I got. I drove my friends stock e90 M3, same transmission and wow do they literally feel like different cars.
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      09-23-2010, 05:37 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Something looks completely f*ed up about that baseline result. These motors don't flatline at 7000 RPMs like that.
My HP curve did on a couple different dynos after 7k it just goes flat but doesn't drop. The tune Jeremy did made it keep climbing..
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      09-23-2010, 10:13 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
This motor does not behave like that -- it does not go flat after 7000 RPMs. I just looked through approximately 80 of the 250+ entries in the Dyno Database, and these are the only other two I could find that looked like this.

http://bmw.pencilgeek.org/showDyno.php?recID=175
http://bmw.pencilgeek.org/showDyno.php?recID=106
It does on my dynapack when the AFR goes mid to high 10s up top since the stock dme and the x pipe tend to not play along. Or when the car gets too hot. Seen it a few times. JM2C

I'm sure I could fish out a couple example when I'm back by the dyno computer.
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      09-23-2010, 12:56 PM   #28
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These engines make power all the way to the limiter........

Power does stop climbing hard after 7k but it will not remain constant from there on and still rise.

It certainly CANNOT fall unless it's strapped down too hard. Simply loosen the straps and power goes up everywhere. Known fact on a dyno dynamics.

A completely natural and average power graph of an E92 M3:



Another one which is a bit on the low side in terms of power and torque - notice it still makes the correct type of graph shape at high rpm's.



DCT car:




If we were to really strap these cars down hard they would make the same graph shape (with slightly less power) all the way to 7000rpm and then totally go flat.

It might be that the Gintani cars are so so powerful afterwards that they cannot be held down and before (as standard) they just haven't got the grunt. maybe.....

Last edited by Sal@Evolve; 09-23-2010 at 01:32 PM.
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      09-23-2010, 12:58 PM   #29
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      09-23-2010, 01:30 PM   #30
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Which filter did you switch to?
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      09-23-2010, 05:13 PM   #31
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Nice jab at Gintani, Sal . Aren't you the SAME guy that said that S65 engines CANNOT be tuned correctly using meth . I would not take your opinion seriously, as you're very biased when comes to OE/Gintani
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      09-23-2010, 05:45 PM   #32
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Hey pencilgeek if you have a happy customer like the op who is sharing his results from the dyno, why can't you just let it be....? We know you hate gintani, so drop it. I don't get why you keep smashing these posts. Get over it man, it's a car, and the op's a happy customer.
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      09-23-2010, 08:42 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Something looks completely f*ed up about that baseline result. These motors don't flatline at 7000 RPMs like that.
Here's one of my stock baselines.....

dynapack, no straps....
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      09-23-2010, 10:32 PM   #34
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But basically I showed it's possible, and it happens, 1/2 of my runs ended up like this, unless the car got really cold and made a glory pass. You need alot of fresh air on M3/M5/M6 to have the car not nose dive up top and this requires some pretty expensive fans. They are air hungry cars.

I do at least 20 runs a week with this dynapack. So it's possible the car was a) hot b) really rich from untuned with x-pipe. So insinuating they fudged the numbers isn't really fair at all.
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      09-23-2010, 10:37 PM   #35
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Oh snap ! Nice evidence bro, so now what do you guys have to say?

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But basically I showed it's possible, and it happens, 1/2 of my runs ended up like this, unless the car got really cold and made a glory pass. You need alot of fresh air on M3/M5/M6 to have the car not nose dive up top and this requires some pretty expensive fans. They are air hungry cars.

I do at least 20 runs a week with this dynapack. So it's possible the car was a) hot b) really rich from untuned with x-pipe. So insinuating they fudged the numbers isn't really fair at all.
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      09-24-2010, 02:31 AM   #36
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Thread has been cleaned up. The affected members will be notified shortly.


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      09-24-2010, 04:45 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powertrip View Post
Nice jab at Gintani, Sal . Aren't you the SAME guy that said that S65 engines CANNOT be tuned correctly using meth . I would not take your opinion seriously, as you're very biased when comes to OE/Gintani
I have no issue with Gintani/OE. I don't spend my time going out to get them and I really have no interest in bashing them. I have nothing to gain from it.

I have absolutely no issue with people questioning our graphs either. Actually I invite this as it only helps to educate people more about dyno's and understanding graphs.

This is the first time I have read anywhere that someone has accused me of me being biased. I will speak with them directly to make this clear because what we don't need is another war between another two companies.

I am very consistent on posting about dyno graphs no matter where or who they are from including companies where I know the owners personally. I do not make an instant assumption that there is foul play going on. There are errors that can be made and they are incredibly easy to make.

As an example, I get along just fine with Eloy@Rpi but I will question graphs.
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      09-24-2010, 06:07 AM   #38
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I have an Evolve dyno plot for mine and it pulls all the way to over 8k. It definitely doesn't go flat at 7k.

I have never scanned it, but it almost exactly resembles the shape of the pencilgeek plots and the Evolve plots posted above.
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      09-24-2010, 06:56 AM   #39
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I probably have over 50+ run files on my car from stock to full bolt on. Some I would scrap because they are uselessly heatsoaked.

Each can be drastically different with the same dynapack settings. If you have any tricks for ramp and start rpm on a DCT car that work best I'll try them.

With flashing a M-DCT, every time you put a new file, or have to cycle the key at ALL, you have to put the stupid car back into dyno mode, which takes 5-7 minutes of aimless revving and heating the car up, coolant, IAT's etc. That makes it extremely hard to get a good figure. I end up just leaving the car on accessory outside of flashing in between runs so I don't have to do this procedure. Needless to say after knowing what I know with this car if G just posted a one pass quick baseline and then the final tune their above results are 100% possible.

I also had problems with my car's older stock software holding 14.7 AFR all the way to redline which caused a flat line too when I added rear section exhaust, I'm wondering how many other M3's are doing that as well on stock files. The stock file I posted above did not have AFR problems.

Good thing is I just picked up a massive air tunnel with more then enough CFM to dry your whole car down in a few seconds. This should hopefully give the M car's what they need. I have no problems with sub 400whp turbo cars or anything with the current setup.

Even with no air and hot IAT's and 101 shop temp we were able to get 396whp the other day with tune/test pipes/mufflers. With the new fan setup working now we will hopefully get over 400.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Yes, I'm very familiar with the air requirements of the modern BMW engine. In fact, I researched it and wrote an article about it nearly two years ago when I started dynoing and modifying my own car.

For the record, I insinuated absolutely nothing at all about this baseline run, and I still do not. Please ignore the trolls and tools here who get their rocks off putting words into other people's mouths and twisting around the things people say.

So let's recap and start over. There are over 250 very well documented dyno entries in the BMW Dyno Database. Every modification for every car for every dyno chart is well documented, and is sortable and searchable. The BMW Dyno Database is not hard to find.

Of course flatlining at 7000 RPMs is possible, it even happened to me ONCE that I know if. Flatlining is by no means normal -- especially not 50% normal. If it were a 50% normal occurance, then 50% of all of the entries in the DynoDB would look like this -- as opposed to the only three that I manged to find this morning. If you're experiencing flatlining 50% of the time, then I'd say you're definitely doing something wrong at your dyno. Just look in the Dyno Database and you will see this is not a 50% occurance.

If you're concerned that this flatlining might have been caused by slapping on a x-pipe without retuning (or any other component), then the Dyno Database will help figure that out as well. From the main page, you can simply select the option to filter our all entries that do not contain a x-pipe and then look at the results. You can apply multiple filters any way you want (as many times as you want) to narrow down your search.

I just counted 32 different Dynapack dyno files I have from my car. Apparently I've dyno'd many more times than I realized. At least 8 of these files are directly available for download through the Dyno Database. If you want to acquire all 32 of my dyno files to see how many times I flatlined, you're welcome to them -- just contact me. Of course, you're welcome to get them just for comparative purposes for other cars you dyno. I'll be happy to tell you exactly what mods exist for each set of dyno files. Many of the dyno files have a full 6 runs in them -- so there's a LOT of dyno runs available.

Conversely, if you have many dyno runs of your own that you'd like to share, I'd love to put them in the DynoDB. For each entry, I'd need to get the vehicle, transmission type, list of all performance modifications, and gasoline used, along with a dyno chart.



Oh double snap...I'd say I wrote about this same subject nearly two years ago and you probably didn't bother to read it -- or more likely called BS on it. Try reading the articles sometime powertrip instead of stalking forums for people you dislike and causing drama. I fully understand you don't want to learn anything, but there are plenty of people here who do.

Last edited by BT M3; 09-24-2010 at 07:03 AM.
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      09-24-2010, 07:27 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BT M3 View Post
I probably have over 50+ run files on my car from stock to full bolt on. Some I would scrap because they are uselessly heatsoaked.

Each can be drastically different with the same dynapack settings. If you have any tricks for ramp and start rpm on a DCT car that work best I'll try them.

With flashing a M-DCT, every time you put a new file, or have to cycle the key at ALL, you have to put the stupid car back into dyno mode, which takes 5-7 minutes of aimless revving and heating the car up, coolant, IAT's etc. That makes it extremely hard to get a good figure. I end up just leaving the car on accessory outside of flashing in between runs so I don't have to do this procedure. Needless to say after knowing what I know with this car if G just posted a one pass quick baseline and then the final tune their above results are 100% possible.

I also had problems with my car's older stock software holding 14.7 AFR all the way to redline which caused a flat line too when I added rear section exhaust, I'm wondering how many other M3's are doing that as well on stock files. The stock file I posted above did not have AFR problems.

Good thing is I just picked up a massive air tunnel with more then enough CFM to dry your whole car down in a few seconds. This should hopefully give the M car's what they need. I have no problems with sub 400whp turbo cars or anything with the current setup.

Even with no air and hot IAT's and 101 shop temp we were able to get 396whp the other day with tune/test pipes/mufflers. With the new fan setup working now we will hopefully get over 400.
Hi,

getting the car into dyno mode takes seconds even after flashing.

14.7 AFR all the way to red line would suggest your not getting full load and the ramp rate is wrong. Or, the tuning applied is just removing way too much fuel.

Has the stoichometric lambda factor or fuel scaling been changed by any chance? Or possibly the wrong changes made to the fuel factor table?

Adequate cooling as you have already seen is incredibly important.

Do you monitor IAT's/EGT/Coolant Temps while testing?
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      09-24-2010, 08:27 AM   #41
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Hi,

getting the car into dyno mode takes seconds even after flashing.

14.7 AFR all the way to red line would suggest your not getting full load and the ramp rate is wrong. Or, the tuning applied is just removing way too much fuel.

Has the stoichometric lambda factor or fuel scaling been changed by any chance? Or possibly the wrong changes made to the fuel factor table?

Adequate cooling as you have already seen is incredibly important.

Do you monitor IAT's/EGT/Coolant Temps while testing?
Hi Sal,

Got your PM.

Dyno mode on my 10' DCT requires me to turn off DTC, and drive at 1500-2000rpms in 2nd gear for about 3-5 minutes sometimes longer steady till all the abs/wheel sensor warning lights engage on the dash. If you have a quicker way to avoid this annoyance and induced heatsoak, please let me know. Perhaps our new cooling system may fix this.

I was getting 14.7 on full load on the street, dyno, you name it. This was happening on the 100% stock map. Car actually tolerated it well but it made extremely poor power.

I monitor coolant/IAT/EGT between and before passes for best accuracy. Sometimes I hotlap it in bad conditions for testing as well.

Last edited by BT M3; 09-24-2010 at 08:39 AM.
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      09-24-2010, 10:06 AM   #42
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Ok cool,

we discuss this on another thread or PM rather than hijack this thread.
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      09-24-2010, 10:53 AM   #43
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Quote:
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There's a much better way to get the DCT into Dyno Mode on the Dynapack that doesn't require you to drive it 5-7 minutes. There's an ABS fuse you can remove that I think allows you to run immediately. I wrote a list of instructions. Let me see if I can dig it up.
Trust me, tried it. Followed the thread with Sard and yourself . No go on my specific MY10. Car makes far less power that way. Almost 60 less. Ignition timing appeared to stay static past 4000 rpms - like a safe mode.
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      09-24-2010, 11:47 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Have you run diagnostic codes on your car? Are any codes present? It sounds like you have a condition that keeps the car in a form of limp mode. I've seen that limp mode once myself. Constant AFR all the way from bottom to redline. In my case, error codes were present.
Car is fixed now but......

No codes. Nothing - Never. Even from all BMW latest and greatest computers, and separate scantools (BT and more) I own. I used all current BMW tools ISIS and beyond and checked all software versions, reflashed fresh from BMW tools and again separately from my flash tools. Spent many hours, nothing.

AFR was logged via stock pre cat sensors, post cat sensors, tailpipe via LM2 and dyno innovative setup as well. All within similar results.

But for the dyno mode, please know on any of the M3's I've done that are M-DCT I needed to employ that specific driving procedure to get it to throw those faults to allow dyno mode. ABS tricked never worked. The 2011's are even tougher 6spd and M-DCT. Interesting stuff there.
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