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      08-16-2010, 11:27 AM   #45
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Buyer's Remorse is horrible when spending that much on a car. Definitely test drive the hell out of everything you might possibly want before purchasing on something of this magnitude. Drive them all, drive them repeatedly and once you have the one you want be happy. I test drove a new 911 Carrera Turbo convertible and I liked it more than the M3 convertible. I bought the M3 convertible, but I have no regrets. The prices were so completely different that I am happier having the extra cash and the M3 convertible instead of that porsche. Still I wouldn't try to make a point that the M3 vert is faster than the Carrera Turbo vert. Sometimes we just have to be happy with what we can have. Plenty of time left in life for other cars later =) So enjoy your 335 and when you have had that for a couple of years and are in another place in life maybe you will join the M3 club.
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      11-13-2010, 08:28 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sor View Post
This one is for those who don't understand how torque and gearing work, and thus don't understand how to use a high performance vehicle. It's dedicated to the individuals who only look at engine numbers, and don't realize that gearing can amplify or completely nullify the torque you have. To this end, I've put together a graph illustrating the torque applied at the wheels, to compare the 335 and M3, since their gearing is different.

If any of this confuses you, I suggest you read this, it's a decent primer on the basics. Just to quote some key points:





Hopefully this will help people understand why flooring it from idle will certainly make you think the 335 is faster, and also clear up who actually has more torque and for how long (hint, It starts with an M and ends with a 3...subtle, I know). I also hope it illustrates where you should be running your engine to get the best performance out of it.

To any physics buffs out there, yes, this is simplified, but that's the point ;-)

One last thing, I only did the first three gears because I didn't want to clutter the graph too much, basically it's more of the same.

Edit: Adding a better graph per suggestions, laying out the gears/torque by speed to show how the M3 has greater torque through the run.

Is this graph a stock to stock comparison? If so, I'd be interested to see a stock M3 - modified 335 comparison, where the 335 is making ~40-50% more torque than stock up to about 6,500RPM.

Not trying to start a flame war, I'm in the market for a 2011 M3 and would really like to see the difference.
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      11-13-2010, 09:00 PM   #47
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yeah, stock. bmw's published dynos from their marketing info, to be exact. It would have to make a good deal more torque (400-450 lb-ft or so) to make up for those huge deficits in 1st/2nd gear. Not super familiar with all of the N54 tuning, but a piggy back is not going to get you there. At that point you're into, what, somewhere between 15-20 psi, race gas, thousands in turbo upgrades? At which point you're probably only a couple thousand away from an M3, with which you wouldn't be sending your engine to an early grave whenever you get on the gas.

Not dogging on those who like to tune their turbos, that's fun stuff, and my intention wasn't at all to put down the other car, or say that you cant make a car perform better with some mods. The point was that you really need to look at gearing to make any sense at all of torque numbers. When you do that, you can see that the BMW engineers gave the M3 far more torque and a wider torque band than the 335.

Saying a car as 200 lb-ft of torque vs 250 lb-ft means nothing at all without seeing how that torque is being multiplied and put to the wheels. I think people's attention spans are generally far too short to realize this, which is why we get the "M3 only 295 lb-ft, lolwut?" comments. So, just kind of an exercise to illustrate this.
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      11-13-2010, 09:19 PM   #48
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Thanks for the quick response! I've got a 3-4k into my 335 - haven't been to the dyno in a while but others with similar setup are making 420-440 lb-ft at the wheels on a dynojet (You are right about the boost - this is at 17-18psi which is not ideal for turbo longevity)

I test drove a DCT M3 today and the only reason I didn't sign the papers was that I was a little disappointed with power below 4k RPM. It's probably just a matter of changing my driving style for a completely different type of machine. I'm 90% sold on the car, as everything else was a big improvement over my 335, just need to get used to the different way power is delivered.

Thanks again.
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      11-13-2010, 09:26 PM   #49
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$4k isn't as bad as I thought it would be. I had a 335 for the last 3 years, what really got me going about the M3 was that it just feels different, especially the DCT and how it kicks on each gear shift in S5, rev matches, etc. I dont really care what's faster, honestly. Hell, mine's a 'vert!

Last edited by sor; 11-13-2010 at 09:51 PM.
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      11-16-2010, 05:29 PM   #50
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335 and m3 are very different cars . m3 for now is a much more pure driving experience. Who cares About torque?

The next m3 will be turbocharged, so lots of low end torque; it will be laggy like the 335; but it will be a rocket ship.

M3 differs in handling obviously. 335 is a daily driver, not a track ready car. For daily driving that turbo engine is not bad, but it's definitely not a pure driving experience.

M3 is probably the purest with four doors and 6mt.
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      11-16-2010, 06:06 PM   #51
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This is going to be my DD, so need the sedan for practicality.

I'll definitely miss the torque of the 335, but the M3 is a more balanced/capable all around machine. Besides, if I miss the power that bad I can always bolt on a s/c kit ;D
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      11-16-2010, 07:06 PM   #52
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I think you missed the whole point of this thread. Read post #47 by sor again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MERCSUk153 View Post
Sounds great and all that but if you look at the videos all of them have the tuned 335i kicking the stock M3 a$$ and even a modded M3 is just barely pulling on the tuned 335i.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...jb3+vs+m3&aq=0

Here is one from 50-260km/h so M3 shouldn't even drop back according to these numbers you put up.
Do you have a video of the M3 beating the a tuned 335i. Not trying to start a war here just never saw a video where it backed up your info when you say a tuned 335i should still lose to the stock M3 on a straight line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-tsQLbu5_c

Many more videos of tuned 335i pulling away from stock M3 and can't really find any of M3 pulling away from a tuned 335i with the JB3.
The tune not only increases the torque but also allows the 335i to pull much longer so I don't think any of the graphs you have would be a good indication of what a tuned 335i can do as the videos all show a tuned 335i is just faster and that is the facts. You guys have BMW club days so why don't you guys just get together and do some runs and find out than all the numbers crap.
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      11-16-2010, 08:36 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sor View Post
yeah, stock. bmw's published dynos from their marketing info, to be exact. It would have to make a good deal more torque (400-450 lb-ft or so) to make up for those huge deficits in 1st/2nd gear. Not super familiar with all of the N54 tuning, but a piggy back is not going to get you there. At that point you're into, what, somewhere between 15-20 psi, race gas, thousands in turbo upgrades? At which point you're probably only a couple thousand away from an M3, with which you wouldn't be sending your engine to an early grave whenever you get on the gas.

Not dogging on those who like to tune their turbos, that's fun stuff, and my intention wasn't at all to put down the other car, or say that you cant make a car perform better with some mods. The point was that you really need to look at gearing to make any sense at all of torque numbers. When you do that, you can see that the BMW engineers gave the M3 far more torque and a wider torque band than the 335.

Saying a car as 200 lb-ft of torque vs 250 lb-ft means nothing at all without seeing how that torque is being multiplied and put to the wheels. I think people's attention spans are generally far too short to realize this, which is why we get the "M3 only 295 lb-ft, lolwut?" comments. So, just kind of an exercise to illustrate this.
well said, but i think its also important to keep in mind that the gearing is designed for the specific motor. im sure you can change 335 gearing to be more identical to the m3, but i wouldnt match the intent of the car: usable low end power for daily driving.

if you were to use the same m3 motor, but place a 335 tranny on it (or some other variant of the m3 tranny) you would not make the same power, presumably a lot less.

torque is a derivative of horsepower that the motor generates, to supply maximum force(work) to the wheels for the designed output. in the case of the m3, maximize the high revving engine and produce a linear torque band so output can be functional for its intent, driving on a track.

there is no value in a this vs that thread, there are always winners and losers. if thats the comparison, a modded 335, or a modded s5, then compare it to a modded m3 to the same spec - a supercharger or turbo, and the m3 will win, b/c the base displacement is greater, and transfer of power is designed with a larger multiplier. it will suck to drive on the street, though.
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      11-16-2010, 09:33 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MERCSUk153 View Post
This part is lost on most of the M3 fanboys who just don't want to understand this part and why the 335i is a better Daily driver when compared to the M3. While the M3 is a better track machine because of this very same idea because the gearing and high rpm is geared towards the track. The only M3 IMO that would be just as good if not better than the 335i or S4 as a DD is one with a supercharger like someone here mentioned already. This way you get torque for low end DD and also high rpm for track use.
I get that the 335i has more very low end torque but people talk as though having a little less torque under 3,000 RPM somehow negates the M3 as a daily. The M3, in stock form, has tons of torque... maybe not as much in very low RPM ranges as some, but still TONS for daily use. The M3 would have more low end torque than 95% of cars on the road.

Does the 335i have more low, low end torque? Yes. Does that mean it's a better DD? Not necessarily. Why? Because the M3 still has lots of low and torque and does so many other things (braking, handling, etc) better. My M3 is a DD and I have never thought... damn, I really need more torque to get around. No one needs more low end torque than the M3 has for daily duties... it has lots. On the highway, which for many is part of DD routine, the M3s high speed power is better too. In my books, the 335i and the M3 are great DD but the M3 is far more versatile for everything else.
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      11-16-2010, 10:07 PM   #55
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It's no secret, like the above poster says, you need to mash the gas with the NA M engines. The M cars have a very linear throttle mapping which feels lazy to most people at first. Rethink the way you apply the throttle and you'll get all of the torque you paid for.
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      11-16-2010, 11:50 PM   #56
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Wouldn't it be simple to overcome the low-end torque issue on a M3 by keeping the RPM high? With 6MT, I kept the RPM at 5,500+ on a congested freeways so that I can quickly dodge crazy, unaware drivers. Besides, who launches into a drag race with a 911 while at 2,000 RPM?
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      11-17-2010, 12:04 AM   #57
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sticky.
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      11-17-2010, 03:37 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MERCSUk153 View Post
Sounds great and all that but if you look at the videos all of them have the tuned 335i kicking the stock M3 a$$ and even a modded M3 is just barely pulling on the tuned 335i.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...jb3+vs+m3&aq=0

Here is one from 50-260km/h so M3 shouldn't even drop back according to these numbers you put up.
Do you have a video of the M3 beating the a tuned 335i. Not trying to start a war here just never saw a video where it backed up your info when you say a tuned 335i should still lose to the stock M3 on a straight line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-tsQLbu5_c

Many more videos of tuned 335i pulling away from stock M3 and can't really find any of M3 pulling away from a tuned 335i with the JB3.
The tune not only increases the torque but also allows the 335i to pull much longer so I don't think any of the graphs you have would be a good indication of what a tuned 335i can do as the videos all show a tuned 335i is just faster and that is the facts. You guys have BMW club days so why don't you guys just get together and do some runs and find out than all the numbers crap.
Youtube videos are not relevant at all...I prefer to use more professional/consistent data.

Check this link please, where a stock M3 is compared to Alpina B3 S biturbo (394 bhp and 400 lb of torque)..the stock M3 is still faster, both straight line and track

http://www.fastestlaps.com/compariso...rbo_Coupe.html
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      11-17-2010, 07:12 AM   #59
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The M3s max torque is at redline unlike 99% of cars out there. So pull through the entire rpm band to go fast.. End of story
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      11-17-2010, 09:05 AM   #60
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excellent thread!
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      11-17-2010, 09:33 AM   #61
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Like a lot of members on here who have owned both. I think the M3 could do with either a low torque delivery or a larger amount in it's existing range. That's not to say the M3's torque is shabby, just not as easily accessable as the 335i
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      11-17-2010, 10:26 AM   #62
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When I got my 1st 08' M3 coming from an Audi A5 I thought it was going to be a god like experience having a 420hp motor, Smashing me into the seat. It didn't, i was like "the 335i loaner they gave me was faster" WTF? BUT, once you do the break-in and "learn" the engine the car is a blast. i'm on my 2nd M3 now having come back to the family from a S5 because the engine is so good. x-pipes/exhaust really helps with torque BTW. I loved my S5 but it ran out of breath above 6000k or so. and no stick on RS-5.
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      11-17-2010, 10:57 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MERCSUk153 View Post
I am saying his gearing/torque theory is not correct as it doesn't prove how a tuned 335i is faster than a stock M3 even though he said that it should be.
The issue, I think, is that his numbers were comparing stock to stock. His comment on a tuned 335i was his personal speculation as I don't think he did a similar comparison. So, I think the math/theory is correct but it is possible he is underestimating the impact of a tune.
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      11-17-2010, 11:19 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MERCSUk153 View Post
Numbers are great and anyone can give numbers but numbers are not reality when out on the road as the videos show. M3 owner wants to win the race as much as the 335i owner so no bias in videos and there are many more videos on youtube which show the tuned 335i beating the M3. Honestly doesn't bother me which one is faster as I don't own either one but from all the evidence that I have seen these numbers and assumptions by sor don't match up to the real world that is all.
How do I know it was not you in the white M3?? Or someone like you with an interest to prove the M3 is slower than a cheap ass tune 335i/S4?? And then post it all over internet? Moreover, the 335i jumped the start....


In conclusion, the fastestlap site proves that a stock M3 is faster than a tuned 335i. If you want to prove something, please come with some number from a certified source, otherwise just sour grapes for you.
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      11-17-2010, 01:31 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MERCSUk153 View Post
http://www.dragtimes.com/compare2.ph...nName=Compare!

Look at all the times in the mid 11's see any M3's? NO! All tuned 335i. Sour grapes is not me buddy but you. We already have said that sor estimation of tuned 335i was most likely underestimated hence his guess that a tuned 335i torque wouldn't exceed the M3 but as REAL world numbers and videos show it does.
You have just given one set of numbers and you tell me I am flogging videos over the internet. If I was I would have put up multiple videos and put a link on the 335i forum but have I?
Tell my why is it some of you M3 fanboys can't debate a subject without calling other peoples car cheap a$$ or something to that degree? You think you are the only one who could afford the M3? Why don't you just stick to the debate or is it that you need to divert attention to something else so that it won't be so obvious you aren't winning this debate.
If you don't want to listen to me than you should listen to fellow M3 owners who have given reason why Sors assumption may be inacurrate.
I think if you look at the videos I put on you will see that the charts back up his M3 torque theory when comparing stock to stock as the M3 slightly pulls ahead. The other video though showing the tuned 335i pulling on the M3 along with the dragtime numbers should indicate though that Sor assumption is incorrect.
Anyways done with this subject as people with common sense already agree that his assumption might be slightly overestimated. For people like you who refuse to look at the evidence given and want to start calling other peoples cars cheap etc. I am not going to go on as it would be waste of time and result in me getting banned.
The initial thread was stock for stock. Obviously you can tune a 335 to beat an M3, but it's not just a simple flash. Those 120+ MPH 335's probably have every input to and output from the engine touched, and as far as I'm concerned, they are time bombs.

Let's look at stock for stock from your drag times site.

Fastest stock M3 - 12.61@113
Fastest stock 335 - 13.23@104

That's a 0.62 second difference at an average speed of 108.5. At that speed and time differential, the M3 is 99 feet ahead. That's like 6 car lengths. And it's only getting further after that, cuz the 335 starts running out of steam around 120-130 (personal experience), where the M3 just keeps pulling.

But more importantly, why are you still on this forum MERCSuk? It seems like every thread you are involved in ends with about 8 M3 owners belittling you (not a difficult task). You are the classic troll. In fact, trolls probably look down on you, because you are an utter failure at making a valid point. Most trolls get lucky at least occasionally. So you give trolls an even worse name. You should be ashamed of yourself!
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      11-17-2010, 01:38 PM   #66
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I came upon this thread, and learned something interesting. To a degree, I apprecited your input as well, leaving out all the bickering and name calling (not just you but some of us M3 posters as well). While I don't speak for others, I used to drive 335i and loved it. M3 is a different experience and I enjoy it. I just hate seeing posts like this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MERCSUk153 View Post
http://www.dragtimes.com/compare2.ph...nName=Compare!

Look at all the times in the mid 11's see any M3's? NO! All tuned 335i. Sour grapes is not me buddy but you. We already have said that sor estimation of tuned 335i was most likely underestimated hence his guess that a tuned 335i torque wouldn't exceed the M3 but as REAL world numbers and videos show it does.
You have just given one set of numbers and you tell me I am flogging videos over the internet. If I was I would have put up multiple videos and put a link on the 335i forum but have I?
Tell my why is it some of you M3 fanboys can't debate a subject without calling other peoples car cheap a$$ or something to that degree? You think you are the only one who could afford the M3? Why don't you just stick to the debate or is it that you need to divert attention to something else so that it won't be so obvious you aren't winning this debate.
If you don't want to listen to me than you should listen to fellow M3 owners who have given reason why Sors assumption may be inacurrate.
I think if you look at the videos I put on you will see that the charts back up his M3 torque theory when comparing stock to stock as the M3 slightly pulls ahead. The other video though showing the tuned 335i pulling on the M3 along with the dragtime numbers should indicate though that Sor assumption is incorrect.
Anyways done with this subject as people with common sense already agree that his assumption might be slightly overestimated. For people like you who refuse to look at the evidence given and want to start calling other peoples cars cheap etc. I am not going to go on as it would be waste of time and result in me getting banned.
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