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      08-14-2010, 11:24 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deniz1210 View Post
Where did the graph come from? You made an excel sheet with some numbers and made it a graph and say this is the answer to everything? I am not saying I don't agree with you, I am just wondering.

For daily driving, my 335 is far far far (let me write a bold big one as well) FAR better than most cars out there and its more than enough. I can probably use %20 of its potential even in empty highways. There is no discussion about how M3 is great but is the %50 price premium justified for a daily driver with low end torque requirement more than anything?

It's like apple ipad. It's so nice, it's state of the art, but for an average person who reads the news on his iphone for 15 minutes a day and sends an e-mail every other day and checks it once a day, it's a big waste of money. But that still doesn't change the fact that its better than iphone.

This is the problem people make here, no question M3 is better than 335. The real problem with M3 vs 335 should be cost justification, not which one is better. For someone with no financial restrictions, obviously as with ipad, go buy the best one, but most people here are not like that, hence they come here and compare the two cars to give themselves a clear piece of mind about which one to buy or use. Rest is all kid's game seriously, which one is better? which one is faster? which one has more torque? Do you guys seriously think BMW would make a car for %50 more than its lower end version which wouldn't be better? Come on now

Edit : To OP, sorry I thought you were saying M3 was better, given that how we are the minority here, didn't expect someone to come with a 335 graph.
These are from the dynos that BMW supplies with their marketing material for both engines. If anyone has access to legitimate, accurate dynos from the same shop for both vehicles I'd be happy redo it. I'm sure it won't change the results much, since the idea is to show what a difference the gearing makes, and the gear ratios should be pretty accurate. I like Radiation Joe's graphs better, though they require a bit more intelligence and imagination to compare and see what's going on. It would be cool to take the manual graphs for each car, lay them onto a single graph, and then just show the parts where you're actually in gear, i.e. a downward stairstep pattern.

Deniz: First off, the graphs aren't the answer to everything, they're just an answer to why the BMW engineers are so awesome at what they do. Hopefully you read and understood the link.

Sure, the 335 is a good value. I don't think many E9x owners will disagree with that. The point of this thread is for people who can't wrap their heads around why the BMW engineers "only gave the M3 295 ft-lb torque, I have so much more in my 335 and over a wider range". It's because they understand far more about this than we do, they know that performance is far from a single engine stat, it's matching the engine to a transmission, along with 100 other things. It's only seeing graphs like these that you begin to see the machine as a whole and can appreciate why they did what they did.

You're also harping on the "50%" a lot. It's not that cut and dry. Some people have loaded 3's and are happy to step up into an M3 for just a few thousand more. Others have spend $50k+ on their stock 335 and after just a couple mods they're within M3 cost. Also, that few extra grand doesn't just buy you an extra half second to 60. You look at every sportscar, and the prices increase dramatically while the straight line performance gains diminish. So there must be something besides acceleration making people pay more for those cars... I wonder what it might be :-)

My advice to you is to stop trying to understand why other people don't come to the same conclusion as you (we all do this, but you seem pretty vocal about it). You seem to feel that the 335 should be "good enough" for anyone, and that's fine, just don't sweat it when others feel differently.
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      08-14-2010, 12:34 PM   #24
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Here's a second graph, showing torque at speed as you shift through gears. You can see that as long as you launch the M3 above 2500RPM (assuming you can ), you get more torque the whole time you row through. This also illustrates that particularly between 25-75mph the torque difference is massive.

I love how the 335 is done with 5th before the M3 is done with 4th
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Last edited by sor; 08-14-2010 at 01:53 PM.
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      08-14-2010, 03:24 PM   #25
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Nice.
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      08-14-2010, 03:32 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sor View Post
You look at every sportscar, and the prices increase dramatically while the straight line performance gains diminish. So there must be something besides acceleration making people pay more for those cars... I wonder what it might be :-)

My advice to you is to stop trying to understand why other people don't come to the same conclusion as you (we all do this, but you seem pretty vocal about it). You seem to feel that the 335 should be "good enough" for anyone, and that's fine, just don't sweat it when others feel differently.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by 301Bimmer9 View Post
I get what you're saying, paying a premium on a similar product can be viewed as a "waste" of money. We could all drive a Civic for 10 years and invest more money etc. but paying for a BMW or any performance car is worth it if you appreciate it (as I am sure you know).

You can apply it to anything such as clothing brands, electronics, etc. and people will pay more for the "premium" or better product. People like my dad who makes good money is happy with a Siverado and walmart t-shirts. This is why the 335 vs. M3 debate will never be over. A 335 is more than enough car for a lot of people and the M3 is viewed as a steal for the price by others. If I was happy with a 335 or better yet a Kia or Hyundai I would have a lot more money in the bank each month

...But I'm content being a Polo, Brooks Brothers, M3 driving douche because I work hard and I can do as I please. Seriously though, the debate will never end but your making the right move getting the M3
Best post I've seen in awhile on many levels. I especially like the section I've added bold to.

RJ, thanks for posting those charts. I was racking my brain last night thinking someone (or two) had done these at some point--aren't these ones you did quite awhile back?

Man, it's nice to see some intelligent discussion and debate again on this board! Keep it coming guys! SOR, thanks for kicking this off. I had my doubts, but this is a good discussion and that's what keeps me coming here. So thanks buddy!

Last edited by Finnegan; 08-14-2010 at 03:37 PM.
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      08-14-2010, 04:22 PM   #27
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I think this thread might be worth a stickey! That second graph says it all thanks OP!
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      08-14-2010, 04:22 PM   #28
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If a 335 owner shifts at 2500 RPM or below, they wil have more torque always. So if you don't like to rev your engine past 2500 RPM, the 335 is a torque monster. I am going to trade my M3 in for a 335.
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      08-14-2010, 04:58 PM   #29
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no your not
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      08-14-2010, 05:24 PM   #30
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I tap my 335 and im gone, I have to ring the m3's neck to move and go above 5k rpm
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      08-14-2010, 05:41 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by 335rocket View Post
no your not
You got me I am keeping my M3 as long as I can. Even if the numbers showed the 335 was faster, I love the M3 and the package as a whole.
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      08-14-2010, 07:21 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sor View Post
Here's a second graph, showing torque at speed as you shift through gears. You can see that as long as you launch the M3 above 2500RPM (assuming you can ), you get more torque the whole time you row through. This also illustrates that particularly between 25-75mph the torque difference is massive.

I love how the 335 is done with 5th before the M3 is done with 4th
Cool graph. Thanks for sharing.
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      08-14-2010, 08:09 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That Nice Guy Beck! View Post
I tap my 335 and im gone, I have to ring the m3's neck to move and go above 5k rpm
What part of the data above is confusing to you? If you tap the gas in the M3 above 2,500 RPM then you're gone too. The 335 is great from 1,500 to 3,500 RPM but whether it is to 60 mph or 100 mph, an M3 it is not.

Maybe something is wrong with your M because you seem to be one of the only 335 owners (current or past) who now have an M3 and consider the 335 to be the faster car. I would just trade the E93 for E90/92 M3 and be done with it.
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      08-14-2010, 08:21 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sor View Post
This one is for those who don't understand how torque and gearing work, and thus don't understand how to use a high performance vehicle. It's dedicated to the individuals who only look at engine numbers, and don't realize that gearing can amplify or completely nullify the torque you have. To this end, I've put together a graph illustrating the torque applied at the wheels, to compare the 335 and M3, since their gearing is different.

If any of this confuses you, I suggest you read this, it's a decent primer on the basics. Just to quote some key points:

Hopefully this will help people understand why flooring it from idle will certainly make you think the 335 is faster, and also clear up who actually has more torque and for how long (hint, It starts with an M and ends with a 3...subtle, I know). I also hope it illustrates where you should be running your engine to get the best performance out of it.

To any physics buffs out there, yes, this is simplified, but that's the point ;-)

One last thing, I only did the first three gears because I didn't want to clutter the graph too much, basically it's more of the same.

Edit: Adding a better graph per suggestions, laying out the gears/torque by speed to show how the M3 has greater torque through the run.
Just a nit or two...

Your graph shows a sizable advantage for the 335 at low rpm and low speed. I assume the graph is correct, but out on the mean streets, that advantage is simply unavailable to the driver.

Reason: You're showing the 335 torque curve as displayed by a dyno, which assumes the engine is under full load and full boost is available. This is not the case if you punch it in first gear from idle or just above idle. In fact, you're probably not making the full torque number until you're past 3000 rpm or so - maybe a second and a half. So under those conditions the M3 will pull about as hard or even harder than the 335.

The reason the 335 feels stronger at low revs in everyday driving is that you can "ride the boost" coming off a 90-degree corner at low rpm in, say, third gear at half throttle. The boost comes up, and you get a torque shot not far off what you'd get at full throttle. Result? Strong acceleration with low noise levels. It feels effortless. The m3 will tend to give you half power at half throttle, so it feels a bit sluggish by comparison - unless you punch it.

At full throttle (assuming infinite traction), the M3 will be faster to and at every speed than the stick 335.

A caveat is that an automatic 335 can preload from a dead stop, and again assuming infinite traction, will blow away the M3 in those first couple of critical car lengths.
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      08-14-2010, 09:18 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
A caveat is that an automatic 335 can preload from a dead stop, and again assuming infinite traction, will blow away the M3 in those first couple of critical car lengths.
You can always spool up the M3 to 5k rpm using launch control.
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      08-14-2010, 11:08 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That Nice Guy Beck! View Post
I tap my 335 and im gone, I have to ring the m3's neck to move and go above 5k rpm
If by 'ring neck', you mean 'I have to remember to shift', then I understand. Welcome to the world of high performance vehicles.

One thing that became apparent to me during this exercise is that while people keep saying 'get the M3 above 5k rpm', you really only need to get it to 2.5k-3k RPM to get it into it's sweet spot. Which makes 335'ers complaining about sluggishness appear EXTRA lazy.
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      08-14-2010, 11:11 PM   #37
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OK im sorry i take it back dont hit me
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      08-14-2010, 11:27 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That Nice Guy Beck! View Post
OK im sorry i take it back dont hit me
unfortunately this guy will never understand the difference between a high performance engine and a "get me from a to b engine"

its all good man we get it now can you stop your rant?


oh by the way I was driving the M today and was at a light, didnt launch but got on it around 2,000-2,500 and just gunned threw the gears.... and then i got a reckless driving ticket
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      08-15-2010, 02:07 AM   #39
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yay someone finally gets the actualy tq to the wheels using gearing! also what you should also add are acceleration values using typical mass values for both 335 and m3 since
they don't weigh the same. then you can see exactly when and where the m3 starts to pull. I remember doing these all over excel and also including tuned 335 and 335d data gathered from dyno charts . fun stuff
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      08-15-2010, 09:15 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
You can always spool up the M3 to 5k rpm using launch control.
That battle would be fun to watch. Torque multiplication against rpm. I have no idea who would have the advantage.
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      08-15-2010, 09:48 AM   #41
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Great post. Maybe this should be posted in the general e9x section as well. This would help a lot of 335 drivers understand the actual torque differences.
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      08-15-2010, 11:25 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erio View Post
Great post. Maybe this should be posted in the general e9x section as well. This would help a lot of 335 drivers understand the actual torque differences.
Agreed. Also, nobody is claiming that the 335 is not a great car and especially at its price point. In fact, it may be more than enough for many people. The point is that despite being a great car, it is not in any way, shape, form or any other noun you want to use better than a M3. One could argue that a 550I is as good a car as a M3 (although it is an apples to oranges comparison), but really they are just so different that they are each great in their own right for different reasons. A 335I however is on the same base as the M3 and is simply the little brother of the M3. This is almost like a 328 owner arguing that is is better than the 335 because it is better for the price. These graphs show that torque, when read properly is not great overall on the 335 and it is simply a misinterpretation of the numbers by 335 owners. Maybe this will shed enough light on this debate to conclusively show that mistake and but this to bed, but I doubt it.
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      08-15-2010, 11:57 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sor View Post
You're also harping on the "50%" a lot. It's not that cut and dry. Some people have loaded 3's and are happy to step up into an M3 for just a few thousand more. Others have spend $50k+ on their stock 335 and after just a couple mods they're within M3 cost. Also, that few extra grand doesn't just buy you an extra half second to 60. You look at every sportscar, and the prices increase dramatically while the straight line performance gains diminish. So there must be something besides acceleration making people pay more for those cars... I wonder what it might be :-)

My advice to you is to stop trying to understand why other people don't come to the same conclusion as you (we all do this, but you seem pretty vocal about it). You seem to feel that the 335 should be "good enough" for anyone, and that's fine, just don't sweat it when others feel differently.
+1

Deniz1210 basically has buyer's remorse since he brought the 335 over the M3 and basically every post he has wrote has been therapy to help him feel better with the purchase of the 335. Hence he keeps on bringing the same arguments of why his 335 is 'good enough' for everyone, and the M3 is not worth the price increase over the 335. Its like a broken record.
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      08-16-2010, 07:27 AM   #44
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