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      08-14-2010, 01:34 AM   #1
sor
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putting torque to rest

This one is for those who don't understand how torque and gearing work, and thus don't understand how to use a high performance vehicle. It's dedicated to the individuals who only look at engine numbers, and don't realize that gearing can amplify or completely nullify the torque you have. To this end, I've put together a graph illustrating the torque applied at the wheels, to compare the 335 and M3, since their gearing is different.

If any of this confuses you, I suggest you read this, it's a decent primer on the basics. Just to quote some key points:

Quote:
How important is gearing? Gearing nearly makes torque obsolete. Yes, it's that important. In a perfect environment with no limiting factors such as size and weight, the actual peak torque output of an engine would be totally meaningless because of gearing.

How's that possible? It's simple. Gearing multiplies peak torque to the wheels to any amount desired. Increasing the ratio increases torque.
Quote:
Now when we're talking about automobiles, the amount of horsepower or torque generated at the flywheel is not very useful when determining acceleration. What is useful, however, is horsepower and torque "at the wheels".
Hopefully this will help people understand why flooring it from idle will certainly make you think the 335 is faster, and also clear up who actually has more torque and for how long (hint, It starts with an M and ends with a 3...subtle, I know). I also hope it illustrates where you should be running your engine to get the best performance out of it.

To any physics buffs out there, yes, this is simplified, but that's the point ;-)

One last thing, I only did the first three gears because I didn't want to clutter the graph too much, basically it's more of the same.

Edit: Adding a better graph per suggestions, laying out the gears/torque by speed to show how the M3 has greater torque through the run.
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Last edited by sor; 08-14-2010 at 02:46 PM.
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      08-14-2010, 02:03 AM   #2
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This is good, but I have doubts it will ever put this to rest. Many have tried over the past two years by making the same point. The same folks (or type of folks) continue to miss the point and will continue to rave about how the 335 "is faster" and has more "low end torque".

The turnover rate on the board actually seems pretty high, so I may be wrong in with my somewhat jaded thinking. So, you may reach a few folks, and if you do then your effort was well worth it! So kudos for taking the time and effort to illuminate this subject!
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      08-14-2010, 02:20 AM   #3
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Would it be possible to graph speed vs. torque in those gears? I'm curious to see how much (little??) time would be spent in the area where the 335 has it's advantage. Only going to 2500 RPM it can't be much time at all and only in first gear unless you're short-shifting the piss out of the car.

Excellent post!
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      08-14-2010, 02:47 AM   #4
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An even better graph would be to have MPH across the bottom and to map out each gear sequentially. This would really show how the M3 can hold onto a gear, and deliver a much larger ammount of torque to the ground than a 335i.

Also, from all the dyno charts I've seen, the 335i dosen't have a completely flat torque curve below 2k rpms like you show. People might get the wrong idea.
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      08-14-2010, 03:08 AM   #5
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Finally an N54 owner who knows what he's talking about
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      08-14-2010, 03:12 AM   #6
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But...but...my 135i has low end torque and is light..its a torque machine...just kidding. Cant wait to take delivery of my M3!!
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      08-14-2010, 03:14 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawshank772 View Post
But...but...my 135i has low and torque and is light..its a torque machine...just kidding. Cant wait to take delivery of my M3!!
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      08-14-2010, 07:38 AM   #8
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Where did the graph come from? You made an excel sheet with some numbers and made it a graph and say this is the answer to everything? I am not saying I don't agree with you, I am just wondering.

For daily driving, my 335 is far far far (let me write a bold big one as well) FAR better than most cars out there and its more than enough. I can probably use %20 of its potential even in empty highways. There is no discussion about how M3 is great but is the %50 price premium justified for a daily driver with low end torque requirement more than anything?

It's like apple ipad. It's so nice, it's state of the art, but for an average person who reads the news on his iphone for 15 minutes a day and sends an e-mail every other day and checks it once a day, it's a big waste of money. But that still doesn't change the fact that its better than iphone.

This is the problem people make here, no question M3 is better than 335. The real problem with M3 vs 335 should be cost justification, not which one is better. For someone with no financial restrictions, obviously as with ipad, go buy the best one, but most people here are not like that, hence they come here and compare the two cars to give themselves a clear piece of mind about which one to buy or use. Rest is all kid's game seriously, which one is better? which one is faster? which one has more torque? Do you guys seriously think BMW would make a car for %50 more than its lower end version which wouldn't be better? Come on now

Edit : To OP, sorry I thought you were saying M3 was better, given that how we are the minority here, didn't expect someone to come with a 335 graph.
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      08-14-2010, 07:53 AM   #9
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^--- Just cause you can't afford to play you don't have to get all upset.
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      08-14-2010, 07:54 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
^--- Just cause you can't afford to play you don't have to get all upset.
I actually can, I am going to order the '12 M3 sedan, I just made a mistake by getting the 335. I will keep the 335 for my wife and the get the M3 next year.
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      08-14-2010, 08:22 AM   #11
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I have owned both and they are great cars. The perfect example of siblings...same basic DNA with different personalies, strengths and weaknesses.
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      08-14-2010, 09:59 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deniz1210 View Post
For daily driving, my 335 is far far far (let me write a bold big one as well) FAR better than most cars out there and its more than enough. I can probably use %20 of its potential even in empty highways. There is no discussion about how M3 is great but is the %50 price premium justified for a daily driver with low end torque requirement more than anything?
^ I think you answered your own question with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deniz1210 View Post
I actually can, I am going to order the '12 M3 sedan, I just made a mistake by getting the 335. I will keep the 335 for my wife and the get the M3 next year.
but wait... Isnt it FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR better than most? better yet, more than enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deniz1210 View Post

It's like apple ipad. It's so nice, it's state of the art, but for an average person who reads the news on his iphone for 15 minutes a day and sends an e-mail every other day and checks it once a day, it's a big waste of money. But that still doesn't change the fact that its better than iphone.
So It's just a big waste of money? and you'll just keep the mistake (for your wife) that's far better than most and waste your money on the torqueless M3?




To the OP - Thank you for taking the time, but i agree with Finnegan's sentiments though
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      08-14-2010, 10:05 AM   #13
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Of course it's waste of money, but so is iphone, and a polo t-shirt for $65 or a brooks brothers shirt for $120, but so is a lot of things in life, yet we still do them, the question is when you do it and how you do it. I am being objective about this, the fact that I will buy an M3 and how I still think this way should be a proof to that. M3 is a great car, but its a car, that's all.
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      08-14-2010, 10:15 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
An even better graph would be to have MPH across the bottom and to map out each gear sequentially. This would really show how the M3 can hold onto a gear, and deliver a much larger ammount of torque to the ground than a 335i.

Also, from all the dyno charts I've seen, the 335i dosen't have a completely flat torque curve below 2k rpms like you show. People might get the wrong idea.
You mean like these? The torque curves I used weren't exact, but close enough.





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      08-14-2010, 10:24 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deniz1210 View Post
Of course it's waste of money, but so is iphone, and a polo t-shirt for $65 or a brooks brothers shirt for $120, but so is a lot of things in life, yet we still do them, the question is when you do it and how you do it. I am being objective about this, the fact that I will buy an M3 and how I still think this way should be a proof to that. M3 is a great car, but its a car, that's all.
I disagree with such a blanket statement. A waste of money is defined by the value of the individual item to the person. If a person values the M3, polo shirt, iphone, etc.. enough then it is most certainly not a waste of money to that individual. Now if you only value the M3 at 50k and spend 60k then you wasted money. However, I am sure almost everyone on here values their M3 as much or if not more than what they paid for it and, therefore, do not feel that it is a waste of money, but rather a great investment in their entertainment for daily driving, tracking and pure smile factor at hearing that engine roar.

If you only value a car to get from point A to point B in a reasonable amount of time and thats it then buy a used civic or something because anything else would be a waste of money for that purpose. Many of us value getting from point A to point B in style, with speed, with enjoyment of driving, with a smile on our faces and listening to the mechanical symphony that is the M3 V8 and for that the M3 is most certainly worth the money.
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      08-14-2010, 10:24 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deniz1210 View Post
Of course it's waste of money, but so is iphone, and a polo t-shirt for $65 or a brooks brothers shirt for $120, but so is a lot of things in life, yet we still do them, the question is when you do it and how you do it. I am being objective about this, the fact that I will buy an M3 and how I still think this way should be a proof to that. M3 is a great car, but its a car, that's all.
I get what you're saying, paying a premium on a similar product can be viewed as a "waste" of money. We could all drive a Civic for 10 years and invest more money etc. but paying for a BMW or any performance car is worth it if you appreciate it (as I am sure you know).

You can apply it to anything such as clothing brands, electronics, etc. and people will pay more for the "premium" or better product. People like my dad who makes good money is happy with a Siverado and walmart t-shirts. This is why the 335 vs. M3 debate will never be over. A 335 is more than enough car for a lot of people and the M3 is viewed as a steal for the price by others. If I was happy with a 335 or better yet a Kia or Hyundai I would have a lot more money in the bank each month

...But I'm content being a Polo, Brooks Brothers, M3 driving douche because I work hard and I can do as I please. Seriously though, the debate will never end but your making the right move getting the M3
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      08-14-2010, 10:25 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 301Bimmer9 View Post
I get what you're saying, paying a premium on a similar product can be viewed as a "waste" of money. We could all drive a Civic for 10 years and invest more money etc. but paying for a BMW or any performance car is worth it if you appreciate it (as I am sure you know).

You can apply it to anything such as clothing brands, electronics, etc. and people will pay more for the "premium" or better product. People like my dad who makes good money is happy with a Siverado and walmart t-shirts. This is why the 335 vs. M3 debate will never be over. A 335 is more than enough car for a lot of people and the M3 is viewed as a steal for the price by others. If I was happy with a 335 or better yet a Kia or Hyundai I would have a lot more money in the bank each month

...But I'm content being a Polo, Brooks Brothers, M3 driving douche because I work hard and I can do as I please. Seriously though, the debate will never end but your making the right move getting the M3
LOL you were thinking the same thing just as I was posting, nice one, +1
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      08-14-2010, 10:26 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWMFAN27 View Post
I disagree with such a blanket statement. A waste of money is defined by the value of the individual item to the person. If a person values the M3, polo shirt, iphone, etc.. enough then it is most certainly not a waste of money to that individual. Now if you only value the M3 at 50k and spend 60k then you wasted money. However, I am sure almost everyone on here values their M3 as much or if not more than what they paid for it and, therefore, do not feel that it is a waste of money, but rather a great investment in their entertainment for daily driving, tracking and pure smile factor at hearing that engine roar.

If you only value a car to get from point A to point B in a reasonable amount of time and thats it then buy a used civic or something because anything else would be a waste of money for that purpose. Many of us value getting from point A to point B in style, with speed, with enjoyment of driving, with a smile on our faces and listening to the mechanical symphony that is the M3 V8 and for that the M3 is most certainly worth the money.
+1 posted at the same time and said the same thing
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      08-14-2010, 10:28 AM   #19
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^^^^^ Scary
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      08-14-2010, 10:32 AM   #20
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^^^^^ Scary
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      08-14-2010, 10:38 AM   #21
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Exactly!!!!!!!!! Anyone that is willing to look at these graphs can easily see the M3 can put far more torque to the ground than a 335 at any given speed. In essence, the M3 is the "torque monster"

It's a shame that a lot of people misunderstand the relationship between horsepower, torque and how gearing plays into the equation.
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      08-14-2010, 11:02 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deniz1210 View Post
I actually can, I am going to order the '12 M3 sedan, I just made a mistake by getting the 335. I will keep the 335 for my wife and the get the M3 next year.
This is exactly the same mistake I made and the exact same remedy. I guess you really can't call it a mistake as both cars are great, but I smile every time I get into the M. That is the biggest difference for me. A big grin from ear to ear.
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