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      08-18-2010, 11:43 AM   #67
Dave07997S
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Whatever it is, the effect is that the car will not rev above a certain RPM. The details of how it operates are secondary.

Tuning in great, but we are discussing max RPM for a factory stock car.

BTW, you never answered my questions from earlier? Are you really spinning the stock GT bottom end to 8000 RPM?
Evolution has cars in the 10s right now for the 2011 GT, but they are squeezing them. If they are going past the rev limiter via tuning on the stock bottom end and the cast pistons that would be ok for a drag car that is being torn down all the time, but to do this in a car that is to be a DD..well its a recipe for disaster.

Love this video..

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      08-18-2010, 12:40 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
Evolution has cars in the 10s right now for the 2011 GT, but they are squeezing them. If they are going past the rev limiter via tuning on the stock bottom end and the cast pistons that would be ok for a drag car that is being torn down all the time, but to do this in a car that is to be a DD..well its a recipe for disaster.
Have to agree. I would want the Boss forged setup for sure, or an aftermarket setup. The Boss engine should provide a much better base for modding than the GT (including increasing the rev limit).
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      08-18-2010, 12:41 PM   #69
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If you are going to be an armchair critic at least learn your facts!
And who is not being an armchair praiser or critic at this point before the car has been released?

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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
A limited slip is standard with a torsen optional on the base Boss and standard on the LS.Recaro's will be a free standing option on the base car standard on a LS.
I misread the article indeed LS diff std., Torsen LS optional. Not sure that approach makes sense for a "track ready special" (your phrase). Perhaps the adjutable suspension should be an option as well?

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Who wants an automatic manual for a track car.Not me for sure after watching the experiances of M-DCT owners.
Many who drive their DCTs aggressivel or track them appreciate the DCT for its performance and versatility. I do both. Sure their have been some growing pains and bugs but even with those the DCT is rated by most as a solid 9 or even 9.5/10.

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Most of us who track our M3's run a wider tire setup than the Boss is using.
My point was that the wider rubber will be a significant contributor to the cars lap times, that's it.

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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Heavier than what?
Than the E92 M3.

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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Its a track car not a poser car that is not comprimised for a nice street ride.
You meant to leave out the "not" above. Anyway I disagree. It is a production street car and like the majority of other track oriented production street cars most will never see a track.

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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
I love my M3 for normal use and also works OK on the track,not great but the Boss LS is game changer in the world of track ready specials that are affordable.
I would argue it is not a game changer at all and well optioned it does not appear that it will be particularly affordable either. Of course that term is highly subjective but it will probably be well into the $40k range.
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      08-18-2010, 01:15 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
And who is not being an armchair praiser or critic at this point before the car has been released?



I misread the article indeed LS diff std., Torsen LS optional. Not sure that approach makes sense for a "track ready special" (your phrase). Perhaps the adjutable suspension should be an option as well?



Many who drive their DCTs aggressivel or track them appreciate the DCT for its performance and versatility. I do both. Sure their have been some growing pains and bugs but even with those the DCT is rated by most as a solid 9 or even 9.5/10.



My point was that the wider rubber will be a significant contributor to the cars lap times, that's it.



Than the E92 M3.



You meant to leave out the "not" above. Anyway I disagree. It is a production street car and like the majority of other track oriented production street cars most will never see a track.



I would argue it is not a game changer at all and well optioned it does not appear that it will be particularly affordable either. Of course that term is highly subjective but it will probably be well into the $40k range.
I am being an armchair critic but at least I admit to that but I do have a very good insight on this car by the people that were involved in the development of the Boss.

An M3 coupe is 220 lbs heavier than a Mustang GT according to the Canadian industry database that I use.The Boss LS will be lighter because of the equipment deletions.

Most of the LS's will be used for the track according to the Ford people and that is the car that I am refering to.

An LS in Canada will probally be $55000 which is about $32000 less than a M3 coupe with the comp pck and a third of the cost of a GT3 which would be $165000 cdn with all these equipped the way that I would buy them.That is pretty game changing IMO.

Mine will be used as a track day playtoy,not as an M3 replacement so my goals are probally a lot different than other people on here.The Mustang will never compete in day to day useability of the M3 nor do I expect it to.
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      08-18-2010, 04:38 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
I am being an armchair critic but at least I admit to that but I do have a very good insight on this car by the people that were involved in the development of the Boss.

An M3 coupe is 220 lbs heavier than a Mustang GT according to the Canadian industry database that I use.The Boss LS will be lighter because of the equipment deletions.

Most of the LS's will be used for the track according to the Ford people and that is the car that I am refering to.

An LS in Canada will probally be $55000 which is about $32000 less than a M3 coupe with the comp pck and a third of the cost of a GT3 which would be $165000 cdn with all these equipped the way that I would buy them.That is pretty game changing IMO.

Mine will be used as a track day playtoy,not as an M3 replacement so my goals are probally a lot different than other people on here.The Mustang will never compete in day to day useability of the M3 nor do I expect it to.
Hmmm, I never proposed doing anything outside of my armchair as well.

A stripper M3 ZCP is $58k (less all taxes, fees, etc.) here in the US. Do you want to speculate more about the price of either the LS or non LS model in USD? I dug around a bit but couldn't find anything narrow nor concrete.

I based my guess on the weight of the Boss from the GT500 which is not very light. Perhaps the LS will be considerably lighter than both the GT500 and the M3.

Are their any firm curb weight figures for either variant yet?

I totally agree on the "best use" of this car vs. the M3. Mustang = track toy only whereas M3 is great all arounder and good for ocassional track days.
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      08-18-2010, 04:49 PM   #72
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Hmmm, I never proposed doing anything outside of my armchair as well.

A stripper M3 ZCP is $58k (less all taxes, fees, etc.) here in the US. Do you want to speculate more about the price of either the LS or non LS model in USD? I dug around a bit but couldn't find anything narrow nor concrete.

I based my guess on the weight of the Boss from the GT500 which is not very light. Perhaps the LS will be considerably lighter than both the GT500 and the M3.

Are their any firm curb weight figures for either variant yet?

I totally agree on the "best use" of this car vs. the M3. Mustang = track toy only whereas M3 is great all arounder and good for ocassional track days.
Wow we agree on somethingFord published some #'s but I am not sure what they are based on as they seem a lot heavier than I was told by a very knowlegable person on this car.By next spring when the car arrives we will know a lot more for sure.
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      08-18-2010, 04:52 PM   #73
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2012 FORD MUSTANG BOSS 302
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
DRIVETRAIN
Layout Front engine / Rear-wheel drive
TRANSMISSION
Standard Six-speed manual
Gear ratios
1st 3.66
2nd 2.43
3rd 1.69
4th 1.32
5th 1.00
6th 0.65
Final drive 3.73:1
SUSPENSION
Front Independent MacPherson strut with Reverse-L lower control arm, 34.6 mm tubular stabilizer
bar, strut tower brace, adjustable strut damping
Rear 3-link solid axle with limited-slip differential, coil springs,
Panhard bar, 25.0 mm stabilizer bar and adjustable shock damping
BODY
Construction: Unitized welded steel body, aluminum hood
Final assembly location: Flat Rock, Mich.
POWERTRAIN AND CHASSIS
ENGINE
Type High-performance 5.0L 4V Ti-VCT V8
Manufacturing location Essex Engine, Windsor, Ontario
Configuration Aluminum block and heads
Intake manifold Composite shell-welded with runner pack
Exhaust manifold Stainless steel tubular headers
Redline 7,500 rpm (est.)
Valvetrain DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder, variable intake, variable camshaft timing
Valve diameter/lift (mm) Intake 37/12, Exhaust 31/11
Ti-VCT operating range 50 degrees for both intake and exhaust
Pistons Cast aluminum
Connecting rods Forged steel
Ignition High-energy coil-on-plug
Bore x stroke 3.63 x 3.65 in/92.2 x 92.7 mm
Displacement 302 cu. in./4,951 cc
Compression ratio 11.0:1 (est.)
Engine control system PCM
Horsepower 440 (est.)
Horsepower per liter 88
Torque 380 lb.-ft. (est.)
Recommended fuel 91 octane
Fuel capacity 16 gallons
Fuel delivery Sequential mechanical returnless
Oil capacity Eight quarts with filter (10,000-mile service interval)
2012 FORD MUSTANG BOSS 302
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
STEERING
Type Rack-and-pinion with electric power-assisted steering (EPAS)
Ratio 15.9:1
Turning circle curb-to-curb 39.4 ft. (est.)
BRAKES
Type Four-wheel power disc brakes with 4-sensor, 4-channel anti-lock braking system (ABS),
low expansion brake hoses
Front 355 mm (14-in) x 36 mm vented discs, four-piston Brembo 43 mm floating aluminum
calipers
Rear 300 mm (11.8-in) x 19 mm vented discs, single-piston 43 mm floating iron calipers
TIRE AND WHEELS (type, size)
Standard 255/40ZR-19 Pirelli PZero, 285/35ZR-19 Pirelli PZero
19 x 9-in., 19 x 9.5-in. wide spoke painted aluminum wheels
DIMENSIONS (inches unless otherwise noted)
EXTERIOR
Wheelbase 107.1
Overall length 188.1
Overall width 73.9
Overall height 55.1
Track, front/rear 61.9/62.5
INTERIOR
Seating capacity 4
Front headroom 38.5
Front legroom 42.4
Front shoulder room 55.3
Front hip room 53.4
Rear headroom 34.7
Rear legroom 29.8
Rear shoulder room 51.6
Rear hip room 46.8
WEIGHTS AND CAPACITIES
SAE passenger volume 83.3 cu. ft.
Cargo volume 13.4 cu. ft.
Maximum towing capacity Not available
FUEL ECONOMY (city/highway)
Six-speed manual 17/26 mpg
BASE CURB WEIGHT (pounds)
Manual transmission 3,631 (est.)
Weight distribution (f/r) 55/45 (est.)
Specifications subject to change without prior notification
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      08-18-2010, 07:51 PM   #74
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2012 FORD MUSTANG BOSS 302 LAGUNA SECA
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
DRIVETRAIN
Layout Front engine / Rear-wheel drive
TRANSMISSION
Standard Six-speed manual
Gear ratios
1st 3.66
2nd 2.43
3rd 1.69
4th 1.32
5th 1.00
6th 0.65
Final drive 3.73:1
BODY
Construction: Unitized welded steel body, aluminum hood
Final assembly location: Flat Rock, Mich.
POWERTRAIN AND CHASSIS
ENGINE
Type High-performance 5.0L 4V Ti-VCT V8
Manufacturing location Essex Engine, Windsor, Ontario
Configuration Aluminum block and heads
Intake manifold Composite shell-welded with runner pack
Exhaust manifold Stainless steel tubular headers
Redline 7,500 rpm (est.)
Valvetrain DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder, variable intake, variable camshaft timing
Valve diameter/lift (mm) Intake 37/12, exhaust 31/11
Ti-VCT operating range 50 degrees for both intake and exhaust
Pistons Cast aluminum
Connecting rods Forged steel
Ignition High-energy coil-on-plug
Bore x stroke 3.63 x 3.65 in/92.2 x 92.7 mm
Displacement 302 cu. in./4,951 cc
Compression ratio 11.0:1 (est.)
Engine control system PCM
Horsepower 440 (est.)
Horsepower per liter 88
Torque 380 lb.-ft. (est.)
Recommended fuel 91 octane
Fuel capacity 16 gallons
Fuel delivery Sequential mechanical returnless
Oil capacity Eight quarts with filter (10,000-mile service interval)
2012 FORD MUSTANG BOSS 302 LAGUNA SECA
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
SUSPENSION
Front Independent MacPherson strut with Reverse-L lower control arm, 34.6 mm tubular
stabilizer bar, strut tower brace, adjustable strut damping
Rear 3-link solid axle with Torsen limited-slip differential, coil springs,
Panhard bar, 26.0 mm stabilizer bar, body X-brace and adjustable shock damping
STEERING
Type Rack-and-pinion with electric power-assisted steering (EPAS)
Ratio 15.9:1
Turning circle curb-to-curb 39.4 ft. (est.)
BRAKES
Type Four-wheel power disc brakes with 4-sensor,
4-channel anti-lock braking system (ABS), low expansion brake hoses
Front 355 mm (14 in) x 36 mm vented discs,
Four-piston Brembo 43 mm floating aluminum calipers
Rear 300 mm (11.8 in) x 19 mm vented discs,
single-piston 43 mm floating iron calipers
TIRE AND WHEELS (type, size)
Standard 255/40ZR-19 Pirelli Corsa, 285/35ZR-19 Pirelli Corsa
19 x 9-in., 19 x 10-in. machined lightweight aluminum wheels
DIMENSIONS (inches unless otherwise noted)
EXTERIOR
Wheelbase 107.1
Overall length 188.1
Overall width 73.9
Overall height 55.1
Track, front/rear 61.9/62.5
INTERIOR
Seating capacity 2
Front headroom 38.5
Front legroom 42.4
Front shoulder room 55.3
Front hip room 53.4
WEIGHTS AND CAPACITIES
SAE passenger volume 52.4 cu. ft.
Cargo volume 13.4 cu. ft.
Maximum towing capacity Not available
FUEL ECONOMY (city/highway)
Six-speed manual 17/26 mpg
BASE CURB WEIGHT (pounds)
Manual transmission 3,636 (est.)
Weight distribution (f/r) 55/45 (est.)
Specifications subject to change without prior notification
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      08-19-2010, 02:10 AM   #75
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A beautiful black on black Boss.


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      08-19-2010, 06:36 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
If you are going to be an armchair critic at least learn your facts!

A limited slip is standard with a torsen optional on the base Boss and standard on the LS.Recaro's will be a free standing option on the base car standard on a LS.

Who wants an automatic manual for a track car.Not me for sure after watching the experiances of M-DCT owners.

Most of us who track our M3's run a wider tire setup than the Boss is using.

Heavier than what?

Its a track car not a poser car that is not compromised for a nice street ride.

I love my M3 for normal use and also works OK on the track,not great but the Boss LS is game changer in the world of track ready specials that are affordable.
Thanks....I was going to do that.

Oh and about the fit. fiinish...have you seen a 3 series today? The mustang is easily just as good in terms of fit and finish, and has microsoft sync, while bmw has a stupid little knob to turn for your ipod unless you get nav which is useless, when you have an iphone and garmin.
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      08-19-2010, 06:37 AM   #77
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A beautiful black on black Boss.


that picture is photoshopped. i dont think that is an available color scheme.
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      08-19-2010, 11:38 AM   #78
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that picture is photoshopped. i dont think that is an available color scheme.
Thats what I thought, but its a darn good PS job.

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      08-19-2010, 11:44 AM   #79
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Yeah that is the Kona blue with white. Curb weight is 3631 for the regular 302, the LS wil be lighter.

You know mags will run the M3 against it so you'll see your results in 6 months or so.
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      08-19-2010, 01:03 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
2012 FORD MUSTANG BOSS 302 LAGUNA SECA
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
...
BASE CURB WEIGHT (pounds)
Manual transmission 3,636 (est.)
The M3 curb weight is 3649 lb (1655 kg), however they have also been weighed in on a scale at around 3570. Like I mentioned this car will very likely have a slightly better power to weight ratio than the M3.
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      08-19-2010, 01:11 PM   #81
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Quote:
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Thanks....I was going to do that.

Oh and about the fit. fiinish...have you seen a 3 series today? The mustang is easily just as good in terms of fit and finish, and has microsoft sync, while bmw has a stupid little knob to turn for your ipod unless you get nav which is useless, when you have an iphone and garmin.
Your reply seems to be directed to me.

Of course I have seen a 3 series today, I own one. And of course I have seen current gen. Mustangs and I vehemently disagree with the opinion that the fit and finish on the Mustang is anywhere close to the 3 series. Some things I consider part of fit and finish:

-Exterior and interior panel fit and gap size
-Wire, cable, hose routing and tidiness
-Interior material finishes and quality
-Paint quality
-Exterior fit and gaps for lighting
-General under hood tidiness

And in all of these areas the 3 series is superior to the current Mustang. It is as simple as - you get what you pay for.
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      08-19-2010, 02:50 PM   #82
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Your reply seems to be directed to me.

Of course I have seen a 3 series today, I own one. And of course I have seen current gen. Mustangs and I vehemently disagree with the opinion that the fit and finish on the Mustang is anywhere close to the 3 series. Some things I consider part of fit and finish:

-Exterior and interior panel fit and gap size
-Wire, cable, hose routing and tidiness
-Interior material finishes and quality
-Paint quality
-Exterior fit and gaps for lighting
-General under hood tidiness

And in all of these areas the 3 series is superior to the current Mustang. It is as simple as - you get what you pay for.
The only items you listed that I feel the BMW 3 series has over the Mustang is the interior material fiinishes..the edge goes to the bimmer. Everything else is pretty much a draw.

The body panel gap on the Mustang is extremely tight, as the cars are built at the same high tech plant that builds the Mazda6. The paint quality for Ford in general has been rated highest among manafacturers and cable routing as well as underhood tidiness..this looks pretty tidy to me.



Now there are somethings that you didn't list that I do feel are better in a 3 series than a Mustang.

1. live axle..main reason I bought the M3. Although the new Mustang with its LRA does extremely well on a smooth race track and is actually quite composed on the street, surface imperfections will cause the rear axle to dance a bit around corners if pushed hard and hitting a rut or something. Once again on a race track probably not a big deal.

2. Antennae, although they moved it to the rear the fact its not in the windshield kind of bugged me as well.

3. The hood still has a proprod....

The interior is actually pretty nice on the Mustang Premium other than the door panels which are still hard plastic but the inserts are nice.

I have a feeling you haven't really looked at a 2010/11 Mustang from what you have said so far. You didn't even know the car had a LSD, which all V8 Mustangs have had since 1982. In fact the 2011 V6 has a LSD now, in a car that bases at $22k. My 07997S at $90k didn't even offer a LSD.

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      08-19-2010, 06:48 PM   #83
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Quote:
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The only items you listed that I feel the BMW 3 series has over the Mustang is the interior material fiinishes..the edge goes to the bimmer. Everything else is pretty much a draw.

The body panel gap on the Mustang is extremely tight, as the cars are built at the same high tech plant that builds the Mazda6. The paint quality for Ford in general has been rated highest among manafacturers and cable routing as well as underhood tidiness..this looks pretty tidy to me.

Now there are somethings that you didn't list that I do feel are better in a 3 series than a Mustang.

1. live axle..main reason I bought the M3. Although the new Mustang with its LRA does extremely well on a smooth race track and is actually quite composed on the street, surface imperfections will cause the rear axle to dance a bit around corners if pushed hard and hitting a rut or something. Once again on a race track probably not a big deal.

2. Antennae, although they moved it to the rear the fact its not in the windshield kind of bugged me as well.

3. The hood still has a proprod....

The interior is actually pretty nice on the Mustang Premium other than the door panels which are still hard plastic but the inserts are nice.

I have a feeling you haven't really looked at a 2010/11 Mustang from what you have said so far. You didn't even know the car had a LSD, which all V8 Mustangs have had since 1982. In fact the 2011 V6 has a LSD now, in a car that bases at $22k. My 07997S at $90k didn't even offer a LSD.

Dave
I am talking about fit and finish only at the moment. My prior comment about the diff was a simply misread not being misinformed about the line in general. Although I will certainly agree the Mustangs fit and finish has greatly improved in the last coupe of years/generations I still feel it is clearly inferior to the 3 series. I have looked over a 2010 Mustang in person. Some things like body panel gaps can be measured but other things are a matter of preference/opinion.
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      08-19-2010, 06:57 PM   #84
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I am talking about fit and finish only at the moment. My prior comment about the diff was a simply misread not being misinformed about the line in general. Although I will certainly agree the Mustangs fit and finish has greatly improved in the last coupe of years/generations I still feel it is clearly inferior to the 3 series. I have looked over a 2010 Mustang in person. Some things like body panel gaps can be measured but other things are a matter of preference/opinion.
I'm just going to chalk this up that you don't like Mustangs and as the old addage goes "you can lead a horse to water, but you will never make him drink."

The fact is the Mustang is put together very well but some people just don't like Mustangs. I on the other hand would never buy a Chevy, including a ZO6 due to the fact I am a die hard Ford guy, even though I think that the current crop of Vettes are excellent vehicles.

Dave
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      08-19-2010, 10:51 PM   #85
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I'm just going to chalk this up that you don't like Mustangs and as the old addage goes "you can lead a horse to water, but you will never make him drink."

The fact is the Mustang is put together very well but some people just don't like Mustangs. I on the other hand would never buy a Chevy, including a ZO6 due to the fact I am a die hard Ford guy, even though I think that the current crop of Vettes are excellent vehicles.

Dave
gotta agree...Cheby = ewww. F*** Government Motors, we should have let them fail. They had the worst business model in the world but knew the right people = death of capitalism.

btw:
1998 Mustang Gt
2003 Mustang Gt
2008 Mustang Bullitt
and maybe 2011 Boss or 2011 GT500 SVT PP.
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      08-19-2010, 10:59 PM   #86
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Every mustang I've owned was bullet proof, and I rode them hard and put them up wet. For what they may lack in some peoples eyes with fit in finish is made up with tougher than a boot reliability. One of my mustangs hydroplaned, did a 360 through a ditch, took out a chunk of curb with my rear axle at the differential, and smacked a small pine tree that lifted the front end over the tree and slammed down in parking lot. Drove it home, didn't even have a ding in it. Drove it 2 more years and only replaced the brakes. It's simplicity has virtue in its durability. And for 20k less than my M3, I wouldn't expect equiv material quality.

But back to the Boss, chances are dealers are going to ask a premium for this car. In the end, it may end up costing as much as an M3 with dealer mark ups. First generation Boss's are some of the most collectable mustangs ever made and that history alone will get dealers giddy with the mark up pen. The LS even more so. It's value will likely be lost in its novelty and limited availability.

And on the weight, that est. 3660 lbs is, in my vague memory, stunningly similar to the stock GT. I'm wondering if it's someones best guess or just a standard GT reprint with "estimated" added to it.

And on the GT500 weight, the 2011 model shed 120lbs and is now very close to the 3700lbs range.

Given the premium mark up the boss is likely to get, I'd probably be more interested in the '11 GT500 with the new competition package for probably a similar price.
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      08-20-2010, 02:37 PM   #87
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I love the rear seat on the LS.

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      08-20-2010, 03:37 PM   #88
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I love the rear seat on the LS.
Or lack thereof. I like how they even have the little icons with a slash thought them to tell you not to sit there. Funny.
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