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      08-14-2010, 12:17 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Bunkei View Post
Did anyone else notice that the 5.0L V8 actually IS 302 ci? I was a bit surprised.
Yep, I noticed that when the 2011 GT specs were released.

Due to how the numbers round, the displacement of the new Coyote engine works out to both 302ci and 5L. The original Windsor pushrod V8's displacement did round up to 302ci, but in metric units actually rounded down to 4.9L. Despite that, Ford still called it a 5L for many applications (including the famous "5.0" Mustangs of the 80s).
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      08-14-2010, 12:33 PM   #24
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Remember, even at the Boss's power level it is still only 88hp/litre. The M3 is already at 103hp/litre. Ford built in improvement that wouldn't cost much. The intake manifold is what they are using on the GrandAM cars.
It's true that the intake is borrowed from the racing program, but I wouldn't say that the Boss evolution of the Coyote 5.0 was an inexpensive development by any means. If you read the press release on the Boss engine itself (I posted a link to it above) you can see the painstaking process they went through to develop the new engine including upgrading their dynamometers and developing a CNC porting process just for these heads. This is almost literally a racing engine in a production car. That's an achievement to be commended no matter how you look at it.

I do agree BMW is doing more with less overall, but then the Boss engine can be had in a much cheaper package too. Plus, the GT version of the engine makes its power on regular gas, although I don't know if that still holds true for the Boss.

I understand Finnegan's basic premise, and I somewhat agree with him. What if BMW would give the production S65 more of the technology from the P65 racing motor? Maybe not the flat-plane crank, but the heads and intake at least. Or, they could give us the 4.4L. Or combine both for that matter. I'm sure it boils down to lack of ability to make a business case for these improvements to the production M3, but its just too bad they can't find some way to do it. For that matter its too bad that the S65 itself will soon be put out to pasture, while Ford will continue on with their V8, refining it even more.
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      08-14-2010, 01:16 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It's true that the intake is borrowed from the racing program, but I wouldn't say that the Boss evolution of the Coyote 5.0 was an inexpensive development by any means. If you read the press release on the Boss engine itself (I posted a link to it above) you can see the painstaking process they went through to develop the new engine including upgrading their dynamometers and developing a CNC porting process just for these heads. This is almost literally a racing engine in a production car. That's an achievement to be commended no matter how you look at it.

I do agree BMW is doing more with less overall, but then the Boss engine can be had in a much cheaper package too. Plus, the GT version of the engine makes its power on regular gas, although I don't know if that still holds true for the Boss.

I understand Finnegan's basic premise, and I somewhat agree with him. What if BMW would give the production S65 more of the technology from the P65 racing motor? Maybe not the flat-plane crank, but the heads and intake at least. Or, they could give us the 4.4L. Or combine both for that matter. I'm sure it boils down to lack of ability to make a business case for these improvements to the production M3, but its just too bad they can't find some way to do it. For that matter its too bad that the S65 itself will soon be put out to pasture, while Ford will continue on with their V8, refining it even more.
For teams that are racing the Boss in the Continental Challenge Race Series brand new crate motors will be $5000.Turn key race legal cars are $129,000.For club racing or lapping there is a car for $79000.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...KeyField=11687

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...KeyField=11545

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      08-14-2010, 01:21 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It's true that the intake is borrowed from the racing program, but I wouldn't say that the Boss evolution of the Coyote 5.0 was an inexpensive development by any means. If you read the press release on the Boss engine itself (I posted a link to it above) you can see the painstaking process they went through to develop the new engine including upgrading their dynamometers and developing a CNC porting process just for these heads. This is almost literally a racing engine in a production car. That's an achievement to be commended no matter how you look at it.

I do agree BMW is doing more with less overall, but then the Boss engine can be had in a much cheaper package too. Plus, the GT version of the engine makes its power on regular gas, although I don't know if that still holds true for the Boss.

I understand Finnegan's basic premise, and I somewhat agree with him. What if BMW would give the production S65 more of the technology from the P65 racing motor? Maybe not the flat-plane crank, but the heads and intake at least. Or, they could give us the 4.4L. Or combine both for that matter. I'm sure it boils down to lack of ability to make a business case for these improvements to the production M3, but its just too bad they can't find some way to do it. For that matter its too bad that the S65 itself will soon be put out to pasture, while Ford will continue on with their V8, refining it even more.
I think you misunderstood me..it was inexpensive due to the racing program. Ford always intended of racing these cars, the fact that they used the race program to further the development of the street car is very economical vs. having to do the R&D inhouse.

Whats funny about the M3 in South Africa they just a new edition of the M3 that has 440hp yet here in the US we don't..its the regular 4.0L not the 4.4 too.

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      08-14-2010, 05:50 PM   #27
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I think you misunderstood me..it was inexpensive due to the racing program. Ford always intended of racing these cars, the fact that they used the race program to further the development of the street car is very economical vs. having to do the R&D inhouse.
I guess I don't see the point though. BMW has a factory M3 race program as well, right? So, they should presumably have no less expense to spare in adapting that technology to the street car than Ford did.

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Whats funny about the M3 in South Africa they just a new edition of the M3 that has 440hp yet here in the US we don't..its the regular 4.0L not the 4.4 too.
True, but we do not know to what extent these modifications effect emissions and fuel economy. Nor for that matter do we know if the engine even needs to be re-certified in South Africa. Not to mention, we don't know how reliability or longevity of the engine is effected. My suspicion is that the cost to provide these modifications - or any other engine modifications for that matter - in the US or even in Europe would be much higher than it is in South Africa. Granted, I am speculating, but certainly if BMW could make a business case for this in other regions, they'd do it.
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      08-14-2010, 06:05 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I guess I don't see the point though. BMW has a factory M3 race program as well, right? So, they should presumably have no less expense to spare in adapting that technology to the street car than Ford did.
Exactly. Both companies have similar programs, one company decided to "port" that to a higher end street legal version of the car. Which is what I commend about Ford. They really seem to get it--and I think their entire design mission around the latest Mustang shows that.

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True, but we do not know to what extent these modifications effect emissions and fuel economy. Nor for that matter do we know if the engine even needs to be re-certified in South Africa. Not to mention, we don't know how reliability or longevity of the engine is effected. My suspicion is that the cost to provide these modifications - or any other engine modifications for that matter - in the US or even in Europe would be much higher than it is in South Africa. Granted, I am speculating, but certainly if BMW could make a business case for this in other regions, they'd do it.
Yep. With a full Akra or an X-pipe, and a good tune, you can acheive those SA edition numbers. But not while being really "legal" here in the US. Whether with time and tuning and $$$ you could pass those hurdles...I don't we'll ever know.

When we come down too it, Ford sells far more Mustangs than BMW will ever see sold in M3 units in North America. So it probably does come down to what the overall business case is for making the BOSS. Ford can probably take some of the BOSS improvements and up the ante in a year or two when competitor "base" versions (e.g. Camaro) start to catch up again. They'll simply cascade the improvements down into the GT line up and voila they're back on their game. So the R&D and associated expense (CARB and EPA certification) probably has a decent return and is tied to an overall product lifecycle strategy. Since BMW is killing off the S65 there really is no similar return and it doesn't fit into a lifecycle strategy for them. The S65 is a dead man walking at this point.

So, as much as I'd like to dream about a BOSS M3, I know it ain't gonna happen.
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      08-14-2010, 07:11 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I guess I don't see the point though. BMW has a factory M3 race program as well, right? So, they should presumably have no less expense to spare in adapting that technology to the street car than Ford did.



True, but we do not know to what extent these modifications effect emissions and fuel economy. Nor for that matter do we know if the engine even needs to be re-certified in South Africa. Not to mention, we don't know how reliability or longevity of the engine is effected. My suspicion is that the cost to provide these modifications - or any other engine modifications for that matter - in the US or even in Europe would be much higher than it is in South Africa. Granted, I am speculating, but certainly if BMW could make a business case for this in other regions, they'd do it.
I guess you have to go back to the original 5.0L "cammer" motor that was in the GrandAM Mustangs, they were never made to be a production motor. The 5.0L motor that is in the Mustang now was meant from the get go to be not only in the GrandAm car but the Mustang production vehicle as well. Oh by the way guys..a little confusion. I thought I posted this on the Mustang sites I visit..LOL. Of course you guys know about the South African M3.


Also, the LS Boss is running a R compound tire..if thats what it takes to run equal or better a production M3 than how would an M3 run at LS with R compounds.

This car is going to kick some butt.
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      08-14-2010, 07:15 PM   #30
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Since BMW is killing off the S65 there really is no similar return and it doesn't fit into a lifecycle strategy for them. The S65 is a dead man walking at this point.

So, as much as I'd like to dream about a BOSS M3, I know it ain't gonna happen.
One of the reasons I bought the E92 M3 is I feel it is going to be a special item down the road. As it would be the only iteration of a V8 M3..

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      08-14-2010, 07:38 PM   #31
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When we come down too it, Ford sells far more Mustangs than BMW will ever see sold in M3 units in North America. So it probably does come down to what the overall business case is for making the BOSS.

...

So, as much as I'd like to dream about a BOSS M3, I know it ain't gonna happen.
We are on the same Page, Finnegan. And yes, its unfortunate.

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I guess you have to go back to the original 5.0L "cammer" motor that was in the GrandAM Mustangs, they were never made to be a production motor. The 5.0L motor that is in the Mustang now was meant from the get go to be not only in the GrandAm car but the Mustang production vehicle as well.
All true. But again, BMW also clearly knew from the get-go they were going racing with this car and a version of this motor also.

Quote:
Also, the LS Boss is running a R compound tire..if thats what it takes to run equal or better a production M3 than how would an M3 run at LS with R compounds.
Is that true for all Boss Mustangs, or just the special Leguna Seca edition ones with the roll cage, stiffer chassis, and highly questionable paint scheme? I am pretty sure the benchmarked the standard Boss against the M3, though I guess that was not necessarily clear in the press release.

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This car is going to kick some butt.
Yes.
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      08-14-2010, 07:44 PM   #32
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By the way, here are pics of the special "race ready" Leguna Seca Boss 302 I mentioned above, in case people haven't seen it. This is a street legal car, something akin to the GT3 RS I suppose, and not a race car like the Boss 302R and 302R1 launched earlier this year that gearhead was referring to in his post above.



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      08-14-2010, 08:01 PM   #33
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I wonder how long it will be before these get modded to make over 100hp/L @ 8000 RPM. Should be doable with bolt-ons and an ECU tune. You know someone is going to do it.
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      08-14-2010, 08:44 PM   #34
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I wonder how long it will be before these get modded to make over 100hp/L @ 8000 RPM. Should be doable with bolt-ons and an ECU tune. You know someone is going to do it.
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      08-14-2010, 09:48 PM   #35
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I wonder how long it will be before these get modded to make over 100hp/L @ 8000 RPM. Should be doable with bolt-ons and an ECU tune. You know someone is going to do it.
It's just a matter of time! I'm not a huge fan of the Mustang styling, but those photos you posted have a certain appeal--it's mean looking--and it's got the goods to actually deliver on those looks.

It's kind of tempting in a raw brutal kind of way--there's some odd attraction to it. The interior shots say "I mean business" to me. I found a whole bunch of photos--the dash and interior actually looks like it might be halfway decent. I'm not sure if this is BOSS specific or just new styling, but it's much better than the last generation. Link

Damn. Now I'm going to need to find one and look at it in person...

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      08-14-2010, 11:17 PM   #36
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Is that true for all Boss Mustangs, or just the special Leguna Seca edition ones with the roll cage, stiffer chassis, and highly questionable paint scheme? I am pretty sure the benchmarked the standard Boss against the M3, though I guess that was not necessarily clear in the press release.
Here's the PDF on the LS Boss, looks like they get the Pirelli Corsas while the standard Boss gets PZeros.

http://forums.themustangsource.com/a...s_ls_specs.pdf

The car has the standard Mustang V8 cats as it still has to be emission legal. Guys with just 2011 Mustang GTs are getting 20-25hp with a metallic catted xpipe and true long tubes. The PDF on the Boss mentions the car is tuned very aggressively from the factory, don't know how much a tune would be worth. I do think to get to 100hp/litre its probably going to take more rpm, but I do think they are going to get close. If you do get to 100hp/Litre from this normally aspirated powerplant to a level close to the GT500 at several hundred pounds less weight (2011 GT500, over 300lbs from earlier versions) and higher revving capability..Its going to be a great car for Ford and there racing heritage.

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      08-14-2010, 11:19 PM   #37
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It's just a matter of time! I'm not a huge fan of the Mustang styling, but those photos you posted have a certain appeal--it's mean looking--and it's got the goods to actually deliver on those looks.

It's kind of tempting in a raw brutal kind of way--there's some odd attraction to it. The interior shots say "I mean business" to me. I found a whole bunch of photos--the dash and interior actually looks like it might be halfway decent. I'm not sure if this is BOSS specific or just new styling, but it's much better than the last generation. Link

Damn. Now I'm going to need to find one and look at it in person...
Nope the 2010 Mustang got the interior improvements as well for all models. You need to get the premium Mustang, the standard interior has the same dash but the steering wheel, shifter, etc. don't get the nice treatment.

BTW..one at the unveiling..



Love the gas cap..





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      08-15-2010, 03:07 PM   #38
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      08-15-2010, 03:30 PM   #39
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      08-16-2010, 07:38 AM   #40
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http://www.evoperform.com/shop/ -You can get almost 500 hp out of the engine on this car with a tune and basic boltons( Headers , full exhaust,intake )
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      08-16-2010, 10:55 AM   #41
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http://www.evoperform.com/shop/ -You can get almost 500 hp out of the engine on this car with a tune and basic boltons( Headers , full exhaust,intake )


Evolution is one of the most reputable Mustang tuners out there..but you won' get 500hp with just bolt ons and a tune. They are getting 20hp with a full length header and offroad xpipe (no cats). A couple of guys tried a CAI and they actually back pedaled a little seeing the mph drop in the 1/4 mile instead of increase. There are gains to be had, you just aren't going to get 500hp.

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      08-16-2010, 11:20 AM   #42
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Trust me i know and work there. I said almost 500 from the engine not to the wheels. And we spin them to 8000.
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      08-16-2010, 11:54 AM   #43
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Trust me i know and work there. I said almost 500 from the engine not to the wheels. And we spin them to 8000.
You are going to 8000RPM with the stock GT 5.0 bottom end (no forged rods)? That's surprising. But it sounds awesome. Got any vids and a mod list?
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      08-16-2010, 04:41 PM   #44
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Trust me i know and work there. I said almost 500 from the engine not to the wheels. And we spin them to 8000.

With just bolt ons? Give us the details..trust me you are talking to a Mustang fanatic. I've been on the BMW, Porsche side lately but have been following Mustangs. From my understanding the OEM bottom end on the Mustang GT doesn't like it much above 7300rpm, but to say with just bolt ons wow that peaked my interest.

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