BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
European Auto Source
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-13-2010, 05:47 PM   #23
Mister
New Member
 
Drives: 2011 E90 Jerez
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA

Posts: 5
iTrader: (0)

Brand new guy chiming in here.

First - Hello all. I've enjoyed the forum (nice place) for a while, but didn't sign up until I finally got my car.

My $.02 on the dct vs 6mt is simple - if you have to ask, you should probably get the dct.

If a person (me, for one) is passionate about the feeling derived from driving a manual, there is no substitute, no matter how technologically advanced it may be.

That's certainly not meant to mean that dct guys aren't passionate about theirs. It is meant to mean what I say - if you're passionate about a manual, get a manual - if not, get the dct.
Mister is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-13-2010, 06:01 PM   #24
BlackLight
Second Lieutenant
 
BlackLight's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Surrey, BC

Posts: 234
iTrader: (1)

Exclamation DCT

I owned 5 manual shift cars in a row since 1995, and the DCT is the first time I drove something better than a manual. It has all the advantages of both a manual and automatic, and none of the drawbacks of either.
BlackLight is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      08-13-2010, 06:54 PM   #25
335rocket
Captain
 
Drives: 2013 F30 328i sport
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Westchester, NY

Posts: 886
iTrader: (0)

While the DCT is a great feature, I dont understand why most of you who are true sport car enthusiasts dont prefer manual instead. I dont know, guess its a personal thing. But I would think there would be more M3 stick drivers as opposed to DCT
__________________
2013 F30 328i
Mineral Grey/Everest Grey leather/sport line/8 auto/premium package/lighting package/navi/heated seats
335rocket is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-13-2010, 07:08 PM   #26
Psylight
Brigadier General
 
Psylight's Avatar
 
Drives: Teh Space Gray E92 M 6MT Scene
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Diamond Bar ,California

Posts: 3,480
iTrader: (10)

Garage List
2008 335i  [0.00]
Send a message via AIM to Psylight
Ive been automatic for all of my cars, except my M. I will never go back to auto. The end.
__________________

The Ultimate Driving Scene
Psylight is offline   Mexico
0
Reply With Quote
      08-13-2010, 07:41 PM   #27
BMWMFAN27
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2011 E93 IB M3
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Posts: 366
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psylight View Post
Ive been automatic for all of my cars, except my M. I will never go back to auto. The end.
I have always been an automatic guy except for my first car ever back when i was 16. I prefer the DCT.
BMWMFAN27 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-13-2010, 07:43 PM   #28
radiantm3
Apex Everything!
 
radiantm3's Avatar
 
Drives: >1000 HP in my garage
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Danville, CA

Posts: 3,731
iTrader: (5)

Garage List
2011 E92 M3  [4.80]
2013 BMW X5M  [4.33]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackLight View Post
I owned 5 manual shift cars in a row since 1995, and the DCT is the first time I drove something better than a manual. It has all the advantages of both a manual and automatic, and none of the drawbacks of either.
DCT doesn't provide the enjoyment of double-clutching and rev matching on a downshift yourself or heel-toeing into a corner. Yes, it does it for you, but takes out 90% of the fun doing it yourself and getting it right. There's also joy in using your left foot and right hand to manually shift. With DCT, you are telling the car what to do. With a manual, you are almost part of the mechanics of the car. It's just a more engaging experience. No one can argue with that.

So yes, it has advantages over a manual (like being faster and always performing perfect up and downshifts), but there are still advantages a manual has over DCT which is true control over shifting which provides a more engaging experience.
__________________
(1:40 @ Laguna Seca, 2:03 @ Thunderhill, 1:52 @ Infineon)

Last edited by radiantm3; 08-13-2010 at 07:54 PM.
radiantm3 is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-13-2010, 07:47 PM   #29
sor
Lieutenant
 
sor's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011.5 E93 M3 MW/FR
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UT

Posts: 531
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 335rocket View Post
While the DCT is a great feature, I dont understand why most of you who are true sport car enthusiasts dont prefer manual instead. I dont know, guess its a personal thing. But I would think there would be more M3 stick drivers as opposed to DCT
Plenty of sportscars use fancy, non-manual transmissions, and have for awhile. I think of non-manuals (DCT, SMG, DSG) as more about performance with the added benefit of convenience. Most people who get manuals do so simply because they find them more enjoyable (which is why if you have to ask, you should go DCT). It's not really a sportscar vs non-sportscar debate.
sor is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-13-2010, 08:45 PM   #30
piloto
Captain
 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3 - AW/FR
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Orange County, CA

Posts: 835
iTrader: (0)

No offense OP, but I hate seeing these threads, because there is no objective answer. It's down to preference. There's nothing wrong with either. The car wasn't made for one or the other. It was made for both. The bottom line, and the point often overlooked, is that you still have a choice. For many other cars, that choice does not exist. So let's be thankful that BMW offers both for all of its enthusiasts.
piloto is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-13-2010, 09:18 PM   #31
dimabimmer
Lieutenant Colonel
 
dimabimmer's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 E92 M3 ZCP 6MT
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn to SoHo NYC

Posts: 1,740
iTrader: (0)

^^^^

+!1

6MT here
__________________
'11 E92 M3 ZCP SG 6MT Tech Sound USB Heat Cloth Aluminium Sunshade
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=422151
dimabimmer is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-14-2010, 11:48 AM   #32
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: IB/PS M-DCT E93 M3
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,561
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
Funny - every DCT car I have driven - and that must be about 15 now - does not downshift 2 gears if I ask it to, the transmission always selects the intermediate gear first before getting the gear I ask for. Watch the rev counter, you can see it doing this.

Having had SMG as well I would definitely say that this is one thing that SMG does do faster than DCT.
You've got me curious now. I'll try in later on an isolated stretch of road. I am almost certain you must be wrong though. What I'll do is put the car in D2, let it get to 7th gear at about 45 mph, and absolutely jam on the brakes. I'll bet you the rev counter does not hit every single gear on its way down to 1st. If it does, then I will be truely amazed at the speed of this shifts, thats for sure.

In any case, I can't see how the behavior of the DCT here - whatever it is - could really be considered a disadvantage vs. SMG. What exactly are you hoping the car will do better here?
__________________
2008 Interlagos Blue E93 M3 - FOR SALE - Engine failure at 95k miles.
Best offer takes it: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...1#post16279561
mkoesel is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-14-2010, 12:31 PM   #33
Tony B
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2012 E92 M3, MW, ZCP, 6MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: UK

Posts: 234
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
You've got me curious now. I'll try in later on an isolated stretch of road. I am almost certain you must be wrong though. What I'll do is put the car in D2, let it get to 7th gear at about 45 mph, and absolutely jam on the brakes. I'll bet you the rev counter does not hit every single gear on its way down to 1st. If it does, then I will be truely amazed at the speed of this shifts, thats for sure.

In any case, I can't see how the behavior of the DCT here - whatever it is - could really be considered a disadvantage vs. SMG. What exactly are you hoping the car will do better here?
To be honest, I am not sure about D mode, my comments were about S mode, and what happens when you pull the paddle twice, in order to get 2 shifts, e.g 4 to 6. If you think about it, the clutch in action must be the clutch required if you skip a gear, 4th and 6th, and 2nd all use the same clutch. If drive is to be maintained, the transmission must select the intermediate gear whilst the clutch being used is disengaged, to allow the desired gear to be selected......if you see what I mean.

In the hard braking situation you describe, it could be that the transmission predicts your requirement and does not shift sequentially through each gear, but targets the right gear when the deceleration has finished, and whilst braking hard you probably dont notice the sequence of changes.

My point was, there is one circumstance where SMG does shift quicker than DCT - when you are looking to skip 1 gear, because underneath it all, the actual gearbox uses an H-pattern, which does not require selection of the intermediate gear
Tony B is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-14-2010, 12:46 PM   #34
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: IB/PS M-DCT E93 M3
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,561
iTrader: (1)

I do see what you mean with respect to DCT, however I have to disagree with you. And, regarding the SMG transmission, I disagree that it uses an H pattern. I suppose you meant that it is a standard 6 speed manual transmission? If so, yes, I acknowledge that is true. But I don't think you understand that the DCT is also not a sequential manual (like found on a typical motorcycle) either. It can shift from any gear too any gear. In fact, we just recently had this discussion in another thread. Since we've gone OT quite a bit here, I will direct you there for further discussion (if you would):

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412453

I said a whole lot about this topic there that I don't want to repeat again. Now, if you read the thread you'll probably note that there is some speculation there too. However, much of what I said there can be backed up simply by trying these things IRL, which I have done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
To be honest, I am not sure about D mode, my comments were about S mode, and what happens when you pull the paddle twice, in order to get 2 shifts, e.g 4 to 6. If you think about it, the clutch in action must be the clutch required if you skip a gear, 4th and 6th, and 2nd all use the same clutch. If drive is to be maintained, the transmission must select the intermediate gear whilst the clutch being used is disengaged, to allow the desired gear to be selected......if you see what I mean.

...

My point was, there is one circumstance where SMG does shift quicker than DCT - when you are looking to skip 1 gear, because underneath it all, the actual gearbox uses an H-pattern, which does not require selection of the intermediate gear
__________________
2008 Interlagos Blue E93 M3 - FOR SALE - Engine failure at 95k miles.
Best offer takes it: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...1#post16279561
mkoesel is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-14-2010, 12:47 PM   #35
sor
Lieutenant
 
sor's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011.5 E93 M3 MW/FR
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UT

Posts: 531
iTrader: (0)

Why does it have to switch to the other transmission though? I agree it should be slower than single shifts to switch between 2-4 directly on the same transmission, but couldn't it do a disengage 4 - select 2 - engage 2 instead of a disengage 4 - engage 3 - select 2 - disengage 3 - engage 2?
sor is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-14-2010, 01:16 PM   #36
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: IB/PS M-DCT E93 M3
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,561
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sor View Post
Why does it have to switch to the other transmission though?
It doesn't. And - small nitpick - there's only one transmission. There are two clutches and two output shafts though, yes.

Quote:
I agree it should be slower than single shifts to switch between 2-4 directly on the same transmission, but couldn't it do a disengage 4 - select 2 - engage 2 instead of a disengage 4 - engage 3 - select 2 - disengage 3 - engage 2?
Yes, it absolutely could do that and absolutely does do that.
__________________
2008 Interlagos Blue E93 M3 - FOR SALE - Engine failure at 95k miles.
Best offer takes it: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...1#post16279561
mkoesel is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-14-2010, 01:30 PM   #37
double eagle
Private First Class
 
double eagle's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 M3, '09 MS3
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: 39.0N 105.1W

Posts: 121
iTrader: (0)

If possible, test drive both and decide which is better for you.
__________________
08 M3-07.jpg
BMWCCA since 2003
double eagle is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-14-2010, 01:32 PM   #38
ss134
Brigadier General
 
ss134's Avatar
 
Drives: ...a hard bargain...
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Germany/UK

Posts: 3,562
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kibosh View Post
I've driven stick all my life but I'm thinking of going DCT when I order my M3... it somehow seems wrong, but I can't see myself being able to shift faster than the technology, and in stop and go traffic a stick is irritating...
I was the same as you 15 years driving MT...took a chance and ordered DCT on my M3 and it is absolutely amazing - forget daily driving and convenience........when you are getting on it DCT is just so much fun, the shifts in S5 or S6 push you back into the seat with no loss of momentum, the throttle blipping on the downshifts as you approach corner, the car is not just faster 0-60, it is just faster period - it is an amazing transmission.
I have heard the arguements that 6MT is more fun and involving -never thought i'd say this but i disagree.
__________________
2014 AW F80 M3 DCT
2011 AW E90 M3 DCT - Sold
2010 JZB E90 M3 DCT - Sold
2009 6MT E90 LCI 335i M -Sport - Sold
ss134 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      08-14-2010, 01:36 PM   #39
ss134
Brigadier General
 
ss134's Avatar
 
Drives: ...a hard bargain...
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Germany/UK

Posts: 3,562
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
To be honest, I am not sure about D mode, my comments were about S mode, and what happens when you pull the paddle twice, in order to get 2 shifts, e.g 4 to 6. If you think about it, the clutch in action must be the clutch required if you skip a gear, 4th and 6th, and 2nd all use the same clutch. If drive is to be maintained, the transmission must select the intermediate gear whilst the clutch being used is disengaged, to allow the desired gear to be selected......if you see what I mean.

In the hard braking situation you describe, it could be that the transmission predicts your requirement and does not shift sequentially through each gear, but targets the right gear when the deceleration has finished, and whilst braking hard you probably dont notice the sequence of changes.

My point was, there is one circumstance where SMG does shift quicker than DCT - when you are looking to skip 1 gear, because underneath it all, the actual gearbox uses an H-pattern, which does not require selection of the intermediate gear

Don't agree - i can shift from 6th to 3rd with 3 quick flicks of the left paddle almost instantly......or just plant the throttle fully and pull on the left paddle once and DCT will put me in the optimal gear and revs for max acceleration.
__________________
2014 AW F80 M3 DCT
2011 AW E90 M3 DCT - Sold
2010 JZB E90 M3 DCT - Sold
2009 6MT E90 LCI 335i M -Sport - Sold
ss134 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      08-14-2010, 02:42 PM   #40
ferrari6891
the original brown guy
 
ferrari6891's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E92 M3, 11 E90 M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: tenafly, nj/ boston, ma

Posts: 973
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2011.75 E90 M3  [3.83]
:
__________________
2011 E90 ///M3 AW/FR
ACM Exhaust with CF tips, CF splitters, CF mirror caps, OEM Performance CF trunk Spoiler, gloss black side markers and hood vents, AW painted reflectors, matte black kidney grills, OSS-ACM Headlights, ZCP/GTS matte black wheels
Future: tints, RD sport springs, turner test pipes, CF roof vinyl
ferrari6891 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-14-2010, 03:00 PM   #41
335rocket
Captain
 
Drives: 2013 F30 328i sport
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Westchester, NY

Posts: 886
iTrader: (0)

faster because it may shift a tad bit quicker, but I highly doubt the acceleration is any faster
__________________
2013 F30 328i
Mineral Grey/Everest Grey leather/sport line/8 auto/premium package/lighting package/navi/heated seats
335rocket is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-14-2010, 03:16 PM   #42
sor
Lieutenant
 
sor's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011.5 E93 M3 MW/FR
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UT

Posts: 531
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 335rocket View Post
faster because it may shift a tad bit quicker, but I highly doubt the acceleration is any faster
BMW disagrees with you. They quote 2 tenths faster to 60. You should take it up with them
sor is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-14-2010, 03:19 PM   #43
335rocket
Captain
 
Drives: 2013 F30 328i sport
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Westchester, NY

Posts: 886
iTrader: (0)

yeah I know that, Im saying 2 tenths of a sec faster due to quicker shifting, not actual power and acceleration
__________________
2013 F30 328i
Mineral Grey/Everest Grey leather/sport line/8 auto/premium package/lighting package/navi/heated seats
335rocket is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      08-14-2010, 03:30 PM   #44
mfeltiii
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: '10 AW E92 6mt
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: S. FLA

Posts: 262
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sor View Post
BMW disagrees with you. They quote 2 tenths faster to 60. You should take it up with them
omg
mfeltiii is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:02 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST