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      08-04-2010, 05:14 PM   #1
Rochdale Pioneers
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American Politics 101

I'm hoping that some of you can help me out here. I here a lot of hatred in the media between Republicans and Democrats, with terms like "liberal" and "conservative" spat at people like they are offensive.

Yet compared to most of the other countries in the developed world both your parties are right wing - you don't have the social democratic tradition on any scale as we have across Europe and Australasia.

So as the two sides aren't that different, were does the hatred come from and what is apparently making it so much more bitter as time goes on? We in Britain have just (not) elected the most right wing government in 20 years, and yet Obama does some stuff so far to the right that our government would wince in pain rather than adopt similar policies.

Is there any political movement of the left in America? I mean left of "liberal" which where I come from (and what I see of the Dems) is centre right?
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      08-04-2010, 08:23 PM   #2
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There is not a left wing in America.
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      08-04-2010, 10:46 PM   #3
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There is not a left wing in America.
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      08-05-2010, 09:53 AM   #4
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US history is interesting. The Republicans and Democrats of today do not hold the same beliefs as those who belonged to their party prior to 1930 or even 1860's.

Republicans are typically described as "Conservative" either fiscally, socially, or both whereas Democrats are "Liberal" in both. Unfortunately people associate the word "liberal" with Democrats which is a shame because it doesn't always mean such (Ex. www.Mises.org)

The press associates the Republicans as being favorble to Big Business and Wall Street however some of the biggest supporters of both are Democrats (Senator Charles Schumer, Senator Chris Dodd, Congressmen Barney Frank). The press also associates Republicans with most Protestants groups under the idea of family values (Makes them easy targets when they cheat on their wives).

The press associates the Democrats with Labor Unions, Environmentalists, Technology (Silicon Valley is in California which is a "liberal state".), Non-whites or people of atypical sexual persuasion.


The reality is that these are generalizations and both parties don't always function according to their CORE principles. (Ex, Republicans have always campaigned on fiscal restraint when it comes to spending money yet the Iraq and Afghan campaigns have been financed 100% with debt. From ~2000 to 2008 the Republicans had a majority within both the House of Representatives and the Senate as well as a Republican President.)

The United States is a republic not a democracy and it has been trending socialist for a long long time. It's more of a corporate oligarchy where the people still vote but the candidates all come from the same pool.

I've always felt Ayn Rand has the best description of both groups (you've already read that post).

IMO the last Republican is Congressmen Ron Paul.


There really are no european equilivants. I think in Europe you have groups which carry some ideals of both the Republicans and Democrats. Something to keep in mind is that the United States IS the largest consumer of goods and services within the world and a superpower. This means that most European countries rely on our consumption to fuel their economic growth. This and the defacto protection allows them to spend more $$ on social programs than say defense.

Last edited by Socom; 08-05-2010 at 10:02 AM.
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      08-05-2010, 10:03 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Zell View Post
If you compare our political system to that of most European countries, our "liberals" fall somewhere around the middle. While we consider liberal democrats "super left wing" over here, they are not even close comparatively. Super left wing in any European country would be something like the communist parties.

We have a very confused political party system IMO and one that is also very inefficient. Oh, and just a fun fact...(southern) democrats used to be way more "right winged" than republicans...
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      08-05-2010, 10:08 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Rochdale Pioneers View Post
I'm hoping that some of you can help me out here. I here a lot of hatred in the media between Republicans and Democrats, with terms like "liberal" and "conservative" spat at people like they are offensive.

Yet compared to most of the other countries in the developed world both your parties are right wing - you don't have the social democratic tradition on any scale as we have across Europe and Australasia.

So as the two sides aren't that different, were does the hatred come from and what is apparently making it so much more bitter as time goes on? We in Britain have just (not) elected the most right wing government in 20 years, and yet Obama does some stuff so far to the right that our government would wince in pain rather than adopt similar policies.

Is there any political movement of the left in America? I mean left of "liberal" which where I come from (and what I see of the Dems) is centre right?
There are very, very small independent parties that are left of liberal, but none that are significant enough to make any sort of impact on politics.

Our democratic party imo falls exactly where your liberal democrats do over in the UK.

Out of curiosity, are you part of the Labour Party?
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      08-05-2010, 02:45 PM   #7
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Yes, I'm a member of the Labour party and have been since I left school (now 33). My party often gets things wrong and has made some monumentally stupid decisions. But its broad principles - that as a society humanity is a fairer and stronger place - chime with my own. I'm in a well paid job and I'm set for a career that will pay me even more as I progress. So I see that I have a responsibility to the society of which I'm part to pay my taxes and see them help those who work just as hard but have been less fortunate.

I am all for capitalism - its brought prosperity to the world. But it needs to be tempered, for it also brings rampant inequality misery and suffering. Markets have to be controlled and regulated to bring benefits for society, otherwise they benefit only themselves. I spend each and every day trying to deliverprofit for the shareholders of my company. The flip side is the need to pay taxes to pay for all the services a decent society needs which aren't profitable.
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      08-05-2010, 03:23 PM   #8
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im a conservative libertarian, i think most of the politicians in congress need to be strung up from the street lamps of DC. I think Ron Paul would be the best choice as president, but theres not enough sheep who have open eyes. I believe the federal govt should be responsible for national defense and justice, leave transportation to the states and let people make there own decisions on how they want to live amoungst there own local communities.

P.s. Fed could still have small areas of controll with a very limited EPA/FDA...other than that i cannot think of any other depts they need other that DOD and DOJ. (Interstate Highway System was created for defense purposes, so that would be the only roadways they would have authority over)

Taxes should either be direct (everyones life is equal, so everyon pays the same for Armed Services and FBI)(we all share ecosytem so we all pay same for EPA) or excise (gas taxes to pay for roads)(booze, cigarette and drug taxes to pay for FDA)
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      08-13-2010, 02:15 PM   #9
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Conservatives are generally Christian, white, racist, sexist, hateful, and greedy. They believe that the US was created by Jesus to shelter them from blacks, Jews, and homosexuals while they become fabulously wealthy and poison the environment. In the comfort of their own homes they often abuse their children, engage in gay sex, take drugs, and worship the devil...all while listening to the music of Michael Bolton.

Liberals are generally everyone else.



You may proceed to AP102.
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      08-13-2010, 04:13 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Rochdale Pioneers View Post
Yes, I'm a member of the Labour party and have been since I left school (now 33). My party often gets things wrong and has made some monumentally stupid decisions. But its broad principles - that as a society humanity is a fairer and stronger place - chime with my own. I'm in a well paid job and I'm set for a career that will pay me even more as I progress. So I see that I have a responsibility to the society of which I'm part to pay my taxes and see them help those who work just as hard but have been less fortunate.

I am all for capitalism - its brought prosperity to the world. But it needs to be tempered, for it also brings rampant inequality misery and suffering. Markets have to be controlled and regulated to bring benefits for society, otherwise they benefit only themselves. I spend each and every day trying to deliverprofit for the shareholders of my company. The flip side is the need to pay taxes to pay for all the services a decent society needs which aren't profitable.
Yet the government clearly has not done a good job at it. Your own country's history of currency debasement is a prime example. I think you and most 'liberals' confuse capitalism with corportism. Englands economy is not capitalistic and neither is the economy within the United States. In a truly capitalistic society you would not have thousands of 'phantom jobs' created by malinvestment courtesy of the government (and to think gov't was supposed to help you?).

Do me a favor and spend some time on Mises.org to get a different perspective of what the government really does to the economy.
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      08-16-2010, 11:36 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ellipsis212 View Post
Conservatives are generally Christian, white, racist, sexist, hateful, and greedy. They believe that the US was created by Jesus to shelter them from blacks, Jews, and homosexuals while they become fabulously wealthy and poison the environment. In the comfort of their own homes they often abuse their children, engage in gay sex, take drugs, and worship the devil...all while listening to the music of Michael Bolton.

Liberals are generally everyone else.



You may proceed to AP102.

WOW! I used to think the problems with this country were too multifactorial to be pinpointed. But in reality, its just you. Fucking unbelievable, you sir are a unsalvageable moron.

Last edited by mfeltiii; 08-16-2010 at 11:41 PM.
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      08-16-2010, 11:56 PM   #12
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ron paul ftmfw

and yes. republicans and democrats have really made a switch in the past 50-100 years

wealthy democrats used to be slave owners in the south.... republicans used to be the party of racial equality in the 60's and now theyre labeled as racist and democrats try to pretend they were always that way.
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      08-17-2010, 01:52 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by ellipsis212 View Post
Conservatives are generally Christian, white, racist, sexist, hateful, and greedy. They believe that the US was created by Jesus to shelter them from blacks, Jews, and homosexuals while they become fabulously wealthy and poison the environment. In the comfort of their own homes they often abuse their children, engage in gay sex, take drugs, and worship the devil...all while listening to the music of Michael Bolton.

Liberals are generally everyone else.



You may proceed to AP102.
Translation: "MY SIDE IS RIGHT AND THE OTHER SIDE IS WRONG! NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH!"

That's extremely generalizing and douchey. This mentality is what is wrong with this country.
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      08-17-2010, 03:09 PM   #14
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I'm so glad I'm still a non-partisan thinker, even though some may criticize my thinking with Jesus in my heart. The non-partisan primary ballots are a lot shorter
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      08-18-2010, 11:46 AM   #15
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ron paul ftmfw

and yes. republicans and democrats have really made a switch in the past 50-100 years

wealthy democrats used to be slave owners in the south.... republicans used to be the party of racial equality in the 60's and now theyre labeled as racist and democrats try to pretend they were always that way.
+1 for Dr. Paul.

Unfortunately he's not a real threat to the political establishment.
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      08-18-2010, 05:58 PM   #16
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WOW! I used to think the problems with this country were too multifactorial to be pinpointed. But in reality, its just you. Fucking unbelievable, you sir are a unsalvageable moron.
zinger!

oh i should've added: Republicans have no sense of humor which is a clear indication of a lack of intelligence.
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      08-18-2010, 06:00 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Zell View Post
Translation: "MY SIDE IS RIGHT AND THE OTHER SIDE IS WRONG! NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH!"

That's extremely generalizing and douchey. This mentality is what is wrong with this country.
Please refer to my above response re: sense of humor
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      08-18-2010, 06:20 PM   #18
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Please refer to my above response re: sense of humor
Unfortunatly, there is a large group of America that feels exactly this way. If you don't see that you are blind. So if you want to joke about it on a written forum you need to provide some sort of evidence or clue that you are joking. The only thing I know of you is that you are from NYC according to your sig, which statistically speaking would suggest that you are serious.

PS> The only evidence of lack of intelligence here would be to challenge someone you know NOTHING about with respect to their intelligence. You're welcome to visit for an IQ test anytime. I don't know you either, but believe me, I like my odds.
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      08-18-2010, 07:36 PM   #19
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So if you want to joke about it on a written forum you need to provide some sort of evidence or clue that you are joking.
ummm...Michael Bolton? forgive my affront if you're an avid fan, but generally speaking the mere utterance of any random string of syllables that approximate the sound of that name is considered to be, at worst, a decent joke in most languages, let alone the native tongue of the aforementioned crooner.

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The only thing I know of you is that you are from NYC according to your sig, which statistically speaking would suggest that you are serious.
now it's you who can't possibly be serious. you're talking about 20+ million people in the NYC metro area who, despite popularized media portrayals of self-centered gruffness, actually represent a pretty reasonable cross section of humanity itself.

even if you deduced from my username that i live in Manhattan (which would be correct) then you could only narrow me down to being one of 2+ million people which includes everyone from the homeless to billionaires. you probably could hedge your bet on the likelihood that i fall somewhere in between those 2 extremes given the fact that 1) Manhattan is known to be relatively expensive and 2) i'm clearly active on a BMW forum which would indicate that i probably own a nice car in a city where owning a nice car is a luxury generally reserved for the wealthy or the lucky. however, there is no way that you could have ascertained my general disposition from my geographic location.

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PS> The only evidence of lack of intelligence here would be to challenge someone you know NOTHING about with respect to their intelligence. You're welcome to visit for an IQ test anytime. I don't know you either, but believe me, I like my odds.
i was simply stating that humor is a trait enjoyed by those who understand things well enough to know when they aren't serious, such as those who would catch a "Michael Bolton" at the end of a string of extremely ridiculous claims.

i'm not going to put forth any personal challenges or ad hominem attacks because i stand firm on my own achievements and character.
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      08-19-2010, 03:24 AM   #20
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ummm...Michael Bolton? forgive my affront if you're an avid fan, but generally speaking the mere utterance of any random string of syllables that approximate the sound of that name is considered to be, at worst, a decent joke in most languages, let alone the native tongue of the aforementioned crooner.



now it's you who can't possibly be serious. you're talking about 20+ million people in the NYC metro area who, despite popularized media portrayals of self-centered gruffness, actually represent a pretty reasonable cross section of humanity itself.

even if you deduced from my username that i live in Manhattan (which would be correct) then you could only narrow me down to being one of 2+ million people which includes everyone from the homeless to billionaires. you probably could hedge your bet on the likelihood that i fall somewhere in between those 2 extremes given the fact that 1) Manhattan is known to be relatively expensive and 2) i'm clearly active on a BMW forum which would indicate that i probably own a nice car in a city where owning a nice car is a luxury generally reserved for the wealthy or the lucky. however, there is no way that you could have ascertained my general disposition from my geographic location.



i was simply stating that humor is a trait enjoyed by those who understand things well enough to know when they aren't serious, such as those who would catch a "Michael Bolton" at the end of a string of extremely ridiculous claims.

i'm not going to put forth any personal challenges or ad hominem attacks because i stand firm on my own achievements and character.
You are elucidating my point brilliantly! That is nobody here can ascertian enough about you on a written forum to know that you are joking. I stated THE ONLY thing about you I could see was that you were from NYC and that therefore STATISTICALLY you likely leaned left and therefore more likely to be making an at least "jokingly serious" statement if you will allow me to make up a word.

NYC is on anyones short list of liberal/democratic cities in America (google it). That is a STATISTICAL fact, and I never implied that was bad! You read my STATISTICALLY correct statement and decided to use it as a reason to give a rant on the diversity of the city. Which, as above, only further proves my point that nobody can tell you're joking because you could be Donald Trump or RuPaul.

All that being said, based on your unprovoked nature of your statement, its irrelevance to the OP's question and your subsequent anti-republican remark, you've yet to convince me you were completely joking.

In regards to you last statement and in an attempt to lighten the mood, allow me to indulge in ad hominem tu quoque... You started it!
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      08-19-2010, 10:27 AM   #21
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ad nauseum.

stop taking yourself so seriously, and stop assuming that you're smarter and more clever than anyone that you "don't get" since, statistically speaking, you aren't.

google it? IQ test? dude, Michael Bolton wuz here so that means i'm out.
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      08-19-2010, 11:36 AM   #22
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Please refer to my above response re: sense of humor
I missed it on myself.

For real, though, even though that response was fake, I've seen that kind of stuff before and it just bewilders me how people can be like that. So it was hard to tell if it was sarcastic
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