Cold Start Engine Knock / Rattle - Page 7

Mike Benvo · 10-19-2012, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Hey Mike, please feel free to contribute and post your video over here. Thread is dedicated to the subject: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=705895&page=3

Thank you very much.

I have drafted an email to my dealers shop foreman and service manager, with links to this thread and an explanation of the noise. I hope to hear their input soon.

For now, here is the video I took this morning (please excuse the expletives, at first I couldn't get the phone to stay up, and then when I started the car I saw it fall behind the engine which scared me. I turned the car off right away... Luckily it was in a spot that was easily retrievable. Also interesting is a "flash" that you see, maybe its the angel eyes?) I will record the starts every morning to monitor this.

If you listen very closely you can hear it (@ 23-25 secs)...

FormulaMMM · 10-19-2012, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Thank you very much.

I have drafted an email to my dealers shop foreman and service manager, with links to this thread and an explanation of the noise. I hope to hear their input soon.

For now, here is the video I took this morning (please excuse the expletives, at first I couldn't get the phone to stay up, and then when I started the car I saw it fall behind the engine which scared me. I turned the car off right away... Luckily it was in a spot that was easily retrievable. Also interesting is a "flash" that you see, maybe its the angel eyes?) I will record the starts every morning to monitor this.

If you listen very closely you can hear it (@ 23-25 secs)...

Heard it perfectly. Exact reproduction of the noise I'm experiencing.

Look forward to the input from your shop.

Mike Benvo · 10-19-2012, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Heard it perfectly. Exact reproduction of the noise I'm experiencing.

Look forward to the input from your shop.

I think this is a lot more widespread than people think. Just 95% of people won't hear it when not listening for it, and especially with the drivers door closed.

FormulaMMM · 10-19-2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I think this is a lot more widespread than people think. Just 95% of people won't hear it when not listening for it, and especially with the drivers door closed.

Agreed. Door closed, windows up and it's not noticeable.

italyix · 10-19-2012, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Agreed. Door closed, windows up and it's not noticeable.

I tend to disagree with this, mine is very pronounced with windows and doors closed. Only when car is on incline though and cold start. Flat surfaces its noise free. Noise is kinda scary though...thank god for the warranty, 1 more year to go before it expires.

Kinda reminds me of my Evo IX at cold start up. Oil needed to flow before eveything was lubed up.

Dodge2Dub · 10-19-2012, 02:56 PM

...is it just the noise at 23 seconds or does it carry through 24 and 25 seconds?

FormulaMMM · 10-19-2012, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by italyix

I tend to disagree with this, mine is very pronounced with windows and doors closed. Only when car is on incline though and cold start. Flat surfaces its noise free. Noise is kinda scary though...thank god for the warranty, 1 more year to go before it expires.

Kinda reminds me of my Evo IX at cold start up. Oil needed to flow before eveything was lubed up.

I believe it. What I'm trying to say is that perhaps there would be even more accounts of the noise if most started the car with the driver's door open, windows open.

In Mike's video above it's audible, but probably wouldn't be noticed inside the cabin all closed up. More often than not my cold start resembles what's heard in Mike's video, and not the particularly loud grind in the video I posted.

Mike Benvo · 10-19-2012, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

I believe it. What I'm trying to say is that perhaps there would be even more accounts of the noise if most started the car with the driver's door open, windows open.

In Mike's video above it's audible, but probably wouldn't be noticed inside the cabin all closed up. More often than not my cold start resembles what's heard in Mike's video, and not the particularly loud grind in the video I posted.

Exactly... If I listen for it (and depending on how long the car has been sitting unstarted), I can hear it with the windows and doors closed. But I would only expect 1% of people to hear it in this situation unless they were specifically looking for it.

Mike Benvo · 10-19-2012, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge2Dub

...is it just the noise at 23 seconds or does it carry through 24 and 25 seconds?

It's exactly at 24 seconds.

I also want to point out that if I drive the car and then park it. Come back 5 hours later and start it, no noise whatsoever. If I start it and hear the noise, and then restart it again, no noise at all. So it's a matter of oil not being where it's supposed to be, or some sort of pressure loss somewhere. Letting it sit for hours and hours unstarted almost guarantees I will hear it if I listen for it.

italyix · 10-19-2012, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

I believe it. What I'm trying to say is that perhaps there would be even more accounts of the noise if most started the car with the driver's door open, windows open.

In Mike's video above it's audible, but probably wouldn't be noticed inside the cabin all closed up. More often than not my cold start resembles what's heard in Mike's video, and not the particularly loud grind in the video I posted.

I'll try and get a video in-cabin, to further add to the Mike et al videos on the threads. This should give others a general idea of what to listen for.

FormulaMMM · 10-19-2012, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by italyix

I'll try and get a video in-cabin, to further add to the Mike et al videos on the threads. This should give others a general idea of what to listen for.

Sounds good. Inside and outside if you can. Please post over here as well http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=705895&page=3

M3PO · 10-19-2012, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I've asked technicians about this before and they claim that it's normal and the vanos pressurizing.

IIRC, there are check valves that are supposed to keep the VANOS pressurized.

Dodge2Dub · 10-19-2012, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

It's exactly at 24 seconds.

I also want to point out that if I drive the car and then park it. Come back 5 hours later and start it, no noise whatsoever. If I start it and hear the noise, and then restart it again, no noise at all. So it's a matter of oil not being where it's supposed to be, or some sort of pressure loss somewhere. Letting it sit for hours and hours unstarted almost guarantees I will hear it if I listen for it.

Ah, it's the shhhh sound! I expected to hear a clank noise, which I did at 23 seconds, but by 24 you hear the shhhh.

Mike Benvo · 10-19-2012, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M3PO

IIRC, there are check valves that are supposed to keep the VANOS pressurized.

I had to look up what IIRC stood for, lol..

Can you post the repair order from when they did the work on your car? I would like to see it and provide it to my dealer for when they investigate this further.

The noise only bugs me if it will cause issues down the line. That would be the only reason why I would have it addressed. Engine operation is flawless besides this stupid noise...

Mike Benvo · 10-19-2012, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge2Dub

Ah, it's the swish sound! I expected to hear a clank noise, which I did at 23 seconds, but by 24 you hear the swish.

I hear a click or clank at 24.

The initial noise you hear is contact before the engine builds oil pressure, which is normal. The distinct click at 24 seconds is what I'm most concerned with.

Dodge2Dub · 10-19-2012, 03:54 PM

Non-technical response: sounds like a hand-over function is taking place between the initial noise and the pressure building swish noise.

I'm at 41K, but have been listening for the wrong noise. I'll take a listen tomorrow.

M3PO · 10-19-2012, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I had to look up what IIRC stood for, lol..

Can you post the repair order from when they did the work on your car? I would like to see it and provide it to my dealer for when they investigate this further.

The noise only bugs me if it will cause issues down the line. That would be the only reason why I would have it addressed. Engine operation is flawless besides this stupid noise...

Mike Benvo · 10-19-2012, 04:12 PM

Thanks for posting it...

Looks like they replaced the gears 1-4 and that solved the issue. I wonder about the other side...

What a mess..

Mike Benvo · 10-19-2012, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge2Dub

Non-technical response: sounds like a hand-over function is taking place between the initial noise and the pressure building swish noise.

I'm at 41K, but have been listening for the wrong noise. I'll take a listen tomorrow.

I do agree that it sort of sounds like a hand off function... like the pressure building causes the noise and then it's fine once oil is on everything.

Let it sit for as long as you can and report back what you find. Thanks!

racedoc11 · 10-19-2012, 09:09 PM

The chain Tensioner part number : 11-31-7-839-053 they changed both tensioners. Since then I had no noise issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

This is probably sage advice.. And I suppose it's worth considering that in a car with sensors galore, the issue doesn't trigger a check engine light. Engine runs flawlessly.

I had the car at the dealer last weekend in an attempt to get them to formally document and diagnose the issue. I reported it under warranty twice, documented with a video. So 5 cold starts later at the dealer, including a few with me on site, and no noise. Happens almost every morning, just not while at the dealer. Damn car.

They searched every BMW service database available to them in an effort to find a related bulletin, notice, something pursuant to this noise. Nothing found.

Yes, please post. Thanks.

Mike Benvo · 10-19-2012, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racedoc11

The chain Tensioner part number : 11-31-7-839-053 they changed both tensioners. Since then I had no noise issues.

Perfect. It looks like M3PO's repair as lists this PN as a replaced part. Thank you

Only thing that concerns me is that previous posters have had this part replaced and it didn't cure the noise.

So that leaves me thinking that there are multiple parts of this equation.

sunsweet · 10-20-2012, 03:21 PM

Is there any technical read up on the S65 low pressure VANOS system especially the stepper motor/actuator that is replacing the high pressure VANOS (hydraulic piston, piston bearing, helical gear) in the S85 ?

Everything I found online is for high pressurized oil VANOS which is irrelevant.
More knowledge would help categorize noise sources issues.
People have said "it's simple there is nothing to it". It does not appear that way.

10-19-2012, 02:56 PM	#138
Dodge2Dub Captain Drives: E90 M3; Ducati Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 875 iTrader: (6)	...is it just the noise at 23 seconds or does it carry through 24 and 25 seconds? __________________ E90 M3: Some cool stuff...more to come Ducati S2R 1K: Bucket full of mods

10-19-2012, 03:54 PM	#148
Dodge2Dub Captain Drives: E90 M3; Ducati Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 875 iTrader: (6)	Non-technical response: sounds like a hand-over function is taking place between the initial noise and the pressure building swish noise. I'm at 41K, but have been listening for the wrong noise. I'll take a listen tomorrow. __________________ E90 M3: Some cool stuff...more to come Ducati S2R 1K: Bucket full of mods

10-19-2012, 04:12 PM	#150
Mike Benvo BimmerPost Supporting Vendor Drives: BPMSport M3 / 7 Series Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 3,206 iTrader: (6)	Thanks for posting it... Looks like they replaced the gears 1-4 and that solved the issue. I wonder about the other side... What a mess.. __________________ -----\| Like us on Facebook \| Instagram \|\| Tuning Information \| Remote Coding \|----- ----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. \| Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----

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10-20-2012, 03:21 PM	#154
sunsweet Private Drives: '11 E92 M3 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: NC Posts: 60 iTrader: (0)	Is there any technical read up on the S65 low pressure VANOS system especially the stepper motor/actuator that is replacing the high pressure VANOS (hydraulic piston, piston bearing, helical gear) in the S85 ? Everything I found online is for high pressurized oil VANOS which is irrelevant. More knowledge would help categorize noise sources issues. People have said "it's simple there is nothing to it". It does not appear that way.