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      01-17-2007, 10:02 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by dr325i
Big difference --> see above!
When they had respect for us and when we had respect for the rest of the world, they did not mind. Nowdays, no one, absolutely NO ONE wants US troops or US presence in their country. THink about it! That is the whole point of this thread -- things have changed for the good ole USA, and they are much worse nowday, and will just continue to spiral down, unless...
Unless we finally realize we're just the part of this world, and we do not own it.
Then the governments of those nations are free to ask us to leave. Despite your assertion, the German government actually opposes our plan to redeploy a large number of our troops out of Germany and Poland and Hungary have offered to host our forces there.
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      01-17-2007, 10:08 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by ganeil
Then the governments of those nations are free to ask us to leave. Despite your assertion, the German government actually opposes our plan to redeploy a large number of our troops out of Germany and Poland and Hungary have offered to host our forces there.
Again, you're assesing the opinion of 190 people vs. billions. THe leaders may offer that in order to get the money from us, the regular citizens want freedoms. We promote world's freedoms, but we occupied more countries than anyone else. We promote anti-slavery and ethnic discrimination, but we were the ones who practiced it. We don't want the nuclear weapon to impose the threat on the world peace, but we were the only ones to ever use it and instantly wipe off 250k people. We complain when Saddam does not follow the rules of the War and does not respect the Geneva Convention, but then we change the rules and adopt them to our own liking...
We can do all that today, but not for a long...then we will be in trouble. Again, not you or I, but our childrena dn their children...
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      01-17-2007, 10:19 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by dr325i
Again, you're assesing the opinion of 190 people vs. billions. THe leaders may offer that in order to get the money from us, the regular citizens want freedoms. We promote world's freedoms, but we occupied more countries than anyone else. We promote anti-slavery and ethnic discrimination, but we were the ones who practiced it. We don't want the nuclear weapon to impose the threat on the world peace, but we were the only ones to ever use it and instantly wipe off 250k people. We complain when Saddam does not follow the rules of the War and does not respect the Geneva Convention, but then we change the rules and adopt them to our own liking...
We can do all that today, but not for a long...then we will be in trouble. Again, not you or I, but our childrena dn their children...
So, the elected governments of Germany, Japan, ROK, Italy, UK, Iraq, Afghanistan, Belgium, Poland, Hungary, etc... are not legitimate? They are not empowered to make foreign and security policy for their respective nations? What is your proposed alternative? Daily referenda?
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      01-17-2007, 10:49 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by ganeil
So, the elected governments of Germany, Japan, ROK, Italy, UK, Iraq, Afghanistan, Belgium, Poland, Hungary, etc... are not legitimate? They are not empowered to make foreign and security policy for their respective nations? What is your proposed alternative? Daily referenda?
I tell you one important thing, you focus on the completely side thing that has no importance in the discussion...
Of course the elected govenments should be allowed to make those decisions and I definitely do not support daily referenda (if that is the plural).
However, I also do not support "daily" adaptation of the ruled to the USA liking... I do not support this arrogance from us and our govenment. DO you realize that W did not do any diplomatic move since 2000 except in last few weeks when he lost the majority in the house/senat. That is ill. That is what this thread should be about -- how to get this country back on the right track...

The fear that was injected into our lives post 911 is not healthy. Luckily, it is diminishing, but W controlled 300M Americans by raising the "threat levels" every time an important move was to be made -- senate voting, re-election... Nothing is done in 6 years, absolutely NOTHING. Occupied two worthless countries, wasted trillions, wasted lives, economy artificially boosted (no economy can realistically sustain the cost of the wars we have), lost world respects and alies... Remember, I lived in the country that followed the same ignorance -- spending, spending, live with the moto of We're the best, I don't care about the rest. THen, the decades of the artificial freedoms and great lives disappeared, and it was the payback time -- that country is no more...

Yeah, we're the strongest and the best. "Built Ford Tough". Football is the sport -- soccer or waterpolo are for sissies... Those are some of our motos in this country...mighty military. But then, a small country, like North Korea showes their teeth a little bit and the real courage comes out...

As canuck335i said -- no way we (300M) can go against 6.5B people...
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      01-17-2007, 11:35 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
Is it safe to assume that while pulling the stunt on your bike, pictured in your signature, you fell on your head a few times?

Why don't you stick to discussing things you have a clue about?
following your logic, it is safe to assume that the landing of your car in the avatar made you hit the ground so hard that now all the thinking you do comes out of your bottom, too bad we have to read all that bullsh-t you write everyday (I don't really have to but it still is entertaining/surprising in a way).
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      01-17-2007, 11:52 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by canuck335i
following your logic, it is safe to assume that the landing of your car in the avatar made you hit the ground so hard that now all the thinking you do comes out of your bottom, too bad we have to read all that bullsh-t you write everyday (I don't really have to but it still is entertaining/surprising in a way).
I see politics and international relations are not the only subjects that you cannot grasp, human physiology is yet another.

If you can't handle what I write, go back to reading your comic books, little guy.
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      01-17-2007, 11:57 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
DO you realize that W did not do any diplomatic move since 2000 except in last few weeks when he lost the majority in the house/senat. That is ill. That is what this thread should be about -- how to get this country back on the right track...
Where do you get your information? No diplomatic moves since 2000? That is even nuttier than your assertion that the federal gov't controls your property taxes.

Quote:
The fear that was injected into our lives post 911 is not healthy. Luckily, it is diminishing, but W controlled 300M Americans by raising the "threat levels" every time an important move was to be made -- senate voting, re-election... Nothing is done in 6 years, absolutely NOTHING. Occupied two worthless countries, wasted trillions, wasted lives, economy artificially boosted (no economy can realistically sustain the cost of the wars we have), lost world respects and alies... Remember, I lived in the country that followed the same ignorance -- spending, spending, live with the moto of We're the best, I don't care about the rest. THen, the decades of the artificial freedoms and great lives disappeared, and it was the payback time -- that country is no more...
Our current deficit is right around 2-3% of GDP. Your knowledge of economics is appalling.

Our current deficit is low by historical standards.
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      01-17-2007, 01:07 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
Where do you get your information? No diplomatic moves since 2000? That is even nuttier than your assertion that the federal gov't controls your property taxes.



Our current deficit is right around 2-3% of GDP. Your knowledge of economics is appalling.

Our current deficit is low by historical standards.
Current Deficit has nothing to do with the current DEBT of 8+ trillion dollars...

As for the diplomacy -- give me examples, the only one I need to give you is the quote from the man himself: "you're either with us (on this) or you're our enemy..." (paraphrased...)
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      01-17-2007, 01:23 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
I see politics and international relations are not the only subjects that you cannot grasp, human physiology is yet another.

If you can't handle what I write, go back to reading your comic books, little guy.
are you still trying to entertain me, soldier??
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      01-17-2007, 02:16 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
Current Deficit has nothing to do with the current DEBT of 8+ trillion dollars...

As for the diplomacy -- give me examples, the only one I need to give you is the quote from the man himself: "you're either with us (on this) or you're our enemy..." (paraphrased...)

How is this for just the past month and a half:

Jan. 16, 2007 - President Bush Meets with United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon

Jan. 8, 2007 - President Bush Welcomes European Commission President José Barroso to the White House

Jan. 4, 2007 - President Bush Welcomes Chancellor Merkel of Germany to the White House

Dec. 14, 2006 - President Bush Meets with President Yayi of Benin

Dec. 12, 2006 - President Bush Meets with Vice President Hashemi of Iraq

Dec. 10, 2006 - President Bush Appalled by Genocide in Darfur, Urges Support for Darfur Peace Agreement

Dec. 8, 2006 - President Bush meets with President Mbeki of South Africa

Dec. 7, 2006 - President Bush Meets with British Prime Minister Tony Blair

President Bush to Welcome President Boni Yayi of the Republic of Benin to the White House

Dec. 6, 2006 - President Bush Welcomes President Arias of Costa Rica to the White House

Dec. 4, 2006 - President to Host British Prime Minister Tony Blair at the White House
Or maybe this for our chief diplomat:
Trips by Date
Nov. 27-Dec. 1: Europe and the Middle East (12,418 miles)
Nov. 14-21: Vietnam and Indonesia (22,943 miles)
Oct. 17-22: East Asia and Russia (16,860 miles)
Oct. 2-7: Middle East, Europe, Asia (15,002 miles)
Sept. 11: Canada (1,812 miles)
July 23-31: Middle East, Europe, and Asia (24,547 miles)
July 12-17: France, Germany, and Russia With the President (9,632 miles)
June 26-30: Asia and Europe - Islamabad, Kabul, Moscow (14,905 miles)
June 20-22: Europe With the President - Vienna, Budapest (9,131 miles)
May 31-June 2: Europe - Vienna (8,872 miles)
Apr. 24-28 : Europe and Middle East - Athens, Ankara, Baghdad, Sofia (12,756 miles)
Mar. 29-Apr. 4 : Europe and Middle East - Berlin, Paris, Liverpool, London, Baghdad (15,565 miles)
Mar. 21-22 : South America -Nassau (1,904 miles)
Mar 10-19 : South America/Asia/Australia - Santiago, Vina del Mar, Valparaiso, Jakarta, Sydney, Melbourne (31,291 miles)
Feb. 28-Mar. 5 : Asia w/The President - Kabul, New Delhi, Hyderabad, Islamabad (17,132 miles)
Feb. 20-24 : Middle East - Cairo, Riyadh, Beirut, Abu Dhabi (16,144 miles)
Jan. 29-31 : Europe - London (7,298)
Jan. 15-16 : Africa - Monrovia, Dakar (9,391 miles)
And yes we have a debt of $8.6 trillion but we have an annual GDP of $12.3 trillion. Most people with a mortgage wish their debt to income ratio looked like that.
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      01-17-2007, 02:17 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck335i
are you still trying to entertain me, soldier??
Not really, now I wish you would go back to the children's table so the adults can talk about big people things. Run along.
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      01-17-2007, 03:08 PM   #144
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ganiel, you should form an exploratory committee...
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      01-17-2007, 03:44 PM   #145
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Ganeil:

Once again, I am done with this thread. It was my pleasure, but...although you seem like a smart and nice individual, you're heavily brainwashed and "programmed" not to accept any external views from the people with experience. Being twice in Iraq does not mean you have seen it all, actuelly, you have seen the darkest page in our SHORT history only. The world is a beautiful place with beautiful people, not only the USA. I come from a very poor country, with the history of civil wars in past 15 years. My mother (MS degree, 40 years of working experience as a judge and very high gov't positions in the past) is making about $600/month, just to illustrate the differences. Yet, my friends over there live much better (relaxed, more time with the families...) than we do here. You could question why I don't return over there. It is a complicated answer that involves my wife (born and raised American), her parents, my children, my absence from there in past 15 years, my dynamic mentality and urge for new challenges that is missing over there...

So, simply said -- NO, the United States is far, far, far from the best place on Earth. And is getting further from there every minute.

We lack here many important things like medical care, FREE public housing for unfortunate and elderly, etc. Our life goals are too materialistic as compared to other nations. Yes, a lot of them even put more hours into their jobs, but they use their family quality time wisely on the other hand.

There is no simple answer to your last reply. Whatever you listed there has nothing to do with the diplomacy. The real diplomacy would have been if there was no war in Iraq and if people over there were happy. The opposite is what happened over there -- an ultimatum to the country leader and his sons to leave in 48 hrs or... 4-year war with no end, 200,000 - 500,000 dead Iraquis. Similar happened with Iran -- I hope they come up with the line like North Korea did, so Bush does not do another stupid thing before his time is up...

The USA debt is $8.5 trillion (was $5.6 trillion in 2000). The USA GDP is about $13 trillion. That is 65% ratio as of 2006.

Lets look around:

As of 2006:
China -- 16% ratio
Russia -- 9%
Switzerland -- 48%
France -- 65%
Germany -- 67%
Australia -- 16%
India -- 54%
UAE -- 14%
UK -- 43%

So, do not applaud to the Gov't -- they are doing a TERRIBLE job managing this. And if you cannot do better with your finances -- I feel sorry for you, too...

Adios...
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      01-17-2007, 03:46 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
Not really, now I wish you would go back to the children's table so the adults can talk about big people things. Run along.
I dare you to make me run, soldier...

I am just back from the children's table and discussions there where way more relevant than the crap that comes out of that feed hole of yours, Philip Martin (a young Marine) was there and is sharing his real experiences:

"I'm sick and tired of this patriotic, nationalistic and fascist crap. I stood through a memorial service today for a young Marine that was killed in Iraq back in April. During this memorial a number of people spoke about the guy and about his sacrifice for the country. How do you justify 'sacrificing' your life for a war which is not only illegal, but is being prosecuted to the extent where the only thing keeping us there is one man's power, and his ego. A recent Marine Corps intelligence report that was leaked said that the war in the al-Anbar province is unwinnable. It said that there was nothing we could do to win the hearts and minds, or the military operations in that area. So I wonder, why are we still there? Democracy is not forced upon people at gunpoint. It's the result of forward thinking individuals who take the initiative and risks to give their fellow countrymen a better way of life.

When I joined I took an oath. In that oath I swore to protect the Constitution of the United States. I didn't swear to build democracies in countries on the other side of the world under the guise of "national security." I didn't join the military to be part of an Orwellian ("1984") war machine that is in an obligatory war against whoever the state deems the enemy to be so that the populace can be controlled and riled up in a pro-nationalistic frenzy to support any new and oppressive law that will be the key to destroying the enemy. Example given – the Patriot Act. So aptly named, and totally against all that the constitution stands for. President Bush used the reactionary nature of our society to bring our country together and to infuse into the national psyche a need to give up their little-used rights in the hope to make our nation a little safer. The same scare tactics he used to win elections. He drones on and on about how America and the world would be a less safe place if we weren't killing Iraqis, and that we'd have to fight the terrorists at home if we weren't abroad. In our modern day emotive society this strategy (or strategery?) works, or had worked, up until last month's elections.

My point in this; to show that America was never nationalistic. If anything they were Statalistic (giving their allegiance to the state of their residence). This is shown in the fact that the founders created states with fully capable and independent governments and not provinces that were just a division of the federal government. These men believed that America was a place where imperialistic values would be non-existent. Where the people trying to make their lives better by working hard, thinking, inventing and using the free market would tie up so much of normal life that imperialistic colonization and the fighting of wars thousands of miles away for interests that are not our own would be avoided. They believed this expansion of power could be left to the European nations, the England, France and Spain of their time. However this recent, and current influx of nationalistic feeling has created an environment where giving up your rights, going to a foreign country to fight a people who did not ask for us to be there, nor did their leader do anything to warrant us being there, and dying would be considered honorable and heroic. I don't believe it anymore. I don't believe it's right for any American to go along with it anymore. Yes I know that we in the military are bound by the UCMJ and somehow don't fall under the Constitution (the very thing we're suppose to be defending) but sooner or later there is a decision that every American soldier, marine, airmen and seamen makes to allow themselves to be sent to a war that is against every fiber this country was founded on. I know that when April rolls around I will be thinking long and hard on that decision. Even though we in the military are just doing as we're told we still have the moral and ethical obligation to choose to do as we're told, or to say, "No, that isn't right." I believe that if more troopers like me and the professional military, the officers and commanders, start standing up and saying that they won't let themselves or their troops go to this illegal war people will start standing up and realizing what the heck is going on over there.

The sad fact of the matter is that we are not fighting terrorists in Iraq. We are fighting the Iraqi people who feel like a conquered and occupied people. Personally I have a hard time believing that if I was an Iraqi that I wouldn't be doing everything in my power to kill and maim as many Americans as possible. I know that the vast majority of Americans would not be happy with the Canadian government, or any other foreign government, liberating us from the clutches of George W. Bush, even though a large number of us would like that, and forcing us to accept their system of government. Would not millions of Americans rise up and fight back? Would you not rise up to protect and defend your house and your neighborhood if someone invaded your country? But we send thousands of troops to a foreign country to do just that. How is it moral to fight a people who are just trying to defend their homes and families? I think next time I go to Iraq perhaps I should wear a bright red coat and carry a Brown Bess instead of my digitalized utilities and M16.

Notice I never once used the word homeland in any of this. I have a secondary point I want to bring up now. Never once was the term homeland ever used to describe the country of America until Mr. Bush began the department of homeland security after the 9/11 attacks. Taking a 20th century history class will teach us that the most notable countries in the last century that referred to their country in this way were Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. Hitler used the term fatherland to drum up support, nationalistic support, for his growing war machine. He used the nationalism he created in the minds of the Germans to justify the sacrifice of their livelihood to build the war machine to get back their power from the oppressive restrictions the English and French had put on them at Versailles. This is the same feeling that has been virulently infecting the American psyche in the last hundred years. This is the same feeling that consoles a mother after her son is killed in an attempt to prosecute an aggressor's war 10,000 miles away. It's also known as Patriotism these days, but I say, "No more." No more nationalistic inanity, no more passing it off as patriotism. Patriotism is learning, and educating oneself to understand what their country really stands for.

I heard a lot during the memorial service about how the dead Marine did so much good for others and how his helping others was like a little microcosm of America helping because we have the power to do so. Well if we have the power to help people why aren't we helping in Darfur where hundreds of thousands of people have died in the last 10 years. Saddam was convicted and sentenced to death for killing 143 Shiites who conspired to assassinate him. (I know all you "patriotic" Americans would be calling for the heads of anyone who conspired to assassinate supreme leader Bush). And yet we spend upwards of 1 trillion dollars and nearing 3,000 lives to help these Iraqis when they don't even want us there. Not to mention we don't have the legal justification to be there. I guess we should wait around for the omnipotent W Bush to decide who we should use our superpowerdom to help next. It's about time to throw him and the rest of the fascists out. Moreover it's about time to start educating Americans about their past and history, and letting them know that imperialistic leaders are not what the founders of this great country wanted."
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      01-17-2007, 05:01 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
Ganeil:

Once again, I am done with this thread. It was my pleasure, but...although you seem like a smart and nice individual, you're heavily brainwashed and "programmed" not to accept any external views from the people with experience. Being twice in Iraq does not mean you have seen it all, actuelly, you have seen the darkest page in our SHORT history only. The world is a beautiful place with beautiful people, not only the USA. I come from a very poor country, with the history of civil wars in past 15 years. My mother (MS degree, 40 years of working experience as a judge and very high gov't positions in the past) is making about $600/month, just to illustrate the differences. Yet, my friends over there live much better (relaxed, more time with the families...) than we do here. You could question why I don't return over there. It is a complicated answer that involves my wife (born and raised American), her parents, my children, my absence from there in past 15 years, my dynamic mentality and urge for new challenges that is missing over there...

So, simply said -- NO, the United States is far, far, far from the best place on Earth. And is getting further from there every minute.

We lack here many important things like medical care, FREE public housing for unfortunate and elderly, etc. Our life goals are too materialistic as compared to other nations. Yes, a lot of them even put more hours into their jobs, but they use their family quality time wisely on the other hand.

There is no simple answer to your last reply. Whatever you listed there has nothing to do with the diplomacy. The real diplomacy would have been if there was no war in Iraq and if people over there were happy. The opposite is what happened over there -- an ultimatum to the country leader and his sons to leave in 48 hrs or... 4-year war with no end, 200,000 - 500,000 dead Iraquis. Similar happened with Iran -- I hope they come up with the line like North Korea did, so Bush does not do another stupid thing before his time is up...

The USA debt is $8.5 trillion (was $5.6 trillion in 2000). The USA GDP is about $13 trillion. That is 65% ratio as of 2006.

Lets look around:

As of 2006:
China -- 16% ratio
Russia -- 9%
Switzerland -- 48%
France -- 65%
Germany -- 67%
Australia -- 16%
India -- 54%
UAE -- 14%
UK -- 43%

So, do not applaud to the Gov't -- they are doing a TERRIBLE job managing this. And if you cannot do better with your finances -- I feel sorry for you, too...

Adios...
I believe you are the one brainwashed. You continue to believe whatever nonsense is spouted as long as it is anti-Bush.

If you believe that a nation is better when it's government confiscates one person's property or income to give to another person in the form of health care or housing, then I am happy that you are not happy here. That is socialism and I want no part of it.

FWIW, my travel is not limited to Iraq but to many nations around the world. I am happy to say that after a few weeks or so I am happy to get back to the USA.
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      01-17-2007, 05:18 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck335i
I dare you to make me run, soldier...

I am just back from the children's table and discussions there where way more relevant than the crap that comes out of that feed hole of yours, Philip Martin (a young Marine) was there and is sharing his real experiences:
Don't get snippy with me little boy.

This Marine has a lot to learn.

The war is not illegal.

One intelligence report should not considered by anyone to be definitive.

The oath he took also required him to obey the orders of the President of the United States and the officers appointed over him.

The founders of this country did not create the states, the states pre-existed and formed the federal government.

If he thinks this nation was never expansionist, he needs to ask himself how thirteen small east coast colonies came to span a continent.

I am sure the people of Germany, Italy, and Japan would differ with his assertion that democracy cannot be forced on people.

If he met no Iraqis that were happy to have us there, he obviously did not meet many Kurds or marsh Arabs.

I feel sorry for that Marine, he lost some friends and is having a hard time dealing with it. That is something I understand well. He should not diminish his friends death by diminishing what he was fighting for.

- Semper Fi
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      01-17-2007, 07:33 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
I believe you are the one brainwashed. You continue to believe whatever nonsense is spouted as long as it is anti-Bush.

If you believe that a nation is better when it's government confiscates one person's property or income to give to another person in the form of health care or housing, then I am happy that you are not happy here. That is socialism and I want no part of it.

FWIW, my travel is not limited to Iraq but to many nations around the world. I am happy to say that after a few weeks or so I am happy to get back to the USA.
All numbers I gave you are facts...has nothing to do with Bush or with brainwashing...

And that thing with confiscating the property is a pure propaganda and the very brainwashing I was talking about...

You have absolutely no clue what is out there, but that is OK...not everyone deserves to experience it...
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      01-17-2007, 07:44 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by dr325i
All numbers I gave you are facts...has nothing to do with Bush or with brainwashing...

And that thing with confiscating the property is a pure propaganda and the very brainwashing I was talking about...

You have absolutely no clue what is out there, but that is OK...not everyone deserves to experience it...
I did not dispute your numbers. They reflect the point I was making, our national debt is not outside the norm for a post-industrial economy.

Health care and housing are not free. If the person obtaining either is not the person paying for it then someone else is. If that other person did not voluntarily pay for the doctor's visit or house, then the money used to pay for it was taken from him without his consent. In the English language we call that confiscating.

By rough count I have spent time in about 16 different countries. I have seen plenty.
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      01-17-2007, 08:10 PM   #151
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I did not dispute your numbers. They reflect the point I was making, our national debt is not outside the norm for a post-industrial economy.

Health care and housing are not free. If the person obtaining either is not the person paying for it then someone else is. If that other person did not voluntarily pay for the doctor's visit or house, then the money used to pay for it was taken from him without his consent. In the English language we call that confiscating.
I have to aggree on these counts, 100%.
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      01-17-2007, 08:16 PM   #152
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Don't get snippy with me little boy.

refreshing, last time I was called this way is maybe 35 years ago, thanks.
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      01-17-2007, 08:28 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
I did not dispute your numbers. They reflect the point I was making, our national debt is not outside the norm for a post-industrial economy.

Health care and housing are not free. If the person obtaining either is not the person paying for it then someone else is. If that other person did not voluntarily pay for the doctor's visit or house, then the money used to pay for it was taken from him without his consent. In the English language we call that confiscating.

By rough count I have spent time in about 16 different countries. I have seen plenty.
So, our ratio is 65%, China's 15%, Australia 15%, UK 45% and we all fall in the same category...
I don't get it...
Again...we and them all paid taxes...they get real service, you and I get NOTHING. In TX for example, they take 3% property tax, 2.5% for schools. The schools SUCKKKK big time here...so, who's confiscating here? Who's crazy here?
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      01-17-2007, 08:33 PM   #154
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By rough count I have spent time in about 16 different countries. I have seen plenty.
you should add "IMHO" to this, because that is what it is, your perception of what you saw...

I've been to as many country as you, served for the UN in 5 of them and my views are quite different as yours, still, I am not trying to force them to others that I have no clue of who they are, especially on the internet.
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