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      01-11-2007, 11:48 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by dr325i
You're kidding, right??? You need the evidence to see that the life for an ordinary Iraqi person is much worse now than 5 years ago???
I was referring more to the claim that the war is about oil/money but according to opinion polls, most Iraqis have an optimistic outlook for themselves and their country. The violence in Iraq is largely confined to al Anbar province and Baghdad. The Kurds in the north and Marsh Arabs in the south are definitely better off today.

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I assume you're OK with the reality that the other way around is a completely normal thing for the US Government???
Huh?

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LEADERS!!! I would love to see leaders prosecuted also...since we have pushed for the same all around the world. Otherwise, this world-police-politics will never stop.
Don't you think actual complicity is required before prosecution? Saddam was convicted of ordering the massacre. No one has claimed the President or SecDef ordered the prison guards to behave as they did.
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      01-11-2007, 11:51 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by dr325i
I guess, Osama would be justified if he slammed into the CNN building instead of the towers.

That is such crap you just said.

And what about the freedom of speach we promote here in this country??? Because the TV station backed Milosevic, we had the right to bomb it and kill its civilian employees???

In that case...I'd hate to work for FOX...
Using civilian airliners filled with non-combatants is illegitimate no matter the target.

Why would he attack CNN? They seem to be his best ally here.
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      01-11-2007, 12:14 PM   #91
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ganeil, they want to send more troops to Iraq. Please go there and fight.
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      01-11-2007, 12:15 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by La Verdad
ganeil, they want to send more troops to Iraq. Please go there and fight.
Been there, done that... twice. Would go back tomorrow if they would let me.
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      01-11-2007, 12:29 PM   #93
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I have a feeling that you would never consider reading these books, but I will list some anyways. Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance (The American Empire Project) - Noam Chomsky (New York Times has listed him as the most important intellectual alive), Chomsky also has a great book entitled "Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy"

"Noam Chomsky is considered the father of modern linguistics. In this richly detailed criticism of American foreign policy, he seeks to redefine many of the terms commonly used in the ongoing American war on terrorism. Surveying U.S. actions in Cuba, Nicaragua, Turkey, the Far East and elsewhere over the past half a century along with the modern American war in Iraq, Chomsky indicates that America is just as much a terrorist state as any other government or rogue organization. George W. Bush's 2003 invasion of Iraq drew worldwide criticism, in part because it seemed to present a new philosophy of pre-emptive war and an appearance of global empire building. But according to Chomsky, such has been the operating philosophy of American foreign policy for decades. Opponents of the Bush administration's tactics consistently point out how the American government supported Saddam Hussein for many years prior to the 1990 invasion of Kuwait (pictures of Donald Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand are easy to come by) as a means of pointing out how the United States is happy to fund despots when it's in American interests. But Chomsky, armed with extensive historical notation, takes this notion further, arguing how the repression of other nations' citizenry is, in fact, the very reason Americans support certain foreign leaders. The charges made throughout the book are severe, as are the dire consequences he posits if current trends are not reversed, and Chomsky is no more likely to make friends or gain supporters from the mainstream now than he's ever been. But Hegemony or Survival is relatively dispassionate. Instead of relying on camp or shock value or personal attacks as some of his contemporaries have done, Chomsky drives his well-supported points steadily forward in an earnest and highly readable style."

Also consider reading "Iraq and the International Oil System: Why America Went to War in the Gulf" by Stephen C. Pelletière (who was the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq throughout the Iran-Iraq War)
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      01-11-2007, 01:52 PM   #94
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and just to put one final nail into the coffin as to why bush should stand trail...drum roll please...go this thanks to noflash

* Attacked and took over two countries.
* Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury.
* Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history.
* Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.
* Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.
* First president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.
* First president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.
* First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history.
* After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in US history.
* Set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips than any other president in US history.
* In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job.
*Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history.
* Set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12 month period.
* Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.
* Set the record for the least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television.
* Signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any president in US history.
* Presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.
* Presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.
* Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.
* Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.
* Dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.
* My presidency is the most secretive and un-accountable of any in US history.
* Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (the 'poorest' multi-millionaire, Condoleeza Rice has an Exxon oil tanker named after her).
* First president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt.
* Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world.
* First president in US history to order a US attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation.
* Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.
* Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in US history.
* First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the human rights commission.
* First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the elections monitoring board.
* Removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.
* Rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.
* Withdrew from the World Court of Law.
* Refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.
* First president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 US elections).
* All-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.
* My biggest life-time campaign contributor presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).
* Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.
* First president in US history to unilaterally attack a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community.
* First president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)
* First US president to establish a secret shadow government.
* Took the biggest world sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).
* With a policy of 'dis-engagement' created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years.
* First US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.
* First US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than their immediate neighbor, North Korea.
* Changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.
* Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts.
* Failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive'.
* Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capital building. After 18 months I have no leads and zero suspects.
* In the 18 months following the 911 attacks I have successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States.
* Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.
* In a little over two years created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided the US has ever been since the civil war.
* Entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.
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      01-11-2007, 02:05 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by La Verdad
I have a feeling that you would never consider reading these books, but I will list some anyways. Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance (The American Empire Project) - Noam Chomsky (New York Times has listed him as the most important intellectual alive), Chomsky also has a great book entitled "Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy"
I did force my through Failed States and I must say that I was not impressed. The picture Chomsky paints of this country simple lacks context.

American abuses in Central America are highlighted repeatedly but absolutely no mention is made of the Marshall Plan. While he delights in his comparisons of the current administration's domestic response to 9/11 to the policies of Hitler or Stalin, he fails to note that he is doing so from a plush office on the Charles River rather than the camp at Treblinka or the Soviet Gulag.

Chomsky in my humble opinion is nothing more than an Ivy League demagogue.
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      01-11-2007, 02:11 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by La Verdad
and just to put one final nail into the coffin as to why bush should stand trail...drum roll please...go this thanks to noflash
Interesting but completely misleading and inaccurate list you have there.

One question, where are the CRIMES?
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      01-11-2007, 02:26 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Verdad
and just to put one final nail into the coffin as to why bush should stand trail...drum roll please...go this thanks to noflash...
Dude, not to harp on the fact that you brought up that you graduated from law school, but if these are the types of arguments you are going to use to put someone on trial, you might want to look for a side job.
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      01-11-2007, 02:43 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
American abuses in Central America are highlighted repeatedly but absolutely no mention is made of the Marshall Plan. While he delights in his comparisons of the current administration's domestic response to 9/11 to the policies of Hitler or Stalin, he fails to note that he is doing so from a plush office on the Charles River rather than the camp at Treblinka or the Soviet Gulag.
It is totally irrelevant whether or not his office is 'plush' or not...the focus is on his critiques and writing. It is unfortunate that you disagree with his works; however, I understand that most veterans don't like negative critiques involving the armed services. History is the polemics of the victor. That is why is it useful to read books by writers like Chomsky, preciously because you actually learn what 'really' happened and not the 8th grade Eurocentric crap they feed most Americans in school. For all the arguing that we have been doing, I haven’t asked you if you believe in the war in Iraq? If so, why? I personally never once felt threatened by Saddam and Iraq. A simplified understanding of the war is that it was justified under false pretense. (i.e. Saddam is going to attack America) Or maybe it was the fact that Saddam supposedly had WMD…not sure where those went. There are many countries that have WMD, like chemical weapons that are not friends of America. I spoke earlier of North Korea blowing nukes up and declaring it. Surely that warrants intervention?? I also have spoken a lot about Oil and how it IMO is the driving force behind this war. Do you disagree? Putting the whole ‘bush should stand trail thing aside’ what are your opinions on these other topics? I watched his speech last night and thought it was horrible. The Iraq Study Group has advised not to send in more troops. I personally think it will only make matters worse.
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      01-11-2007, 03:44 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by CA06
Dude, not to harp on the fact that you brought up that you graduated from law school, but if these are the types of arguments you are going to use to put someone on trial, you might want to look for a side job.
OK, I agree that not all 50 points he listed constitute reason for a trial. Now, if you give me 1/5th (10) examples of something good Bus did in last 6 years...actually, lets start with 5 good things, I may re-think my approach.

He's a freiken idiot and looser, that dragged this country to the bottom and great people that live in here... And now he admits he's short on military and expects that any normal person will sign up???

Shame, shame, I don't care if he's republican or a democrat, makes no difference to me. I would vote fo McCain no problem if needed. But to do this to (once great) USA and to the World, that is inexcusable. Those points that La Verdad made should make people in this country demand an answer!
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      01-11-2007, 03:50 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by La Verdad
and just to put one final nail into the coffin as to why bush should stand trail...drum roll please...go this thanks to noflash
just about the dumbest pile of crap i've ever read
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      01-11-2007, 03:53 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by La Verdad
It is totally irrelevant whether or not his office is 'plush' or not...the focus is on his critiques and writing.
Of course it is relevant. Would The Gulag Archipelago have had the impact it did if Solzhenitsyn had been sipping cocktails with the elites of the Soviet Union? I think not. It also goes to the intellectual shallowness of his comparisons. If the situation were actually as bad as he insinuates, he would not be in a plush office criticizing it. He would be in exile or prison.

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It is unfortunate that you disagree with his works; however, I understand that most veterans don't like negative critiques involving the armed services. History is the polemics of the victor. That is why is it useful to read books by writers like Chomsky, preciously because you actually learn what 'really' happened and not the 8th grade Eurocentric crap they feed most Americans in school.
I actually found military officers to be some of the most introspective and self-critiquing group of professionals I have ever met. Every operation, whether in training or combat, is followed by an after action review where the conduct of the operation is dissected and flaws and mistakes are highlighted so they will not happen again.

Of course for military officers this critique is necessary for self preservation because their actions have immediate and real consequences for themselves and others. Can't say the for academics like Chomsky. They can spout all the nonsense they want because there are no real consequences when they are wrong. It is easy for them to sit inside the ivy covered walls and despair at how the world does not work the way they want. they are not required to deal with the world the way it actually is. They do not have to make timely decisions that have far reaching implications with perhaps not all the information they would like. They do not have to choose between two bad options. In short, it is easy for Chomsky to criticize the US without placing the role the US plays in the world in context or exploring the options available to the leaders of country because he does not have to live within that context.

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For all the arguing that we have been doing, I haven’t asked you if you believe in the war in Iraq? If so, why? I personally never once felt threatened by Saddam and Iraq. A simplified understanding of the war is that it was justified under false pretense. (i.e. Saddam is going to attack America) Or maybe it was the fact that Saddam supposedly had WMD…not sure where those went. There are many countries that have WMD, like chemical weapons that are not friends of America. I spoke earlier of North Korea blowing nukes up and declaring it. Surely that warrants intervention?? I also have spoken a lot about Oil and how it IMO is the driving force behind this war. Do you disagree? Putting the whole ‘bush should stand trail thing aside’ what are your opinions on these other topics? I watched his speech last night and thought it was horrible. The Iraq Study Group has advised not to send in more troops. I personally think it will only make matters worse.
I think the decision made to invade Iraq was the right one to make with the information available at the time. Given what we know now, do I think it should have been done differently? Yes, but unfortunately that is not an option. The decision was made and was widely supported throughout the Congress and the country. The option now should be how to succeed in what we started. Looking back at decisions already made and the info that went into those decisions can wait until we have accomplished what we set out to do.

I have simple questions, if it was about the oil, why did we just not stay in southern Iraq in 1991? Why not just keep Kuwait when we liberated it? Why did we bother going north of the oil fields this time? Would have been much simpler to occupy Kuwait or southern Iraq than what we did?
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      01-11-2007, 04:28 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by dr325i
... Now, if you give me 1/5th (10) examples of something good Bus did in last 6 years...actually, lets start with 5 good things, I may re-think my approach...
So it's clear that you hate Bush, and no matter what I list you'll have some snide remark. But since you asked. This is IMO:

1. He has protected our rearends from another attack on our soil since 9/11 by taking the fight to the enemy, implemented a Home Land Security office and eliminated Afghanistan's Taliban Regime which is no longer in power.
2. Tax cuts - rebounded an inherited economy that was sliding into a recession.
3. Partial Birth Abortion Ban.
4. Appointed judges to the Supreme Court that balances the way the Constitution suppose to be interpreted.
5. Stands by and supports the Defense of Marriage Act.
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      01-11-2007, 05:03 PM   #103
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So it's clear that you hate Bush, and no matter what I list you'll have some snide remark. But since you asked. This is IMO:

1. He has protected our rearends from another attack on our soil since 9/11 by taking the fight to the enemy, implemented a Home Land Security office and eliminated Afghanistan's Taliban Regime which is no longer in power.
2. Tax cuts - rebounded an inherited economy that was sliding into a recession.
3. Partial Birth Abortion Ban.
4. Appointed judges to the Supreme Court that balances the way the Constitution suppose to be interpreted.
5. Stands by and supports the Defense of Marriage Act.
I disagree with 4 of the above:

1) He delayed it at first, not it is imminent it will happen after what he did in the world. Heck, if he had another term to do, France and Germany would organize another 9-11... Taliban regime is getting back into the power and is in much better position than it was a year ago, lets say. ANd the Taliban regime is the least of our problems!

2) That is what you hear, but do you really see any tax cuts??? I have never seen this much taxes taken away from me -- property increased, Income increased... Also, you hear about the great economy -- I don't see it at all, prices are surging up, and my salary is the same...I actually feel poorer than a year ago.

3) Police State -- people should have the right to do what they think is the best in that case, not what a guy that should have been aborted in the first place tells them.

5) Again, the police state...if the church is against it, they should be allowed to marry at the county only. He is restricting people's freedoms every day...
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      01-11-2007, 05:22 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by dr325i
I disagree with 4 of the above:

1) He delayed it at first, not it is imminent it will happen after what he did in the world. Heck, if he had another term to do, France and Germany would organize another 9-11... Taliban regime is getting back into the power and is in much better position than it was a year ago, lets say. ANd the Taliban regime is the least of our problems!

2) That is what you hear, but do you really see any tax cuts??? I have never seen this much taxes taken away from me -- property increased, Income increased... Also, you hear about the great economy -- I don't see it at all, prices are surging up, and my salary is the same...I actually feel poorer than a year ago.

3) Police State -- people should have the right to do what they think is the best in that case, not what a guy that should have been aborted in the first place tells them.

5) Again, the police state...if the church is against it, they should be allowed to marry at the county only. He is restricting people's freedoms every day...
1. You and I are on opposite sides of the spectrum on this. I truly cannot believe you can think this way.

2. Yes, I have seen a break from the tax cut. However, I do agree with you that salaries haven't grown much for folks, amount of taxes that get taken out are extremely high and we are getting to that time of year again that I hate the most, a visit to the tax man! But, I cannot say that this is a product of George W. Bush.

3. & 5. Freedom does not come without boundaries, and a police state this is not.
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      01-11-2007, 05:31 PM   #105
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1. You and I are on opposite sides of the spectrum on this. I truly cannot believe you can think this way.

2. Yes, I have seen a break from the tax cut. However, I do agree with you that salaries haven't grown much for folks, amount of taxes that get taken out are extremely high and we are getting to that time of year again that I hate the most, a visit to the tax man! But, I cannot say that this is a product of George W. Bush.

3. & 5. Freedom does not come without boundaries, and a police state this is not.
I mean...we could poll the US, and the non-US people (two separate polls) here on the board (nice sampling size) on the whole W thing and see what they think Maybe I am the one crazy here... JK

On the serious side...for 3 & 5, I thought we had the freedom and we're spreading it all around the world???

On 2, well...if you're in the upper income bracket, yes, you felt the tax cuts...

on 1... I hope I am very wrong, but...I am probably not...
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      01-11-2007, 07:25 PM   #106
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On 2, well...if you're in the upper income bracket, yes, you felt the tax cuts...
Everyone who pays federal income tax got a tax cut. If you did not feel it, could be because you don't pay much in federal income tax to begin with.
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      01-11-2007, 07:32 PM   #107
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Everyone who pays federal income tax got a tax cut. If you did not feel it, could be because you don't pay much in federal income tax to begin with.
I am not talking one little financial break -- look at overall picture -- maybe you're right and the percentage for fed taxes went down. But the property taxes, school fees, food, gas, everything else went tramendeously up since 2000. The salary increase does not keep up with it -- hence inflation. He, and his buddies also lie to us about the inflation figures, btw...
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      01-11-2007, 07:36 PM   #108
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I have simple questions, if it was about the oil, why did we just not stay in southern Iraq in 1991? Why not just keep Kuwait when we liberated it? Why did we bother going north of the oil fields this time? Would have been much simpler to occupy Kuwait or southern Iraq than what we did?
I missed this one...
Because the dumb ass thought the "mission was over" in 2003 and did his little thing with the AC carrier...
If he's so concerned about (as he said):
1) our safety
2) democracy and people of other countries with dictators
why doesn't he attack now Iran, N Korea, Somalia (ah, wait, he did a little bit), Sudan, and many more that have seen much worse conditions than people under Saddam in the 1990s, and are definitely more viable threat to us...
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      01-11-2007, 07:38 PM   #109
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I am not talking one little financial break -- look at overall picture -- maybe you're right and the percentage for fed taxes went down. But the property taxes, school fees, food, gas, everything else went tramendeously up since 2000. The salary increase does not keep up with it -- hence inflation. He, and his buddies also lie to us about the inflation figures, btw...
I am afraid the President has little control over your property taxes or school fees.

Your assertion that inflation is up dramatically is easily disproved (again), take a look at the bond market.
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      01-11-2007, 10:31 PM   #110
dr335is
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
I am afraid the President has little control over your property taxes or school fees.

.
Ah, OK, it is not all connected...that is fine, believe what you will...
I don't care about the Bond Markets and numbers and media and crap.

I know that education went up 15%, milk went up 10%, gas is up 50%, bread is up 10%, cheese is up 10%, and my salary is up 5% in two years... And I know a ton of people that have not seen a raise since Clinton era...

I don't care that rich get tax breaks and more money and their bonds get better... THe middle class is suffering...
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