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      01-10-2007, 10:12 PM   #67
La Verdad
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The point is, Iraq is much worse off now than it ever was before the war. The war is charade, carefully packaged and sold to the American people as a 'liberation' war. BUT it really is just about money (oil). There are alot of well informed writers who have written extensively on how the war is profit driven. President Clinton was impeached for a blowjob...a blowjob. President Bush gets to write blank checks, both monetarily and with soldiers lives to further American imperialism and greed. The war in Iraq is unconstitutional according to the United Nations too. Prisoner abuse is against the Geneva Convention. The information YOU have been fed is inaccurate. Fox News and Bill O'Reilly are not credible sources for information related to world events and U.S. foreign policy.(or many other American media outlets for that matter) In response to what you have said about cluster bombs not be illegal, think about this.

"The first is that the bombs, being widely dispersed, cannot be accurately targeted. The second is that many of them don't detonate when they hit the ground. Officially, cluster bombs have a failure rate of between 5 and 7%. In reality it's much higher. Between 20 and 25% of the cluster munitions NATO forces dropped during the Kosovo conflict failed to go off when they landed(2). The failure rate of the bombs dropped by the US in Indo-China was roughly 30%(3). 40% of the cluster bombs Israel scattered over Lebanon did not detonate(4).

The unexploded bombs then sit and wait to be defused - leg by human leg. They are as devastating to civilian populations as landmines, or possibly worse, because far more of them have been dropped. Even 30 years or more after they land - as the people of Vietnam and Laos know - they can still be detonated by the slightest concussion."

Since I am not sure if you have ever read the Geneva Convention, I will repeat for arguments sake a little part of it.

Protocol I, Article 85, Section 3 of the Geneva Convention: "An indiscriminate attack affecting the civilian population or civilian objects and resulting in excessive loss of life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects is a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions."

But HEY, what do rules mean anyway?? United Nations? International law?? World Opinion?? Who cares? Certainly not the President and certainly not you.
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      01-10-2007, 10:22 PM   #68
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Your good at stating how well the U.S. is at not following the Geneva Convention, what do you think about the insurgents that are purposely targeting civilians, cutting people's heads off, hanging bodies on a bridges, etc. Could you go over there and explain the rules to them, please.
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      01-10-2007, 10:31 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil

Why are you obsessed with what people in other countries think about us?

maybe because;


U.S. population: 300,948,232

World population: 6,569,023,523


also because it is a matter of
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      01-10-2007, 10:39 PM   #70
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ohhhh...so because they aren't 'following' the rules, it allows the United States to do the same?? Hmmm having graduated from law school, I am pretty sure that argument would never work. Maybe you know better? The war in Iraq was sold on lies. North Korea is throwing the fact that they have nuclear weapons in the United States face, but you know what? The United States doesn't care because there is no OIL. It always amazes me that people can be led by blind faith so much that logic and reason take the back seat so fast.

This whole conversation has made me realize why I usually just talk cars on this forum. It really bothered me when I was reading how people were laughing at someone's execution. I have unfortunately been present during an execution, and one thing is very clear to me from that experience, there is NOTHING funny about someone dying. Especially when they are forced to die. I am not excusing Saddam in anyway, only attempting to show how the President of the United States, has repeatedly lied and spun the truth so that profit can be made from misery.

I would bet my BMW and all the money I have ever made that Iraq will fall into civil war and become far more unstable than when Saddam was in power. Fundamental Islam will take root and more people will suffer than with Saddam. (Saddam was a secular leader) Where was the United States in Rwanda? (Only the United Nations was there) Where is the United States in Darfur? Oh because there are no viable resources to steal there, hence the American absence. So when America, the 'moral compass' of the world, decides to invade another country in order to 'liberate' it's people, I hope that it actually goes to a country that needs liberation next time.
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      01-10-2007, 10:54 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
The President NEVER (I defy you to show me on reference otherwise) said or implied that Iraq was connected to 9/11.
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT?????????????????
Now you lost my respect completely...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
The US has not used any weapons that are banned by international law. (Cluster bombs, depleted uranium, etc... are NOT banned by any treaty to which the US is a signatory.)
Cluster bombs and Depl. Uranium weapon is urged not to be used and banned for use in the cities. My cousin has found many pieces of cluster bombs in the city of Nish, Serbia...

Now, I would put him on trial as every other leader was put on trial -- for killing innocent people (with NO reason). Milosevic was there for so called ethnic cleansing. Saddam was there for similar things, Gotovina is there for killing civilians... Bush ordered all of the attacs in Iraq and his forces killed innocent civilians -- so called Colleteral Damage. I am sure Bush did not tell his forces to kill the civilians, but at the same time I am sure Milosevic did not order all that he was occused for.
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      01-10-2007, 10:57 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
Why are you obsessed with what people in other countries think about us?



Remember if the whole world would turn back on us -- we're done. They can function without us, we cannot without them. No power in history laste forever, therefore the US power will not either. Then, the payback time -- debts, arrogance...you and I will not see it, but our kids...God help them...
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      01-10-2007, 11:37 PM   #73
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[quote=La Verdad]ohhhh...so because they aren't 'following' the rules, it allows the United States to do the same?? QUOTE]

This has got to be the funniest statement that I've seen yet. You put on a big show about rules and this is the best you have. Come on, I expected a better response than that. Especially coming from someone that graduated from law school.
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      01-10-2007, 11:38 PM   #74
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[quote=CA06]
Quote:
Originally Posted by La Verdad
ohhhh...so because they aren't 'following' the rules, it allows the United States to do the same?? QUOTE]

This has got to be the funniest statement that I've seen yet. You put on a big show about rules and this is the best you have. Come on, I expected a better response than that. Especially coming from someone that graduated from law school.
Now read your own response and tell us what is the point of that???
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      01-10-2007, 11:45 PM   #75
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^ Like most of your own post it's all one sided.
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      01-10-2007, 11:50 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CA06
^ Like most of your own post it's all one sided.
Ah, great then...When talking about W, my responses are always one-sided (since nothing good came from him so far). If you want to talk about Clinton, it would probably be about 50/50.
Good night...
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      01-11-2007, 02:32 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
Remember if the whole world would turn back on us -- we're done. They can function without us, we cannot without them. No power in history laste forever, therefore the US power will not either. Then, the payback time -- debts, arrogance...you and I will not see it, but our kids...God help them...
this guy actually gets it!!!

if the world sneezes, america will catch a cold... and the same goes for any other nation
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      01-11-2007, 08:56 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Verdad
The point is, Iraq is much worse off now than it ever was before the war. The war is charade, carefully packaged and sold to the American people as a 'liberation' war. BUT it really is just about money (oil). There are alot of well informed writers who have written extensively on how the war is profit driven.
Do you have any actual evidence to support this contention? I am sure the law school you went to taught you about substantiating evidence, or did you miss that day?

Quote:
President Clinton was impeached for a blowjob...a blowjob.
President Clinton was impeached for lying to a federal grand jury. Did you also miss the class on perjury and obstruction of justice?

Quote:
The war in Iraq is unconstitutional according to the United Nations too.
Since when did the UN become an arbiter of the US Constitution? Didn't make it to the international law classes either?

Quote:
Prisoner abuse is against the Geneva Convention.
I believe those responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib have been prosecuted.

Quote:
Since I am not sure if you have ever read the Geneva Convention, I will repeat for arguments sake a little part of it.

Protocol I, Article 85, Section 3 of the Geneva Convention: "An indiscriminate attack affecting the civilian population or civilian objects and resulting in excessive loss of life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects is a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions."

But HEY, what do rules mean anyway?? United Nations? International law?? World Opinion?? Who cares? Certainly not the President and certainly not you.
I have read the Geneva Conventions and unless you can cite an instance where US Forces have indiscriminately targeted civilians then your citation is pointless. The US takes great care to avoid civilian causalities often to the endangerment of our own forces.
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      01-11-2007, 09:02 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck335i
maybe because;


U.S. population: 300,948,232

World population: 6,569,023,523


also because it is a matter of
So, by your logic, Canada should follow wherever the US leads.

U.S. population: 300,948,232

Canada population: 32,797,798
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      01-11-2007, 09:45 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
So, by your logic, Canada should follow wherever the US leads.

U.S. population: 300,948,232

Canada population: 32,797,798


that logic is already in force, when USA sneeze, Canada gets the cold...
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      01-11-2007, 11:33 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
I have read the Geneva Conventions and unless you can cite an instance where US Forces have indiscriminately targeted civilians then your citation is pointless. The US takes great care to avoid civilian causalities often to the endangerment of our own forces.
Belgrade, Serbia, April 17, 1999 -- US Aircraft (part of NATO) bombed TVB station in the Downtown of Belgrade, and killed 19 workers (night shift). It is obvious that it was not a military installation (target), and there was absolutely no threat to the US forces from that point or anywhere in the radius of 5 miles from there.
It was the State run TV Station, with only civilians employed.

No one has ever been brought to justice for breaching Geneva convention there.
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      01-11-2007, 11:33 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck335i
that logic is already in force, when USA sneeze, Canada gets the cold...
But Canada does not base it foreign or domestic policy on what public opinion in the US is.
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      01-11-2007, 11:34 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
So, by your logic, Canada should follow wherever the US leads.

U.S. population: 300,948,232

Canada population: 32,797,798
I ti s not logic buddy, it is the reality!
Do you want your kids/grandkids to live in isolation?
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      01-11-2007, 11:35 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
Belgrade, Serbia, April 17, 1999 -- US Aircraft (part of NATO) bombed TVB station in the Downtown of Belgrade, and killed 19 workers (night shift). It is obvious that it was not a military installation (target), and there was absolutely no threat to the US forces from that point or anywhere in the radius of 5 miles from there.
It was the State run TV Station, with only civilians employed.

No one has ever been brought to justice for breaching Geneva convention there.

FYI, television stations, especially those state run, are a legitimate military target. They are part of a nation's command, control, and communication system.
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      01-11-2007, 11:38 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by ganeil
Do you have any actual evidence to support this contention? I am sure the law school you went to taught you about substantiating evidence, or did you miss that day?
You're kidding, right??? You need the evidence to see that the life for an ordinary Iraqi person is much worse now than 5 years ago???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
Since when did the UN become an arbiter of the US Constitution? Didn't make it to the international law classes either?
I assume you're OK with the reality that the other way around is a completely normal thing for the US Government???


Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
I believe those responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib have been prosecuted.
LEADERS!!! I would love to see leaders prosecuted also...since we have pushed for the same all around the world. Otherwise, this world-police-politics will never stop.
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      01-11-2007, 11:40 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
I ti s not logic buddy, it is the reality!
Do you want your kids/grandkids to live in isolation?
We should base our foreign policy on the opinion of others so our kids won't be isolated (whatever that means)? I would rather base it on our defense and have my kids alive.
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      01-11-2007, 11:41 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
FYI, television stations, especially those state run, are a legitimate military target. They are part of a nation's command, control, and communication system.
I guess, Osama would be justified if he slammed into the CNN building instead of the towers.

That is such crap you just said.

And what about the freedom of speach we promote here in this country??? Because the TV station backed Milosevic, we had the right to bomb it and kill its civilian employees???

In that case...I'd hate to work for FOX...
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      01-11-2007, 11:42 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
We should base our foreign policy on the opinion of others so our kids won't be isolated (whatever that means)? I would rather base it on our defense and have my kids alive.
We'll see that...another batch of 20,000 someone's kids is leaving soon...
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