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      06-21-2010, 09:40 AM   #1
drburton
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Stock Pads at Track - Not Good

I did a track even in May with stock pads, got the standard deposits, but overall it wasn't bad. They worked reasonably well.

Just got back from another event and the brakes were terrible. In the first session I had deposits and was getting brake fade at the end of the session. The fade started happening earlier and earlier over the course of the weekend, but was manageable.

The deposits were terrible. On day two the car was shaking violently when I hit the brakes. They still worked, but the shaking was very distracting. I felt like much of the braking 'feel' was compromised and I started to be inconsistent. I also had less confidence that they were going to work so I started braking earlier and earlier. On the straight I brake slightly at about 145mph and the shaking was disturbing.

Since I'm still a novice on the track (2nd event), I really wanted to work on improving my driving but the deposits created such a distraction, I'm a bit disappointed with the weekend.

I have some in car video I will post in the video section later this week. You can actually tell in the video how bad the car is shuttering during braking.

I'll be moving to track pads and fluid next time out.
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      06-21-2010, 07:35 PM   #2
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Did you ever post a video? I would like to see it.
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      06-22-2010, 01:52 AM   #3
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I've done 5 track day events with no issues with the stock pads in terms of deposits. Did you do a proper cool down each time and stay off the brakes while idle after each session? They're definitely not designed for track duty.
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      06-22-2010, 05:21 AM   #4
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you should do a cool down lap (with little to no brake application at all) after each session... And make sure you dont leave your brakes on when cooling down in the pits.
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      06-22-2010, 06:55 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal red View Post
you should do a cool down lap (with little to no brake application at all) after each session... And make sure you dont leave your brakes on when cooling down in the pits.
+1.It made all the difference in uneven pad deposits for myself even with track pads.
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      06-22-2010, 07:57 AM   #6
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I would even drive down and back on the pit access road to cool the brakes even further after a session and prior to parking (in addition to the cool down lap).

What track were you driving?
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      06-22-2010, 08:42 AM   #7
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I'll post the video in the next couple of days, haven't had a chance to upload it to the computer yet.

Everytime we got the last lap flag, I would do the lap with no braking at all. Then I would drive down the access road for additional cooling. No emergency brake was used.

I watched part of the video last night and the vibration is harder to see than I thought, although noticeable at some points.
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      06-22-2010, 10:22 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
I've done 5 track day events with no issues with the stock pads in terms of deposits. Did you do a proper cool down each time and stay off the brakes while idle after each session? They're definitely not designed for track duty.
This really surprises me... I was barely able to get 5 laps in before the stock pads went to hell on me (this was when my car was relatively new and I hadn't replaced everything yet).

Agreed that a proper cool down is essential no matter what brakes you're using, but unless you're taking it relatively easy on the brakes or driving on a slower track, the stock pads are not up to snuff. They simply aren't designed for the temperatures seen at the track.
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      06-22-2010, 10:58 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Any pad that is overheated is likely to transfer excess material in use. I know exactly what pads transfer material for me at what brake points. As the OP indicated you can feel the vibration under braking. With some pads/track configs it wears away before the next meltdown, aka high speed hard braking event where it occurs all over again.

A cool down lap prevents rotor warpage and heatsink into the caliper/fluid but it doesn't change material transfer that occurs under extreme braking. That can only be worn, turned, bead blasted or sanded off. Obviously the best solution is more appropriate track pads for the application and lots of cool air to the brake pads/calipers/rotors.
+1

Well said.
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      06-23-2010, 08:35 PM   #10
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At willow springs, I was able to get about 10 laps in a 335i on stock pads and rotors. It seems as though purchasing new pads and better rotors would definitely help me get some more track time before the brakes fade.
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      06-23-2010, 10:14 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
The rotors per se are not an issue. You might want to try proper track pads and high-temp brake fluid first.
+1, it's not the rotors.
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      06-24-2010, 08:52 AM   #12
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Did anyone get a chance to see the video I posted and the shuttering during braking. Just wanted validation that this is what everyone else is experiencing.
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      06-24-2010, 10:36 AM   #13
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think your thread title is a bit misleading, based on your previous posts, that track you "warped" your brakes at was the fastest track in north america. I have tracked my m3 a Laguna Seca and buttonwillow with no issues, stock pads with fresh higher temp fluid. Also since you are a beginner, you might need to pull back a bit and make sure it is not the driver that is causing the issue. What group are you running with on the track, do they provide instructors?
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      06-24-2010, 11:04 AM   #14
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One thing to remember that using the MDM will make this problem worse as it will increase the brake temps even if the light is not flashing.Was the OP using MDM?
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      06-24-2010, 11:14 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_DML View Post
think your thread title is a bit misleading, based on your previous posts, that track you "warped" your brakes at was the fastest track in north america. I have tracked my m3 a Laguna Seca and buttonwillow with no issues, stock pads with fresh higher temp fluid. Also since you are a beginner, you might need to pull back a bit and make sure it is not the driver that is causing the issue. What group are you running with on the track, do they provide instructors?
My original post from a previous track weekend was an inquiry regarding how to tell the difference between deposits and a warped rotor, because I was concerned. Turns out the rotors eventually cleared and it was deposits (they never warped and I never claimed they did).

The title of this post is relevant to what I experienced. I am certainly not the only one who has had deposit issues with the stock pads, seems relatively common. Thought I would share my experience.

For BMW I was in the C group with an instructor. No notable issues with the way I was braking from the instructor. For the PCA, I ran in group 2 with no instructor. I did use MDM, which may make the problem worse, but given my level I'm not ready to turn it off. No, I don't rely on it, I try to be very smooth with inputs.

Next time out, I'll go with track pads and higher temp fluid. I'll post my experience.
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      06-28-2010, 01:08 PM   #16
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This thread interested me greatly. I get really bad vibrations from my brakes after a track day. I have done several and several days at the ring and it is always the same.

I was concerned that I had warped the rotors but the problem usually resolves itself so it must be this issue with deposits. Can someone explain this further to me?

I was looking into upgrading the brakes to combat this issue. I am concerned that if I put track day pads on they will be squeaky or not perform well during normal road driving.

What pads are recommended?

I was considering one of the 2 kits here:

http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/t...3-brakes.shtml

Will the big brake kits help with cooling? At a track day my wife and I drive the car so it gets twice as much driving than either of us so less cooling down is a good thing.

Thanks
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      06-28-2010, 01:24 PM   #17
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Here are a pic of deposits on my front brake discs after 1 track day with stock pads.I normally run Hawk HP+'s on track.They always clean up after some street driving and I am still on the orginial discs after 20+ track days & 40000 kms of street driving.

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      06-28-2010, 02:38 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roaders View Post
This thread interested me greatly. I get really bad vibrations from my brakes after a track day. I have done several and several days at the ring and it is always the same.

I was concerned that I had warped the rotors but the problem usually resolves itself so it must be this issue with deposits. Can someone explain this further to me?

I was looking into upgrading the brakes to combat this issue. I am concerned that if I put track day pads on they will be squeaky or not perform well during normal road driving.

What pads are recommended?

I was considering one of the 2 kits here:

http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/t...3-brakes.shtml

Will the big brake kits help with cooling? At a track day my wife and I drive the car so it gets twice as much driving than either of us so less cooling down is a good thing.

Thanks
I'm going to move to track pads and fluid next time out and see if that clears or at least reduces the pad deposit issue. From what I have read it seems the Pagid RS19 pads are very good but a bit pricey. Keep in mind if you go this direction you will need to put the pads on before your trip to the track and take them off when you get back - don't want to be driving around with track pads on a regular basis.
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      06-28-2010, 03:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Here are a pic of deposits on my front brake discs after 1 track day with stock pads.I normally run Hawk HP+'s on track.They always clean up after some street driving and I am still on the orginial discs after 20+ track days & 40000 kms of street driving.

I am more impressed that you run with only one lug bolt more than anything else!
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      06-28-2010, 04:07 PM   #20
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I am more impressed that you run with only one lug bolt more than anything else!
My lightweight version
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      06-28-2010, 05:12 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drburton View Post
I'm going to move to track pads and fluid next time out and see if that clears or at least reduces the pad deposit issue. From what I have read it seems the Pagid RS19 pads are very good but a bit pricey. Keep in mind if you go this direction you will need to put the pads on before your trip to the track and take them off when you get back - don't want to be driving around with track pads on a regular basis.
I ruined a set of rotors by running my track pads all winter. The car wasn't driven very much but track pads are extra abrasive to rotors when the pads are cold. They are more friendly to rotors when driven hot like at the track.
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      07-08-2010, 11:08 PM   #22
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I've found there is a lot of technique to braking. I run in the instructor group, and I am usually not pushing my car super hard, but I do like to go fast... I try to be nice to my brakes though.

Just some tips to help eek more life out of stock pads: (and I haven't tracked my E90 M3 yet, but I have a ton of track time in my supercharged E36 M3, E46 M3, Z4 and 335i, and have done events on stock pads as well as race pads.)

- brake firmly as little as possible
- the longer you are on the brakes, the harder they have to work and the more heat you put in them
- get as much time off the brakes as you can
- don't be afraid to take a cooldown lap in the middle of a session, or come into the pits for a few minutes to cool your brakes (At thunderhill, I can usually get an entire session on stock pads, but at Laguna, I usually have to come into the hot pits for a minute or so, to cool them if I want them to last)
- if you are fully threshold braking into every braking zone, your stock pads are not going to last
- remember that you are still doing driving schools and that going 1 second faster isn't going to net you more prize money

seriously, though, try riding with more experienced people and take note on how they brake, when they apply the brakes and when they come off them. Intermediate group is usually a really bad place for this, ride with some of the faster instructors.

The M3's factory brakes are pretty good. It is a very heavy car, though, and there isn't a whole lot of brake cooling. You may end up having to go to a more aggressive pad... (and the Cool Carbons are an ok dual purpose pads, but you still need to use good technique or you will overheat them too)
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