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      07-14-2010, 10:23 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by SlamMan View Post
Matte clear bra is available. Like someone said earlier, the best option would be to wrap a standard car in matte clear bra. You could do it over any color. You can remove it when it starts to look like crap. Polyurethane is way more durable than paint.
So there you go then.

SG + full-body matte clear bra = poor man's FG. FG after all, is the same base coat as SG, with a different clear coat.
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      07-14-2010, 12:39 PM   #90
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I'm not putting your knowledge or detailing in question.There is no way washing is just like the last step of polishing before applying a wax . The simple action of removing dirt off the car NO MATTER HOW MUCH you use a power washer, is going to leave fine scratches ,for everyone, PERIOD!.
Your right about the polishers movement , but wrong about its possible effects.If you're that sure about an "orbital" not burning a clear coat, grab a good abrasive ,slap some on your hood and hold the polisher there for about 5 minutes. Maybe you wouldn't do it with a light polish that you pick up a PeP Boys, but something with even a medium cut to it will scar the clearcoat.
So, as you understand how a polish works, then I still don't see how you can't understand that an abrasive CAN dull shiny paint but also leave a "shine" on a dull surface. If you think you're not scratching your car EVERY time you wash it, your nuts....
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      07-14-2010, 01:06 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Reznick View Post
I'm not putting your knowledge or detailing in question.There is no way washing is just like the last step of polishing before applying a wax . The simple action of removing dirt off the car NO MATTER HOW MUCH you use a power washer, is going to leave fine scratches ,for everyone, PERIOD!.
Your right about the polishers movement , but wrong about its possible effects.If you're that sure about an "orbital" not burning a clear coat, grab a good abrasive ,slap some on your hood and hold the polisher there for about 5 minutes. Maybe you wouldn't do it with a light polish that you pick up a PeP Boys, but something with even a medium cut to it will scar the clearcoat.
So, as you understand how a polish works, then I still don't see how you can't understand that an abrasive CAN dull shiny paint but also leave a "shine" on a dull surface. If you think you're not scratching your car EVERY time you wash it, your nuts....
Would the 3M compound I have on my shelf be sufficient to satisfy you? Simply, a random orbital machine does not have enough speed or power to burn the clearcoat. You can definitely introduce a shit ton of hazing but getting through the clear? Not gonna happen. The polish breaks down too soon when using a random orbital. Rotaries are a whole other ball game.

If you're so sure you can't wash a car without scratching come on over to Germany and have a look at mine. I had another M owner that had the same doubts as you did and he had his doubts erased the weekend before last. You might think I'm nuts but I have swirl and scratch free paint and I wash 2 or 3 times a week. Don't think just because you're incapable of doing this correctly that noone is.
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      07-14-2010, 02:24 PM   #92
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My worry is what if you get into a fender bender. How the heck will they repaint it? I'm sure many auto bodies are not familiar on how to paint this type of color? Not sure if its done the same as the regular cars or not. I sure would not want the paint shop to experiment on my car!
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      07-14-2010, 02:30 PM   #93
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This has to be the most polarizing discussion on paint that I've ever come across in 10 years of reading car forums.

I can't help but feel FG would be a mistake for me as I have yet to read a convincing argument that the worries noted by many people are unfounded. Plus, it looks like primer.
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      07-14-2010, 03:01 PM   #94
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Would the 3M compound I have on my shelf be sufficient to satisfy you? Simply, a random orbital machine does not have enough speed or power to burn the clearcoat. You can definitely introduce a shit ton of hazing but getting through the clear? Not gonna happen. The polish breaks down too soon when using a random orbital. Rotaries are a whole other ball game.

If you're so sure you can't wash a car without scratching come on over to Germany and have a look at mine. I had another M owner that had the same doubts as you did and he had his doubts erased the weekend before last. You might think I'm nuts but I have swirl and scratch free paint and I wash 2 or 3 times a week. Don't think just because you're incapable of doing this correctly that noone is.
Yes 3M is fine but I use Menzerna . I've been using it for a little while now. Used to use Zaino but was never quite happy with it.
The last time I was in Germany to visit family, I could have sworn they had the same dirt and grime that was prevalent in every other part of the world.I never said that you car wasn't swirl free. I said it before and I'll say it again(like others have also posted on this thread). it is impossible to not put some scratches in the clear coat when washing. No matter how soapy and slippery you get it ,some dirt will still touch the clear coat as its wiped away.If you didn't get fine scratches from washing , then why would there be a need for polish?You wouldn't get scratches all over the car from just driving. there would be no reason to use it other than getting a scratch from a branch or etching from rain or bird shit. Pull the car in a garage under a fluorescent light and you're gonna find some. I guess you've reached some jedi-like,car washing talent that I can only dream of. The same topic is being discussed at 6speed online. Here is what the professional detailers have posted in reference the matte paint care for the M3. It says what I stated before about a polish being used on this type of paint.(which is in direct contradiction to what you say.) But hey what the hell do I know I'm just some hack that can't even wash a car correctly
Some how I get the feeling you're still gonna put your fingers in your ears and go LALALALALALALA, I can't hear you.Whatever gets you through the day

Matte or Satin Finish Paint - do not polish or wet-sand a matte clear, as the flattening agents that cause the matte appearance (textured finish) by diffuse 30 degree reflection are retained very close to the clear coat surface. By leveling the surface the light will be reflected evenly and result in a ‘shine’. Use a rotary polisher and an ultra soft, zero abrasive cut (Lake County CCS Concourse Gold (100 PPI) foam pad) with a mild chemical paint cleaner (Zaino Z-AIO - All in One) it will remove surface marring and leave it satin matte. Use a clear polymer (Zaino Z-CS - Clear Seal) the key is to add surface protection and depth without adding gloss.


Swisswax - Opaque Wax- a premium wax specially developed for all satin matt paintwork types. It offers your car's paintwork thorough long term protection against all kinds of negative contaminants without damaging its satin matt appearance.

Last edited by Reznick; 07-14-2010 at 03:18 PM. Reason: spelling
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      07-14-2010, 04:38 PM   #95
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That being said FG is going to be an SOB to maintain if the car isn't in a glass enclosed display in a museum.
I don't think this is a correct conclusion in any way. It is massive speculation and reading between the lines (improperly) of the BMW disclaimer.

1. This point of view does not follow directly from the BMW disclaimer in any way.
2. This also does not follow from any common sense about what the FG actually is - just normal paint and a modified clear coat.
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      07-14-2010, 09:14 PM   #96
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I don't think this is a correct conclusion in any way. It is massive speculation and reading between the lines (improperly) of the BMW disclaimer.

1. This point of view does not follow directly from the BMW disclaimer in any way.
2. This also does not follow from any common sense about what the FG actually is - just normal paint and a modified clear coat.
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      07-14-2010, 10:52 PM   #97
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Yes 3M is fine but I use Menzerna . I've been using it for a little while now. Used to use Zaino but was never quite happy with it.
The last time I was in Germany to visit family, I could have sworn they had the same dirt and grime that was prevalent in every other part of the world.I never said that you car wasn't swirl free. I said it before and I'll say it again(like others have also posted on this thread). it is impossible to not put some scratches in the clear coat when washing. No matter how soapy and slippery you get it ,some dirt will still touch the clear coat as its wiped away.If you didn't get fine scratches from washing , then why would there be a need for polish?You wouldn't get scratches all over the car from just driving. there would be no reason to use it other than getting a scratch from a branch or etching from rain or bird shit. Pull the car in a garage under a fluorescent light and you're gonna find some. I guess you've reached some jedi-like,car washing talent that I can only dream of. The same topic is being discussed at 6speed online. Here is what the professional detailers have posted in reference the matte paint care for the M3. It says what I stated before about a polish being used on this type of paint.(which is in direct contradiction to what you say.) But hey what the hell do I know I'm just some hack that can't even wash a car correctly
Some how I get the feeling you're still gonna put your fingers in your ears and go LALALALALALALA, I can't hear you.Whatever gets you through the day

Matte or Satin Finish Paint - do not polish or wet-sand a matte clear, as the flattening agents that cause the matte appearance (textured finish) by diffuse 30 degree reflection are retained very close to the clear coat surface. By leveling the surface the light will be reflected evenly and result in a ‘shine’. Use a rotary polisher and an ultra soft, zero abrasive cut (Lake County CCS Concourse Gold (100 PPI) foam pad) with a mild chemical paint cleaner (Zaino Z-AIO - All in One) it will remove surface marring and leave it satin matte. Use a clear polymer (Zaino Z-CS - Clear Seal) the key is to add surface protection and depth without adding gloss.


Swisswax - Opaque Wax- a premium wax specially developed for all satin matt paintwork types. It offers your car's paintwork thorough long term protection against all kinds of negative contaminants without damaging its satin matt appearance.
I like the Menzerna stuff too. I still have some of the older IP and FPII that work well but I've found the Klasse twins work worlds better. Only thing I can think of is with the paint being so hard the chemical polishes work better than abrasive polishes. Even the 3M compound takes forever to get anything done. I've been fighting with some marring on my trunk since the day I picked up the car. I don't know what the dealer "deatilers" did back there but it's been a monster pain in the ass to deal with. It's gotten better but I'm still not happy with it.

The only reason I polish is because you can never get every dead bug or bird crap off before it etchesd the paint. Or, people try and get the bug or poop off but scratch the pain in the process. You or your kids could brush past the car and leave some marring, etc. there are any number of reasons why one would polish.

I usually do it because the bugs out here are VERY acidic and it's much easier to remove any marring I might get from being aggressive with my QD and MF that it is to remove bug stains. You also remove less cleat coat so that's the route I go.

I never said I had any special technique, it's a basic two-bucket method, but it's what works for me. I've looked at the paint in sunlight, under the flourescents in my garage, and with the other spotlights and worklights I have and there's nothing there. Like I said, I've shown others that were skeptical and they agreed with me.

I'm not sure what the warning about not polishing a matte finish is in there for, I agree with that. I also don't know what the Swissvax part is in there for since I never said you should wax the car either. I simply disagree that washing will cause any appreciable change in the finish.
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      07-15-2010, 01:49 AM   #98
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I'm curious how to wash my car without scratching it. No matter how careful I am, it ends up with fine scratches and swirls over time. Maybe certain colors hide scratches better? I know when I had a jet black Mini, it would show every single little imperfection.
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      07-15-2010, 10:10 AM   #99
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Opinions vary...

Why do you think they are having buyers in the U.S. sign waivers? Common sense ain't so common!

I have no bitch with opposing views but I think many FG buyers are in for one Helluva surprise when they find the "modified clear coat" becomes shiny in spots when they try to wash or maintain the paint surface.
We will know soon enough when the handwringing begins.

To no one in particular...IMO, a very low pressure rinsing of the FG paint followed by a blow dry may be the only way to reach minimum threshold of scratching peculiar to paint care; no fabric, no wax, no polish, nothing, zilch, nada but H2O and O2 to prevent owner-occasioned blemishing. Just say NO to the wand, clay bar, wax-polish kit.

All kidding aside, it's a clever "color", but not one that I'd consider for a drive in either traffic (think metro rush hour) or any day when the weather was anything less than glorious.

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      07-15-2010, 01:55 PM   #100
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I'm curious how to wash my car without scratching it. No matter how careful I am, it ends up with fine scratches and swirls over time. Maybe certain colors hide scratches better? I know when I had a jet black Mini, it would show every single little imperfection.
The main thing is technique but the tools you use can contribute as well.

I use a 2 bucket method with a grit guard in the rinse bucket for the paint but the wheels is a single bucket method. For some reason I've never had an issue with wheel finishes.

Start with the wheels but do NOT rinse the whole car first, just one wheel at a time. That's begging for water spots on the paint and the other wheels. Once the wheels are done, move on to the rest. Make sure to throw out the dirty wheel water and thoroughly rinse the bucket. Brake dust is incredibly damaging to automotive finshes.

Now, make sure you rinse the holy piss out of the car. You want to get as much loose dirt off as possible. Then, let whatever's left soak really, really well. Seriously, soak it as long as you can, it'll only help. The more you have to use pressure instead of letting the soap doing it's job, the higher the risk of swirls.

A problem a lot of people have is not using enough soap. Follow the directions on the bottle. And despite what some say, ANY car specific soap will work fine. Do NOT use Dawn unless your'e trying to strip the wax before a polish.

For the actual wash you want something with a LOT of pile so anything removed will get pulled into the pile and not rubbed on the paint. I use Meguiar's now discontinued wash brushes or a real lamb's wool mitt. I prefer the brushes actually. Always use the least amount of pressure necessary to get the crap off the paint. Multiple light passes is better than scrubbing.

A lot of people don't like the California Water Blade but again, if you don't use a lot of pressure the risk is little to none. Until you get the rest down pat, I'd stay away from it. You CAN use something like a leaf blower to get water out of crevices and the majority of the car but you have to be careful not to blow dirt from the ground back onto the car. If you remove your gun and let the water run lightly out of the hose the natural sheeting action will pull most of the water off of the car minimizing the amount of drying you actually need to do.

This tip is HUGE - Only use a GOOD waffle weave towel and make sure you wash it EVERY time you use it or at a minimum when you don't have a clean surface to use anymore. And under no circumstance should you use this town for ANYTHING other than washed panels. That means no jambs, wheel well edges, engine covers, NOTHING. When you wash this towel or any microfibers only use blue Dawn (yes, it should be the blue, no dyes or fragrances) to wash and then air dry in your dryer, NO DRYER SHEETS. Regular detergent and liquid or dryer sheet softeners will build up on your towels and microfibers making them less absorbent and the fibers stiff, meaning more swirls and scratches.

In between washed never use a quick detailer if there is anything but the slightest build-up of dust on the car. Anything more and you're just grinding it into the paint. Basically, is a CA car Duster can't remove it, you need to wash, not QD.

A basic wash takes me about an hour and a half and that includes making sure I get all the CONSTANT drips from the mirrors, squeezing the water out of the trunk seal (this holds a shit ton of water), and wiping down the door jambs.

No, it's not easy, nor quick, to do it this way and it can be a huge pain in the ass, not to mention expensive, but it's worth it. As I've said, I wash my car 2-3 times a week (it used to be 3-4 before we moved to Germany) and I've not had any issues.

If you have questions, hit me up.

Edit: FWIW, I used this technique on every car I've owned in the last 10 or 12 year to include a Passat I had painted Amber Fire Metallic (early PT Turbo color), another Passat that was two-toned with Murano Green (04 Audi TT A3 color) on top, and an 07 Civic Si that was Nighthawk Black as well as my M and it worked great on all of them.

Last edited by quality_sound; 07-15-2010 at 02:02 PM.
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      07-15-2010, 03:14 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quality_sound View Post
The main thing is technique but the tools you use can contribute as well.

I use a 2 bucket method with a grit guard in the rinse bucket for the paint but the wheels is a single bucket method. For some reason I've never had an issue with wheel finishes.

Start with the wheels but do NOT rinse the whole car first, just one wheel at a time. That's begging for water spots on the paint and the other wheels. Once the wheels are done, move on to the rest. Make sure to throw out the dirty wheel water and thoroughly rinse the bucket. Brake dust is incredibly damaging to automotive finshes.

Now, make sure you rinse the holy piss out of the car. You want to get as much loose dirt off as possible. Then, let whatever's left soak really, really well. Seriously, soak it as long as you can, it'll only help. The more you have to use pressure instead of letting the soap doing it's job, the higher the risk of swirls.

A problem a lot of people have is not using enough soap. Follow the directions on the bottle. And despite what some say, ANY car specific soap will work fine. Do NOT use Dawn unless your'e trying to strip the wax before a polish.

For the actual wash you want something with a LOT of pile so anything removed will get pulled into the pile and not rubbed on the paint. I use Meguiar's now discontinued wash brushes or a real lamb's wool mitt. I prefer the brushes actually. Always use the least amount of pressure necessary to get the crap off the paint. Multiple light passes is better than scrubbing.

A lot of people don't like the California Water Blade but again, if you don't use a lot of pressure the risk is little to none. Until you get the rest down pat, I'd stay away from it. You CAN use something like a leaf blower to get water out of crevices and the majority of the car but you have to be careful not to blow dirt from the ground back onto the car. If you remove your gun and let the water run lightly out of the hose the natural sheeting action will pull most of the water off of the car minimizing the amount of drying you actually need to do.

This tip is HUGE - Only use a GOOD waffle weave towel and make sure you wash it EVERY time you use it or at a minimum when you don't have a clean surface to use anymore. And under no circumstance should you use this town for ANYTHING other than washed panels. That means no jambs, wheel well edges, engine covers, NOTHING. When you wash this towel or any microfibers only use blue Dawn (yes, it should be the blue, no dyes or fragrances) to wash and then air dry in your dryer, NO DRYER SHEETS. Regular detergent and liquid or dryer sheet softeners will build up on your towels and microfibers making them less absorbent and the fibers stiff, meaning more swirls and scratches.

In between washed never use a quick detailer if there is anything but the slightest build-up of dust on the car. Anything more and you're just grinding it into the paint. Basically, is a CA car Duster can't remove it, you need to wash, not QD.

A basic wash takes me about an hour and a half and that includes making sure I get all the CONSTANT drips from the mirrors, squeezing the water out of the trunk seal (this holds a shit ton of water), and wiping down the door jambs.

No, it's not easy, nor quick, to do it this way and it can be a huge pain in the ass, not to mention expensive, but it's worth it. As I've said, I wash my car 2-3 times a week (it used to be 3-4 before we moved to Germany) and I've not had any issues.

If you have questions, hit me up.

Edit: FWIW, I used this technique on every car I've owned in the last 10 or 12 year to include a Passat I had painted Amber Fire Metallic (early PT Turbo color), another Passat that was two-toned with Murano Green (04 Audi TT A3 color) on top, and an 07 Civic Si that was Nighthawk Black as well as my M and it worked great on all of them.
Much good info that sounds very familiar.

FWIW, I've been unable to find a better mircrofiber cleaning solution than the Pinnacle concentrate http://www.pinnaclewax.com/pin622.html . This works like a charm.
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      07-15-2010, 03:45 PM   #102
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This is how I would treat Frozen Gray paint



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      07-15-2010, 05:40 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quality_sound View Post
The main thing is technique but the tools you use can contribute as well.

I use a 2 bucket method with a grit guard in the rinse bucket for the paint but the wheels is a single bucket method. For some reason I've never had an issue with wheel finishes.

Start with the wheels but do NOT rinse the whole car first, just one wheel at a time. That's begging for water spots on the paint and the other wheels. Once the wheels are done, move on to the rest. Make sure to throw out the dirty wheel water and thoroughly rinse the bucket. Brake dust is incredibly damaging to automotive finshes.

Now, make sure you rinse the holy piss out of the car. You want to get as much loose dirt off as possible. Then, let whatever's left soak really, really well. Seriously, soak it as long as you can, it'll only help. The more you have to use pressure instead of letting the soap doing it's job, the higher the risk of swirls.

A problem a lot of people have is not using enough soap. Follow the directions on the bottle. And despite what some say, ANY car specific soap will work fine. Do NOT use Dawn unless your'e trying to strip the wax before a polish.

For the actual wash you want something with a LOT of pile so anything removed will get pulled into the pile and not rubbed on the paint. I use Meguiar's now discontinued wash brushes or a real lamb's wool mitt. I prefer the brushes actually. Always use the least amount of pressure necessary to get the crap off the paint. Multiple light passes is better than scrubbing.

A lot of people don't like the California Water Blade but again, if you don't use a lot of pressure the risk is little to none. Until you get the rest down pat, I'd stay away from it. You CAN use something like a leaf blower to get water out of crevices and the majority of the car but you have to be careful not to blow dirt from the ground back onto the car. If you remove your gun and let the water run lightly out of the hose the natural sheeting action will pull most of the water off of the car minimizing the amount of drying you actually need to do.

This tip is HUGE - Only use a GOOD waffle weave towel and make sure you wash it EVERY time you use it or at a minimum when you don't have a clean surface to use anymore. And under no circumstance should you use this town for ANYTHING other than washed panels. That means no jambs, wheel well edges, engine covers, NOTHING. When you wash this towel or any microfibers only use blue Dawn (yes, it should be the blue, no dyes or fragrances) to wash and then air dry in your dryer, NO DRYER SHEETS. Regular detergent and liquid or dryer sheet softeners will build up on your towels and microfibers making them less absorbent and the fibers stiff, meaning more swirls and scratches.

In between washed never use a quick detailer if there is anything but the slightest build-up of dust on the car. Anything more and you're just grinding it into the paint. Basically, is a CA car Duster can't remove it, you need to wash, not QD.

A basic wash takes me about an hour and a half and that includes making sure I get all the CONSTANT drips from the mirrors, squeezing the water out of the trunk seal (this holds a shit ton of water), and wiping down the door jambs.

No, it's not easy, nor quick, to do it this way and it can be a huge pain in the ass, not to mention expensive, but it's worth it. As I've said, I wash my car 2-3 times a week (it used to be 3-4 before we moved to Germany) and I've not had any issues.

If you have questions, hit me up.

Edit: FWIW, I used this technique on every car I've owned in the last 10 or 12 year to include a Passat I had painted Amber Fire Metallic (early PT Turbo color), another Passat that was two-toned with Murano Green (04 Audi TT A3 color) on top, and an 07 Civic Si that was Nighthawk Black as well as my M and it worked great on all of them.
wow, thanks for the tips! you take much care and time.
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      07-15-2010, 06:43 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Nate@IND View Post
This is how I would treat Frozen Gray paint



+1,000,000!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love the grip around the turn.
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      07-15-2010, 07:16 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate@IND View Post
This is how I would treat Frozen Gray paint



Is that Ralf Nate????

Cool Photos!!!
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      07-15-2010, 08:51 PM   #106
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trackrat: Should all black BMWs (or black cars period) come with a disclaimer? Obviosuly not. Swirls and scraches WILL happen on any car it is just a matter of

-How many you get
-How long they take to become really noticeable
-Washing technique and frequency

If you follow good care practices there is no reason whatsoever (other than overly paranoid BMW lawyers) to believe the FG will be more delicate or more of a PITA than a black car (burnishing on FG vs. swirls/streaks on black). Only time will really tell. My point was simply that it is too early to make a solid conclusion.

While we are at it I'll add to the solid good practices to note as well:

-Try a cheap home depot grout sponge for washing and try to go in single passes over sections of your car from top to bottom with much more rinsing of the sponge when along the lowest pass to the ground as it will be much dirtier there.
-I've had much better luck with grout sponges preventing scratching as opposed to mits. Mits simply trap too many debris and don't seem to wash or rinse well. For anyone that has done any tile work the advantages of the single pass with a grout sponge will be obvious. It has rapidly slowed the very small minor scratching (just about to none) on my own car.
-A silicone wiper also works great to screed excess water from your car before a drying with MF towel. Just make sure the car and wiper is spotless and you'll get no scratching from it.
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      07-15-2010, 10:21 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
-Try a cheap home depot grout sponge for washing and try to go in single passes over sections of your car from top to bottom with much more rinsing of the sponge when along the lowest pass to the ground as it will be much dirtier there.
-I've had much better luck with grout sponges preventing scratching as opposed to mits. Mits simply trap too many debris and don't seem to wash or rinse well. For anyone that has done any tile work the advantages of the single pass with a grout sponge will be obvious. It has rapidly slowed the very small minor scratching (just about to none) on my own car.
-A silicone wiper also works great to screed excess water from your car before a drying with MF towel. Just make sure the car and wiper is spotless and you'll get no scratching from it.
I forgot all about the grout sponges. I used them for a while but having to rinsce after each pass added a half hour to my already long process so I stopped using them but for less than a dollar it's hard to go wrong.
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      07-15-2010, 10:25 PM   #108
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Something to add to my list, start at the top of the car and go down from there. My general order is greenhouse, hood, trunk, sides (not the skirts), rear bumper, front bumper, skirts.
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      07-31-2010, 12:25 PM   #109
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I remembered the days when driving around in a primer gray colored car was considered ghetto. Now people pay premiums for them.
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      07-31-2010, 02:58 PM   #110
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did bmw actually use the words "bird poo" hahaha.
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