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      07-09-2010, 09:32 PM   #1
fredwlau
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e92 m3 v10 or ess supercharged m3

Which would be faster, a v10 swapped m3 with 6xx horsepower or an ess supercharged m3 with 6xx horsepower.

0-60?
0-120?
0-Whatever

Reliability?

Thanks for any info
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      07-09-2010, 09:39 PM   #2
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S85 M3 would win in everything if tuned even without forced induction.
The ESS e9x M3 supercharger kits dont make much HP compared to the competitors FI kits, but even then it still would lose.
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      07-09-2010, 09:41 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperlativE90 View Post
S85 M3 would win in everything if tuned even without forced induction.
The ESS e9x M3 supercharger kits dont make much HP compared to the competitors FI kits, but even then it still would lose.
Thanks for the quick reply! I've always fancied the v10 over FI but I'm more partial to the sound of a V8 so I was just curious.

Cheers
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      07-09-2010, 10:46 PM   #4
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V10

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      07-09-2010, 11:26 PM   #5
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^ looks like a driver's race.
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      07-09-2010, 11:29 PM   #6
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v14 ftw
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      07-09-2010, 11:31 PM   #7
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Which ESS setup? VT600-VT625, I believe the ESS SC'd S65 would be faster than the S85, it would be much easier to install, etc. and from what I've heard they are very reliable.
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      07-09-2010, 11:39 PM   #8
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The Manhart V10 is pretty sweet. Almost all BMW parts, engine, etc. Pretty cool.

http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/20...BMW-M3-V10.htm
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      07-10-2010, 09:26 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Which ESS setup? VT600-VT625, I believe the ESS SC'd S65 would be faster than the S85, it would be much easier to install, etc. and from what I've heard they are very reliable.
Whichever ESS produced the most horsepower, and that manhart v10 looks amazing, I would prefer to keep the stock appearance or keep the exterior mods very minimal even with the v10, is there a price tag on that and is it available in the United States?

Thanks for all the input!
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      07-10-2010, 09:31 AM   #10
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I'd prefer the V10 even though it would be way harder to do and more expensive.
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      07-10-2010, 10:45 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperlativE90 View Post
The ESS e9x M3 supercharger kits dont make much HP compared to the competitors FI kits
Now that's just down right bullshit and you know it!

OP, there are many threads on the HP the various SC put down on the wheels.

The V10 is much heavier, so your high HP will be for nought, as it won't handle or perform for shit.
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      07-10-2010, 11:40 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post




Of course he knows it's BS. Here's all the OP needs to know about ESS vs. "the competitors" (which Superlative won't name):

The Competitors:
601 whp at 10PSI with meth injection (http://bmw.pencilgeek.org/showDyno.php?recID=233)

- vs -

ESS:
594 whp at 7.5 PSI on 94 octane pump gas (http://bmw.pencilgeek.org/showDyno.php?recID=218).

When you look at the power, gas, and especially the boost that it takes to make that power (or boost+meth) -- it's not just case closed, it's a complete blow-out.

BTW, dropping the Manheim V10 into your car will cost you a lot of money. We once calculated it -- and I seem to recall about $50-70k.
is there a boost graph from the ess dyno? The 601 pull was a steady 9.5lbs with a spike at the end of the pull which spiked to 9.98lbs. The gintani car also made over 20lb more torque to the wheels

Last edited by KiokenM3; 07-10-2010 at 11:48 AM.
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      07-11-2010, 10:57 AM   #13
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Food for thought:
Difference between ESS 4,5psi and 6,5psi kits is like 75whp (2 psi difference)

On the examples above, 3psi more only yields 11whp??

Yes I would hate to have an ESS SC....... NOT!!!!
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      07-11-2010, 11:31 AM   #14
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The OP asked about an ESS M3 vs. a V10 M3, not the competitors kits. But some will take any opportunity to do the usual sales pitch about ESS and how the others are sub par in comparison, for one person it seems to be his lot in life. As I stated initially, without the tuner BS, go with the ESS VT625 over the V10, much easier to do, I would argue it would be faster and probably more reliable with less problems.

As far as this 594whp ESS dyno vs. Ricky's, yes it's impressive especially at only 7.5 psi, but let's look at the independent ESS dyno's at 6psi, around 500-520whp, with a full exhaust, another one is making 570whp at 6psi and a 100 shot of Nitrous. It's though to believe that a VT625 makes 80+WHP with 1.5 more psi than the indepenent VT600 dyno's, and more than a car with 6psi and a 100 shot?

FWIW, here's that same ESS VT625 M3 that made (594whp), around 700chp, in action, the vid lists it at 625HP, after these runs that looks to be more accurate than the (594whp) dyno, it losses rather easily to a Stage 2 - 630hp, Flash and Exhaust 997tt.

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ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi
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      07-11-2010, 01:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Yes there was a boost graph of the ESS dyno. It's in the DynoDB on the 585whp figure. It was 7.59 PSI and that included the boost spike too. So if you're more comfortable saying 601whp with 10PSI vs. 585whp on 7.5 PSI, then I'm sure nobody will argue over it -- since the end result is still basically the same.

We've had this discussion about the boost spike many times, but it sounds like we need to repeat it. If you don't want to calculate your boost based on a trendline analysis, then you can't say you have 601whp if you don't want to say you have 10PSI. If you want to exclude the boost spike, then we'd have to read your whp at the point before the boost spike -- meaning you don't have 601whp. Same goes for ESS or anybody else. The best way to calculate boost is to use trendline analysis -- as that's the exact type of math formula used for oscilating but linearly increasing data -- such as boost. I would welcome you and Drew to submit your dyno charts, and I'll be happy to run the trend line analysis on them. I'm sure your boost would be lower. But if you don't want to submit them, then I can't force you -- and therefore you have 10PSI. That's really all there is to it.

20 more ft/lbs of torque at 7000 RPMs doesn't really help much (it's actually more like 25 ft/lbs). I think most people are more concerned about your -55 ft/lbs at 3000 RPMs and -45 ft/lbs at 3500 RPMs than your +25 ft/lbs at 7000 RPMs. You want the torque down low, 2500-5000 RPMs, not up high. Here's a torque comparison of your 601whp 10PSI run and the ESS 7.5 PSI 585whp run:

RPMPer-M3
7.5PSI
KoikenM3
10PSI
Difference
2500235 ft/lbs225 ft/lbs-10 ft/lbs
3000260 ft/lbs205 ft/lbs-55 ft/lbs
3500295 ft/lbs250 ft/lbs-45 ft/lbs
4000300 ft/lbs295 ft/lbs-5 ft/lbs
4500325 ft/lbs305 ft/lbs-20 ft/lbs
5000340 ft/lbs325 ft/lbs-15 ft/lbs
5500350 ft/lbs350 ft/lbs0 ft/lbs
6000350 ft/lbs365 ft/lbs+15 ft/lbs
6500360 ft/lbs380 ft/lbs+20 ft/lbs
7000370 ft/lbs395 ft/lbs+25 ft/lbs
7500374 ft/lbs385 ft/lbs+11 ft/lbs
8000365 ft/lbs380 ft/lbs+15 ft/lbs

for me im not concerned about my torque loss down on the low end, when i race i dont start my rpms in the 3000-3500 range, im in the 6-7000 range when i start. as for others it might be more of a concern for them, to be honest im rarely in the 3-3500 range unless im on the highway cruising at 60mph and could really care less. i think when people look at dyno graphs theyre more concerned on peak numbers, or maybe its just me
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      07-11-2010, 01:54 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
The OP asked about an ESS M3 vs. a V10 M3, not the competitors kits. But some will take any opportunity to do the usual sales pitch about ESS and how the others are sub par in comparison, for one person it seems to be his lot in life. As I stated initially, without the tuner BS, go with the ESS VT625 over the V10, much easier to do, I would argue it would be faster and probably more reliable with less problems.

As far as this 594whp ESS dyno vs. Ricky's, yes it's impressive especially at only 7.5 psi, but let's look at the independent ESS dyno's at 6psi, around 500-520whp, with a full exhaust, another one is making 570whp at 6psi and a 100 shot of Nitrous. It's though to believe that a VT625 makes 80+WHP with 1.5 more psi than the indepenent VT600 dyno's, and more than a car with 6psi and a 100 shot?

FWIW, here's that same ESS VT625 M3 that made (594whp), around 700chp, in action, the vid lists it at 625HP, after these runs that looks to be more accurate than the (594whp) dyno, it losses rather easily to a Stage 2 - 630hp, Flash and Exhaust 997tt.

hey drew do you know if the ess car was having issues during that race?
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      07-11-2010, 01:55 PM   #17
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Hi Drew

Superlative began this sliming match with his BS comment above. This only opened the door of correction from PG.

Per has a 6sp and perhaps is not the best of drivers.
Independent dynos are as best as we all can get when comparing whp.

One thing which has to be worth doing, and I cannot understand why you guys in the US have not done, is to take an ESS and competitors car with the same boost and fuel, and see who makes more.

Boost of 9,7-10 psi and water meth, to not make decidedly more than 600whp, begs the question why? Especially when ESS kits with ALOT LESS boost are making 590whp.

You said it above, the ESS 6psi kit makes 520whp, so even if you ignore the 7,5psi result of 590whp, how can you sanely justify 4psi more boost with water meth for 80whp??
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      07-11-2010, 02:14 PM   #18
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im a car enthusiast like everyone else here, ess, aa, gintani and vf all make great kits. its all preference for who wants what. at the end of the day im happy i went with gintani and ess customers are all happy too. what i think everyone would like to see is some runs. ess should bring whatever car they want, gintani will bring some cars including my own and drew's and do some fun runs. since ess dynos almost the same as gintani's cars it should all be drivers races right? im sure robert with his stroked, sc m3 is clearly at an advantage but plenty of people would like to see some e9x SC m3's go at it
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      07-11-2010, 02:24 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiokenM3 View Post
im a car enthusiast like everyone else here, ess, aa, gintani and vf all make great kits. its all preference for who wants what. at the end of the day im happy i went with gintani and ess customers are all happy too. what i think everyone would like to see is some runs. ess should bring whatever car they want, gintani will bring some cars including my own and drew's and do some fun runs. since ess dynos almost the same as gintani's cars it should all be drivers races right? im sure robert with his stroked, sc m3 is clearly at an advantage but plenty of people would like to see some e9x SC m3's go at it
Racing is for boys. We are all after the science of it, ie who is most efficient!!

A tightly controlled and adjudicated dyno with cars running same boost!!
Races have too many other variables like drivers, tyres, reflexes etc. Dyno comparisons all together will bring tangible results.
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      07-11-2010, 02:57 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob MG View Post
Hi Drew

Superlative began this sliming match with his BS comment above. This only opened the door of correction from PG.

Per has a 6sp and perhaps is not the best of drivers.
Independent dynos are as best as we all can get when comparing whp.

One thing which has to be worth doing, and I cannot understand why you guys in the US have not done, is to take an ESS and competitors car with the same boost and fuel, and see who makes more.

Boost of 9,7-10 psi and water meth, to not make decidedly more than 600whp, begs the question why? Especially when ESS kits with ALOT LESS boost are making 590whp.

You said it above, the ESS 6psi kit makes 520whp, so even if you ignore the 7,5psi result of 590whp, how can you sanely justify 4psi more boost with water meth for 80whp??
Why would you get so defensive about what he thinks? Was it really that offensive Bob? That's his opinion, although I don't agree with him either, he certainly has the right to express it. But what followed was not an attempt to refute his claims about the v10 vs. FI, but rather the usual diatribe about ESS vs. the rest.

Per can't drive?

They have done dyno's here in the US, 6.5psi around 500-518whp, with a full exhaust. The ESS 594whp, STD CF, dyno is not independent it was done at ESS, if you look at the independent ESS dyno's at around 6.5psi they are 500-518whp. You add 1 psi and you get 580 SAE? One ESS dyno is 499 STD at 6.5psi, vs. 594 ESS dyno at 7.5psi, approx. 1 psi added near 100whp? If you really care about this objectively, this begs the question why?

"ALOT" less boost vs. Per's ESS dyno, hyperbole much? 1.5psi is ALOT? You can mix and match dyno charts in any fashion, look at the 499 STD CF, ESS dyno at 6.5psi, so with 3 - 3.5psi more, Ricky's Gintani made 601 STD, 102whp more, not too shabby.

FWIW I recently ran a 7.58s 60-130, on 91 only, about what I did on 91+Meth, although at 9psi I wouldn't recommend it at that octane level.
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ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi

Last edited by DLSJ5; 07-11-2010 at 03:02 PM.
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      07-11-2010, 03:18 PM   #21
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It's still fun though
But 579whp 9psi vs 518whp 6,5psi

Come on Drew, I like you and you are always fair. I'm happy you are happy, but 3,5psi plus meth for 61whp?

Do YOU think this is worth it for such little extra power?

Last edited by Bob MG; 07-11-2010 at 03:25 PM.
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      07-11-2010, 04:34 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob MG View Post
Racing is for boys. We are all after the science of it, ie who is most efficient!!

A tightly controlled and adjudicated dyno with cars running same boost!!
Races have too many other variables like drivers, tyres, reflexes etc. Dyno comparisons all together will bring tangible results.
racing for boys??? if it is, why would anyone including myself spend money on our cars, just to see how effecient it is? what fun is being a dynograph racer if it means nothing on the tracks or the street? i dont know about you but i dont care if i made more or less hp than the next guy, i care about is what i can do with myself behind the wheel. for instance drew, look at his car and his dynos, yes he makes great power but look at the cars he beats. hes taken out cars with more hp than him. thats where the fun is, not on paper
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