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      07-12-2010, 11:46 AM   #67
marcel b
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Not really. When Vettel tried to block, the two cars pretty much lined up wheel to wheel. That's not a matter of one driver leaving room for another. Vettel couldn't have pressed more to the right even if he wanted to unless he literally wanted to crash into Webber.

When Vettel went off, he was already pretty much passed by Webber; the cars were not lined up. I can't recall the details perfectly, but it seemed like Webber's left rear was ahead or almost ahead of Vettel right front. AND they were going into another corner. In that situation, Webber does not have to back off. He will naturally drive to the apex. Vettel needed to realize he was passed and back off instead. If they were more less side by side, that would have been another story, but they weren't.
look at the start again from Vettels car:


Vettel left quite some room, Webber zerro. It is not about backing off, it is about leaving space and not running your teammate of the track.
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      07-12-2010, 11:55 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
Applying your logic to Istanbul, Webber would have clearly been at fault. He was passed there, but didn't yeild.

The plain and simple of it is that Webber will take you to the wall whether you have the inside line or not, the lead or not. I view it as a very self righteous act, and am tiring of it. It's not racing anymore at that point.
That reminds me what he did to Rubens last year in German GP....
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      07-12-2010, 11:56 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
Applying your logic to Istanbul, Webber would have clearly been at fault. He was passed there, but didn't yeild.

The plain and simple of it is that Webber will take you to the wall whether you have the inside line or not, the lead or not. I view it as a very self righteous act, and am tiring of it. It's not racing anymore at that point.
I'd have to look at the details of the Istanbul scenario, but I don't recall Webber being behind Vettel when he moved to the left to block him. Based on the clip below, Webber was in front of Vettel when he moved to the left. He has the right to block the way Vettel tried to block him last Sunday.

See the initial portion of this (on board cameras can be misleading):



There is more than enough room for Vettel there on the left. I wouldn't say that Vettel actually passed Webber for good there. He seems to lose it under braking (that is a heavy braking zone IIRC) and turn into Webber, which is the main reason for the crash. If Vettel had kept his car straight, it would have been fine.

Webber is not easy to pass and defends well within the rules of the sport IMO. To the best of my knowledge, he was not penalized for illegal blocking in either scenario.

Last edited by lucid; 07-12-2010 at 12:36 PM.
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      07-12-2010, 12:02 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcel b View Post
look at the start again from Vettels car:


Vettel left quite some room, Webber zerro. It is not about backing off, it is about leaving space and not running your teammate of the track.
Disagree. Again Vettel would have had to steer sharply into Webber at the start and crash into him to stop him. Not a matter of simply holding the car on the racing line (as Webber did through and out of turn 1), or moving to the side slightly; it would have required a severe steering input to the right and even then that wouldn't have been enough. That's not about leaving him room since Webber is already there.
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      07-12-2010, 12:29 PM   #71
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When Weber pulled ahead before the apex, there was a slight pause from Vettle.
That's when he should have pulled in behind Weber.
But you could almost read his mind "fvck it, I'm going", he then accelerated again.
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      07-12-2010, 12:32 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
When Weber pulled ahead, there was a slight pause from Vettle.
That's when he should have pulled in behind Weber.
But you could almost read his mind "fvck it, I'm going", he then accelerated again.
Yes, my reading is that he clearly could not come to terms with the fact that he just handed over the racing line to Webber by blowing the start. He should have been patient and tried to regain the position later...
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      07-12-2010, 12:34 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
Tell me, what are the differences? Let me tell you, Hamilton still got a penalty despite giving back his track position, Alonso tho, did not.
he get a penalty because just after giving the position back, he went back of Kimi. If he didnt cut the chicane he never can go so closer to overtake on the straight. And he cut the corner because the previous overtaking attemp.



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Now I ask you, did Alonso cut the corner? Did he took an advantage after he cut the corner? Did he give the position back?
Kubica left him no room when he was slightly ahead or at least wheel to wheel. He did not gain a position by going off line. But thats my opinion.

But, admiting he do it wrong, what is a really disgrace on this subject is the penalty.
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      07-12-2010, 12:42 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Javi335 View Post
he get a penalty because just after giving the position back, he went back of Kimi. If he didnt cut the chicane he never can go so closer to overtake on the straight. And he cut the corner because the previous overtaking attemp.





Kubica left him no room when he was slightly ahead or at least wheel to wheel. He did not gain a position by going off line. But thats my opinion.

But, admiting he do it wrong, what is a really disgrace on this subject is the penalty.
To be honest...regardless who's ahead or not...the team (Stefano) should've told him to back off and give the position back immediately...then the whole penalty would've been avoided....

and Alonso should've known it better....

About 2008...FIA deemed Hamilton didn't give back "enough" advantage back to Kimi....that's why the penalty....
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      07-12-2010, 12:44 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
There is more than enough room for Vettel there on the left.
room enough? they are driving about 200mph at that point! And he got the other to make room as Vettel was faster and Hamilton was coming from behind.

The thing here is that they are teammates, and with teammates it is a different game then with other drivers. IMO 2 one-two victories for Red Bull where eliminated by the ego of Mark Webber.
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      07-12-2010, 12:50 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Disagree. Again Vettel would have had to steer sharply into Webber at the start and crash into him to stop him. Not a matter of simply holding the car on the racing line (as Webber did through and out of turn 1), or moving to the side slightly; it would have required a severe steering input to the right and even then that wouldn't have been enough. That's not about leaving him room since Webber is already there.
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      07-12-2010, 12:54 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcel b View Post
room enough? they are driving about 200mph at that point! And he got the other to make room as Vettel was faster and Hamilton was coming from behind.

The thing here is that they are teammates, and with teammates it is a different game then with other drivers. IMO 2 one-two victories for Red Bull where eliminated by the ego of Mark Webber.
Yes, there is room there. If you think they shouldn't be that close at 200mph, that is entirely Vettel's fault as he is taking a poorly calculated risk by diving in there. Look at what he does before he tries to dive in from the left. He is all over the place trying to find an opening. If he is confident enough to do that into a braking zone at 200mph, then he should be able to hold his car straight. Otherwise, it is just a reckless act and nothing more. The thing is even if Webber had moved all the way to the right and gave him room, Vettel was going in too hot, and most likely wouldn't have made that turn. That seems like just poor judgment and not being able to control his emotions; referred to as "red mist" on the track.

Team strategy is a another topic of discussion. Of course, the outcome of either scenario is not good for the team.
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      07-12-2010, 01:05 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
To be honest...regardless who's ahead or not...the team (Stefano) should've told him to back off and give the position back immediately...then the whole penalty would've been avoided....

and Alonso should've known it better....

About 2008...FIA deemed Hamilton didn't give back "enough" advantage back to Kimi....that's why the penalty....
We can always talk about circustances, but i look the results.

Ham overtakes a SC -....circumstances- he dont lose any position = result.

Alo cut a corner -....circumstances- he lose twelve = result

Cannot be amigo!.
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      07-12-2010, 01:08 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Javi335 View Post
We can always talk about circustances, but i look the results.

Ham overtakes a SC -....circumstances- he dont lose any position = result.

Alo cut a corner -....circumstances- he lose twelve = result

Cannot be amigo!.
But i do not think Penalties should given based on result....otherwise will be just pure game fix....
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      07-12-2010, 01:19 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Yes, there is room there. If you think they shouldn't be that close at 200mph, that is entirely Vettel's fault as he is taking a poorly calculated risk by diving in there. Look at what he does before he tries to dive in from the left. He is all over the place trying to find an opening. If he is confident enough to do that into a braking zone at 200mph, then he should be able to hold his car straight. Otherwise, it is just a reckless act and nothing more. The thing is even if Webber had moved all the way to the right and gave him room, Vettel was going in too hot, and most likely wouldn't have made that turn. That seems like just poor judgment and not being able to control his emotions; referred to as "red mist" on the track.

Team strategy is a another topic of discussion. Of course, the outcome of either scenario is not good for the team.
Vettel got the go from the team to overtake. He was clearly faster and for the team it was the best option to let Vettel pass Webber to ensure as much points as possible for the team (as Hamilton was coming). Webber was deliberately disobeying an order of the team and put Vettel in a difficult track position. Again, we are not talking about a normal overtaking here, these are two teammates and for me it shows Webber is not a teammate you want to have.
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      07-12-2010, 01:51 PM   #81
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for me it shows Webber is not a teammate you want to have.
That may very well be the case, but I'd make the same choices if I were in Webber's position. Even a highly talented driver does not get too many shots at winning a GP title, and I don't blame Webber for going out there and racing regardless of what his team manager wants him to do. That may or may not negatively affect his career options at the end of the season, but he's made his choice; he wants the title.
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      07-12-2010, 02:57 PM   #82
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      07-12-2010, 03:04 PM   #83
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My boy Hamilton is starting to peel away from the pack now !!!
Every race he is now getting strong results while the RBR boys fight each other off to the death and alternate wins and DNF's... Hamilton will keep getting consistent podiums and the occasional win ...

As for the British GP...

1. As much as I hate Webber, I feel his pain for being humiliated by the team .. How the heck do they take the nose of his car and give to it vettel?? he should not have signed with them and both these guys will lose out this year just like LH and Alonso did to each other in 2007

2. The mighty Ferrari are starting to sound like little bitches... stop the fuckin' whinning and MAN UP ... They are only to blame for not telling Alonso to concede the position back to Kubica immediately... What were they thinking? Deserved penalty there regardless of what it did to his race, he could have avoided it and chose not to

3. Go Hamilton go... Can't wait to see what Mclaren will do once they figure out the problems with the new exhaust and especially when they get to tracks that suit them such as Monza
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      07-12-2010, 04:15 PM   #84
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As much as I like the team, you are pouring it on a little thick with the LH and McLaren thing aren't you?
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      07-12-2010, 04:35 PM   #85
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I was hoping Jenson is going to take a fight with Nico....guess he remained his pace due to fuel consumption...
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      07-12-2010, 04:51 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Vettel had a lousy start and Webber took the racing line fair and square. Nobody pushed anyone off the track IMO. Vettel has himself to blame. He needs to stop acting and talking like a 15 year old every time he finds himself on the grass and get on with it.
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Agreed and if you look at footage right off the line, it was Vettle pushing Weber towards the wall.
I like Vettle, but he did this to himself.
Agree 100% and I am an SV fan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
When Weber pulled ahead before the apex, there was a slight pause from Vettle.
That's when he should have pulled in behind Weber.
But you could almost read his mind "fvck it, I'm going", he then accelerated again.
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Yes, my reading is that he clearly could not come to terms with the fact that he just handed over the racing line to Webber by blowing the start. He should have been patient and tried to regain the position later...
EXACTLY. A little patience on SV's part and he would likely have won this race in the end.
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      07-12-2010, 05:15 PM   #87
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Agree 100% and I am an SV fan.



EXACTLY. A little patience on SV's part and he would likely have won this race in the end.
reminded me LH Japanese GP 2008....trying to overtake Kimi, Felipe and everyone else on the first corner...then ran everyone wide eventually and serve a drive thru penalty....
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      07-12-2010, 11:06 PM   #88
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Let's just putthe driving aside. Does anybody else not like the new silverstone configuration?

Also can the guys at speed get over their Americanism and call the track by it's name and not silver-stone? I hate fox...
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