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      03-17-2014, 01:52 PM   #1
grantmax
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Wheel spacer vibration frustration (Macht Schnell content)

I'm looking for some input on a problem that has been a source of annoyance / frustration for quite some time. Wheel vibration after a front spacer install on my 2011 e92 ZCP.

Details:

1. Installed Macht Schnell 12mm spacers. (Install performed by Malek at MRF). Vibration noted on the drive home at or around 72mph.
2. Wheels balanced. Vibration continued.
3. Wheels balanced with spacer. Vibration became intermittent. Still at or around 72mph.
4. Installed Macht Schnell 15mm spacers. (Install performed by America's Tire Co.)
5. Wheels balanced with spacer. Vibration still intermittent.
6. Nail removed from tire. Wheels balanced without spacer. Vibration constant and significant.

This shouldn't be that difficult. What gives?
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      03-17-2014, 02:19 PM   #2
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Spacers make the car much more sensitive to wheel balance.

Make sure the shops are using a Hunter Road force balancer and are actually engaging the roadforce... I've seen a few cheap out and not use the roadforce function. Make sure they balance them up to 80mph.

You may have out of round tires, as well.
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      03-17-2014, 02:26 PM   #3
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Are they all using a Road Force balancer?
Are they actually trying to diagnosis a vibration problem or just doing a "wheel balance" per your request.

If they are trying to solve your problem there are additional measurements that can be done for wheel runout, hub runout, match mounting the tires, and road force balancing.

Watch the videos that I suggest here to understand the equipment then you will know what to watch for in the shop:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...5&postcount=19

Also read Malek's comments in post #16 on the same thread.
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      03-17-2014, 02:52 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitw View Post
Spacers make the car much more sensitive to wheel balance.

Make sure the shops are using a Hunter Road force balancer and are actually engaging the roadforce... I've seen a few cheap out and not use the roadforce function. Make sure they balance them up to 80mph.

You may have out of round tires, as well.
The Hunter Road Force wheel balancer uses a 300 rpm speed and cannot be adjusted to a specific MPH. That would be about 900 engine RPM with direct drive selected in the transmission with a 3:1 differential ratio. Manual Trans E9X M3 that's about 1000 engine RPM in 6th gear that's not 80 MPH.

You can change the weight setting to allow the technician to cut wheel weights to 1/10th ounce amounts instead averaging to quarter ounce sizes (values). Most technicians will not spend the time to custom cut wheel weights, I have for my own car and others where there is a high speed vibration problem.


I have seen tires that have been out-of-balance for long enough to wear the tires out-of-round... like the "Flintstones". Then it's usually time for another tire.
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      03-17-2014, 03:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grantmax View Post
I'm looking for some input on a problem that has been a source of annoyance / frustration for quite some time. Wheel vibration after a front spacer install on my 2011 e92 ZCP.

Details:

1. Installed Macht Schnell 12mm spacers. (Install performed by Malek at MRF). Vibration noted on the drive home at or around 72mph.
2. Wheels balanced. Vibration continued.
3. Wheels balanced with spacer. Vibration became intermittent. Still at or around 72mph.
4. Installed Macht Schnell 15mm spacers. (Install performed by America's Tire Co.)
5. Wheels balanced with spacer. Vibration still intermittent.
6. Nail removed from tire. Wheels balanced without spacer. Vibration constant and significant.

This shouldn't be that difficult. What gives?
Looks like you're local (we're in anaheim). Can you stop by and we'll take a look?
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      03-17-2014, 03:28 PM   #6
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I get the same thing from 80 to around 100 but not all the time, just on some surfaces.
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      03-17-2014, 03:32 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Looks like you're local (we're in anaheim). Can you stop by and we'll take a look?
PMed.

I'm willing to give it one more shot and then the spacers are coming off.
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      03-17-2014, 09:35 PM   #8
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- I am assuming we are talking about the front axle?

- Have you driven the car without spacers? Does the problem persist? If it does I would guess the tires are out of round - this can be tested with a road force machine. This is more common than you think but most cars are not as sensitive as the M3 so people never notice.

- How do you balance a wheel with spacers? Are you balancing it on the car somehow?

- When you tighten down wheels with spacers do it in the air and do several different "levels." I usually do: snug with a socket and extension (just "twirling" the extension by hand), then snug holding the ratchet in the palm of my hand and then third as tight as I can get it with the ratchet while holding the wheel from spinning in the air, and lastly let the wheel down as little as possible to prevent it from spinning and tighten with a torque wrench. Believe it or not this makes a difference.
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      03-21-2014, 01:13 PM   #9
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The saga continues.

Had all four wheels ROAD FORCE balanced Wednesday morning. The vibration under 45mph is gone. The vibration at or around 72mph is still there.

Points of interest:
1. Wheels are not bent. Road force balancer confirmed.
2. Tires are not out of round. Road force balancer confirmed.
3. Hub is free of debris. Confirmed with my own eyes during the wheel balance.

Fun fact - I noticed last night that at 72mph (or so) turning the wheel slightly can stop the vibration. A quick course correction within my lane or a longer sweeping curve seems to stop the shake. Sometimes.

Le sigh.
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      03-24-2014, 07:12 PM   #10
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This vibration you speak of is a known entity with the M3 and spacers. Typically occurs between 70-80 mph for most people. I have it right around 75. Goes away by 80. I started getting this after about 4000 miles with spacers. Mine is only very faintly felt through the steering wheel. I could live with it if I had to.

Something interesting happened, however. This winter, I pumped the tires up to 40 psi for winter storage. I just took the car out again and drove it without deflating the tires. No vibration whatsoever. Now, the back end did feel a little loose with the tires at that pressure, but the front felt fine. I will try running with slightly higher front pressure than what is recommended to see if that makes a difference in the vibration.
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      03-25-2014, 10:59 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grantmax View Post
The saga continues.

Had all four wheels ROAD FORCE balanced Wednesday morning. The vibration under 45mph is gone. The vibration at or around 72mph is still there.

Points of interest:
1. Wheels are not bent. Road force balancer confirmed.
2. Tires are not out of round. Road force balancer confirmed.
3. Hub is free of debris. Confirmed with my own eyes during the wheel balance.

Fun fact - I noticed last night that at 72mph (or so) turning the wheel slightly can stop the vibration. A quick course correction within my lane or a longer sweeping curve seems to stop the shake. Sometimes.

Le sigh.
If EAS is offering to help why don't you give them the opportunity to do so?
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      03-25-2014, 02:15 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Captain View Post
If EAS is offering to help why don't you give them the opportunity to do so?
UPDATE.

Tom @ EAS reached out to me via PM and had me bring my car by the shop yesterday. The problem is solved. My thanks to EAS for being so helpful and making the necessary changes for me at no cost. I also took the opportunity to add a Macht Schnell Drop-In Filter while I was there so it was a fun drive back to LA.

What were the necessary changes you ask? I needed to have my MS spacers swapped to the updated version without chamfering. The ZCP wheel is one that doesn't take well to the chamfer. Lesson learned.

Last edited by grantmax; 03-25-2014 at 02:23 PM.
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      03-25-2014, 02:33 PM   #13
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thanks for the update - I'm going to get EAS to check my spacer too.
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      03-26-2014, 12:51 PM   #14
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Good on EAS for helping you out with this issue and glad it was resolved!
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      04-23-2014, 12:30 PM   #15
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Are these the spacers without chamfering you are referring to?

http://europeanautosource.com/produc...-kit-15mm.html

The description still mentions chamfering, but from the images it looks to be only on the inside. I am having similar issues to you and I had to remove my spacers all together. I did try the spacers with my friends non ZCP rims and had the same problem, may be more than just ZCP rims are sensitive.
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      04-26-2014, 11:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grantmax View Post

Fun fact - I noticed last night that at 72mph (or so) turning the wheel slightly can stop the vibration. A quick course correction within my lane or a longer sweeping curve seems to stop the shake. Sometimes.

Le sigh.
you car is pretty new but...on my 2005 e46 m3, i had a vibration like you described, it was caused by a little loose in a ball joint, so i change both control arm (ball joint ar built in control arm) and the problem disapear.

at this time i was running turner 12 mm spacer rear and macht schnell 18mm front. i never get any vibration from them even on the track at any speed between 0 and 130 mph

get a little inspection of your suspension components, maybe something is worn and cause vibration
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