BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
BPM Sport
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-24-2010, 05:32 AM   #1
gr8000
Major
gr8000's Avatar
Greece
22
Rep
1,172
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3 - DCT
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens, Greece

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to gr8000
Water / Methanol Injection

Guys what do you think of this? Not necessarily for the S65, but in general for NA engines.

Will there be significant power gains with a 15% water / methanol injection? What are the downsides? Anyone has experience on this?

Comments, concerns & feedback are all much appreciated.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2010, 09:23 AM   #2
Scoobe
Lieutenant
Scoobe's Avatar
8
Rep
563
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 M3 Sedan SSII/SN/DCT
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 E90 M3  [5.00]
I'm only a little familiar when it was in aircraft, but it shortens the life of the motor as does most chemical injections, varied by the amount of use. Motors these days are designed to take long wear and over engineered, but only by a little bit. The extra pressure on the heads/valves will undoubtedly put more stress on the motor. But I would imagine if used only on occasion it could be fine.

It also generates additional heat and flash heat in the heads. Sometimes the rapid increase in heating can overcome the cooling and damage the valves. Again, the usual pitfalls of chemical performance injection.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2010, 11:37 AM   #3
donovan
Brigadier General
donovan's Avatar
Germany
73
Rep
3,548
Posts

 
Drives: E92 m3 AW, light package
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: le' Murica

iTrader: (12)

Interesting, I'm subscribing.
__________________


e46 m3 Black
Too many mods
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2010, 02:53 PM   #4
kitw
Colonel
kitw's Avatar
61
Rep
2,630
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 MW M3/2014 Boxster S
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (14)

I've never had good luck with making serious power out of NA motors with Meth. I've found that it provides great knock reduction and raises the effective octane of gasoline, but often times, knock isn't the limiting factor for NA cars. With forced induction, where intake air temps are much higher and combustion chamber pressures are increased, it makes a big difference, but I doubt you'd make significant power on our cars.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2010, 05:49 PM   #5
Eugene-TAIWAN
Brigadier General
Eugene-TAIWAN's Avatar
Taiwan
79
Rep
3,113
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Taiwan

iTrader: (4)

it will still help cooling down the motor
__________________

Past: Gintani stage3 M3
present: Porsche 993RWB, 964RS America,996 cupcar, 964 turbo 3.6, 991C4S, i3 in September
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2010, 06:34 PM   #6
donovan
Brigadier General
donovan's Avatar
Germany
73
Rep
3,548
Posts

 
Drives: E92 m3 AW, light package
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: le' Murica

iTrader: (12)

Yeah but we've all put an ice cube on the ground in 90 degree weather and watched how fast it melted. Basic physics says that cooling and reheating something rapidly over and over is bad. Who wants to test this on there new S65?

(slowly backing away)
__________________


e46 m3 Black
Too many mods
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2010, 09:54 PM   #7
Dartanium
Lieutenant
5
Rep
558
Posts

 
Drives: 09 E90 M3
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

I've dealt with methanol injection on turboed cars, more specifically on a 2.5L EJ257 STi where compressed air heats rapidly due to nature of turbos and heat soak. However I do not foresee any naturally aspirated application worth the risk of hydro locking motors with failed valve stuck open, or motor going way lean when the valve stuck close. There are plenty of check valves and safety measures but in case something goes wrong, the gains are too minimal compared to the risk that is undertaken. Personally would keep it purely on forced induction applications.

The benefits are actually very major, especially with additional cooling capabilities, of atomized methanol drops turning instantly into vapor before actually entering the combustion chambers cools the intake charge quite a bit, so think of it as an additional intercooler in chemical form. And the higher octane of the methanol fuel itself allows boosted application to run quite more pressure on pump gas, that is where the power is gained, the abilities to run say 3-4psi means 30-40whp on my application. Power gained are much higher on other applications where boost can be cranked even higher, say an EVO 8/9 with cams, power gains are signifcant enough to justify the risk of methanol failure. It is essentially playing with fire because mostly cylinder heads are alumium, or worse yet the entire block is composed of aluminum and methaol is corssive to alinium. Another problem is the lower boiling point of methonl, and its natural tendency to absorb moisture out of air, so keeping a dead on air-fuel ratio is hard if the fuel itself is changing properties. Lastly methanol also dilutes oil, so in case it is not 100% burned off, it will raise havoc on oil and recommend much lower oil change intervals.

Those are my findings.
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2010, 01:59 AM   #8
gr8000
Major
gr8000's Avatar
Greece
22
Rep
1,172
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3 - DCT
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens, Greece

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to gr8000
Many thanks for your feedback
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2010, 06:25 AM   #9
donovan
Brigadier General
donovan's Avatar
Germany
73
Rep
3,548
Posts

 
Drives: E92 m3 AW, light package
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: le' Murica

iTrader: (12)

Good shit.
cheers.
__________________


e46 m3 Black
Too many mods
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2010, 12:45 PM   #10
M II
United_States
28
Rep
1,210
Posts

 
Drives:
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: La Habra, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8000 View Post
Guys what do you think of this? Not necessarily for the S65, but in general for NA engines.

Will there be significant power gains with a 15% water / methanol injection? What are the downsides? Anyone has experience on this?

Comments, concerns & feedback are all much appreciated.

It's definitely something that helps more with the forced induction guys. But the beneifts are there.

Cooler IATs allow the tuners to run a more aggressive ignition setup and get more power out of the motor.
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2010, 01:09 PM   #11
m33
Banned
m33's Avatar
United_States
50
Rep
2,697
Posts

 
Drives: E92 VT650 MCB Individual
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: CT

iTrader: (5)

so its safe to say when adding meth to a supercharged car , it will raise Oct to reduce knock , keep motor cooler so you can safely advance timing in return will give you more HP ... it looks like its a added precautionary safety for forced induction cars reaching their limits on their setups ?
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2010, 01:41 PM   #12
M II
United_States
28
Rep
1,210
Posts

 
Drives:
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: La Habra, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
so its safe to say when adding meth to a supercharged car , it will raise Oct to reduce knock , keep motor cooler so you can safely advance timing in return will give you more HP ... it looks like its a added precautionary safety for forced induction cars reaching their limits on their setups ?
For Forced Induction setups, it's considered a safety blanket as well because you push the threshold of your tune that you normally couldn't do without the cooler charge temps.
Appreciate 0
      06-30-2010, 10:23 AM   #13
Malek@MRF
Brigadier General
Malek@MRF's Avatar
United_States
62
Rep
3,404
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3, E46 M3, F30, E30
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Irvine, California

iTrader: (5)

Send a message via AIM to Malek@MRF
Methanol has its main advantages in FI because of the ability to increase timing, not necessarily for just raising boost.

On a couple NA car's we have done testing on with relative scanning and diagnostic equipment, the car with straight methanol injection ran 6* of more timing on its own. That is a substantial amount of timing being added with a substantial amount of power. (Roughly 25 rwhp). This was on a 215 hp inline 6 motor.

On the S65 the gains will be beneficial, but don't rule out the corrosive properties of methanol along with the pressure added if water is added in the mix, as the water cannot compress.
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2010, 03:00 AM   #14
TMR
Colonel
TMR's Avatar
United_States
49
Rep
2,893
Posts

 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Torrance

iTrader: (11)

a good question is does the M3 gain power from putting in race gas? If the factory ECU will add timing when running race gas then it will add timing with meth and thus make more power. With all that being said, where would you guys put the meth bung on the the M3?
__________________
2015 M3 BPM Tuned, Eibach, Magnaflow and more www.tmrmzine.com/m3/f80
SOLD E92 Slēk Carbon Fiber Widebody M3 www.tmrmzine.com/m3/slek/
SOLD E92 335i Stage 3+ with all the toys www.tmrmzine.com/335/
SOLD E39 M5 Modded, What a great car! www.tmrmzine.com/m5/
Appreciate 0
      11-25-2010, 07:11 PM   #15
onefastman
Major General
72
Rep
5,698
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 135i 2011 e92m dct
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Earth

iTrader: (15)

In the intake pipe, will put methanol in the new e92 once I get a ess kit on it, maybe before.

There are very few risks with methanol if done properly. I run it full time on my 135i with a m10 injector at 200psi (a heck of a lot of spray) with zero issues. I have run 100% water at the track and 100% meth at the strip, both with zero error. It is only corosive when it sits and considering it is evaporated right away it does not sit any where.

Ask Berk Technology (1addicts race guys) about methanol. Or just email coolingmist (meth company)
__________________
Legal Disclaimer: Anything I or anyone else says about my vehicle on this website(1addicts.com or any affiliated or nonaffiliated sites), pertaining to modifications, is only to gain acceptance from my/our peers, and does not actually represent anything actually existing on my car, and thus, cannot be held against me in any issues, i.e. warranty claims, that may arise.
Appreciate 0
      11-27-2010, 11:22 AM   #16
TMR
Colonel
TMR's Avatar
United_States
49
Rep
2,893
Posts

 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Torrance

iTrader: (11)

Ive been running meth in my 335i for a long time. But always on a turbo car, now i want to try it for the octane effect on a NA M3.
__________________
2015 M3 BPM Tuned, Eibach, Magnaflow and more www.tmrmzine.com/m3/f80
SOLD E92 Slēk Carbon Fiber Widebody M3 www.tmrmzine.com/m3/slek/
SOLD E92 335i Stage 3+ with all the toys www.tmrmzine.com/335/
SOLD E39 M5 Modded, What a great car! www.tmrmzine.com/m5/
Appreciate 0
      11-27-2010, 11:50 PM   #17
onefastman
Major General
72
Rep
5,698
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 135i 2011 e92m dct
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Earth

iTrader: (15)

Same here!


I will go with a small nozzle and 100% meth
__________________
Legal Disclaimer: Anything I or anyone else says about my vehicle on this website(1addicts.com or any affiliated or nonaffiliated sites), pertaining to modifications, is only to gain acceptance from my/our peers, and does not actually represent anything actually existing on my car, and thus, cannot be held against me in any issues, i.e. warranty claims, that may arise.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:27 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST