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      06-27-2010, 08:55 AM   #67
DenverJayhawk
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They suck. End of story. There is no reason to shoot one or own one.
I'm clearly not an expert, but why do they suck? Didn't they do a test and fired over 15k rounds out of one model without a misfire or lock? People hated the M16 at first too.

Separate question....what do you guys think about a Walther PPK?
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      06-27-2010, 01:10 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
I'm clearly not an expert, but why do they suck? Didn't they do a test and fired over 15k rounds out of one model without a misfire or lock? People hated the M16 at first too.

Separate question....what do you guys think about a Walther PPK?
That's because the M16 really did suck, haha. The M16A1 was a piece of dung.
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      06-27-2010, 01:12 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
I'm clearly not an expert, but why do they suck? Didn't they do a test and fired over 15k rounds out of one model without a misfire or lock? People hated the M16 at first too.

Separate question....what do you guys think about a Walther PPK?
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That's because the M16 really did suck, haha. The M16A1 was a piece of dung.
I carry a PPK. That's my review.

Yeah m16A1 was a POS.

M9's shoot like shit. Stupid DA/SA system. Terrible ergonomics. Too big. Barrel is rubish. Etc. Etc. I hate hate hate the sights.
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      06-27-2010, 02:03 PM   #70
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      06-27-2010, 02:09 PM   #71
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If all American children were armed with an M16 then we wouldn't get these school shootings. Time to get them all tooled up then they'd truly be safe.
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      06-27-2010, 03:26 PM   #72
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M16A1 had reliability issues. The M16A4 is a solid battle rifle, but 3 round burst is terrible. The auto fire setting is much smoother. The 5.56x45mm is not a bad cartridge its just that the military uses a 55 grn when it should be 75-80 grn.

I'm a M14 guy though.
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      06-27-2010, 03:55 PM   #73
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I bow to your superior knowledge on assault rifles!

Personally I don't get the whole gun thing but never mind. In my 33 years of living I've never been sHot at, had a knife pulled on me, been assaulted, mugged, burgled or threatened physically in any way. That includes a few years living in a not very nice area of London, walking around at night drunk and using night buses. We've had crime falling every year since 93. If you need guns to feel safe isn't that a sad indictment on society?
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      06-27-2010, 05:30 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Rochdale Pioneers View Post
I bow to your superior knowledge on assault rifles!

Personally I don't get the whole gun thing but never mind. In my 33 years of living I've never been sHot at, had a knife pulled on me, been assaulted, mugged, burgled or threatened physically in any way. That includes a few years living in a not very nice area of London, walking around at night drunk and using night buses. We've had crime falling every year since 93. If you need guns to feel safe isn't that a sad indictment on society?
It's called a gun enthusiast. Just like cars. Do you need a 500hp M3 to get to work and the store? No.

Not flaming. I understand your point of view 100%. It's very unlikely that any of those things would ever happen, but if they do (Shit happens) then you will be prepared. Whether it's you defending your own life, or the life of an innocent.

I never carry a gun unless I am in a bad area. I do keep a pistol in my car and several guns strategically located in my house.
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      06-28-2010, 04:14 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Rochdale Pioneers View Post
I bow to your superior knowledge on assault rifles!

Personally I don't get the whole gun thing but never mind. In my 33 years of living I've never been sHot at, had a knife pulled on me, been assaulted, mugged, burgled or threatened physically in any way. That includes a few years living in a not very nice area of London, walking around at night drunk and using night buses. We've had crime falling every year since 93. If you need guns to feel safe isn't that a sad indictment on society?
bro your absolutely right but its different here. America is completely savage compared to most modern first world countries. We have more murders than all of Western Europe combined. Only savage places like south africa, colombia, thailand, mexico, zimbabwe have more murders per capita than the U.S. Thats a shame because were a technologically advanced, first world country. That being said if its gonna be my ass or some one elses ass who takes a fancy to my BMW or wants to break into my house to take my LCD TV, guess whos comin out on top.
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      06-28-2010, 08:20 AM   #76
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In almost all the forums I go to, non-american members always wonder why america is into guns. For me, I am gun enthusiast. I like to the shooting range routinely. I also like having the peace of mind in situations that are less than ideal.
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      06-28-2010, 10:47 AM   #77
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M9's shoot like shit. Stupid DA/SA system. Terrible ergonomics. Too big. Barrel is rubish. Etc. Etc. I hate hate hate the sights.
+1 to this. Sights suck, difficult to get on target quickly (Glock is great for getting on target fast), the trigger pull is vague and inconsistant from what I recall.
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      06-28-2010, 11:27 AM   #78
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oh yeah... I always hated the M9 design too. That gun is just too damn big.

I know Glocks are reliable but I just cant get used to the grip angle of the gun. I have muscle memory with 1911 style grips and can easily acquire targets with my guns, and even with an XD. But when I try to rapid fire a Glock, I always end up grouping higher. This is why I stick with 1911s only.
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      06-28-2010, 11:31 AM   #79
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oh yeah... I always hated the M9 design too. That gun is just too damn big.

I know Glocks are reliable but I just cant get used to the grip angle of the gun. I have muscle memory with 1911 style grips and can easily acquire targets with my guns, and even with an XD. But when I try to rapid fire a Glock, I always end up grouping higher. This is why I stick with 1911s only.
With the exception of my .22 I have fed more rounds through my 1911 then any of my other guns, it is my favorite hands down. My S&W revolvers are a close second.
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      06-28-2010, 01:15 PM   #80
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1911's Glocks and S&W revolvers FTW!
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      06-28-2010, 01:55 PM   #81
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In almost all the forums I go to, non-american members always wonder why america is into guns. For me, I am gun enthusiast. I like to the shooting range routinely. I also like having the peace of mind in situations that are less than ideal.
I am fine with guns as a hobby - its a sport, its (so I'm told) relaxing, and you always have "my gun is better than your gun" discussions like cars or anything similar.

I struggle with the "I need guns to protect me against people with guns" argument. I get that America is different to pretty much every other country i that way, I just don't get why.
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      06-28-2010, 02:18 PM   #82
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I am fine with guns as a hobby - its a sport, its (so I'm told) relaxing, and you always have "my gun is better than your gun" discussions like cars or anything similar.

I struggle with the "I need guns to protect me against people with guns" argument. I get that America is different to pretty much every other country i that way, I just don't get why.
For our foreign friends who don't understand:

I appreciate a nice gun in the same way that I appreciate a fine watch, or vintage car or a classic wooden boat. They are beautiful pieces of industrial art. Purely mechanical, machined with precision, the very definition of a well oiled machine. The bolt of a rifle has come to define the feeling of a smooth sure action.

Another reason that guns are interesting to me is manufacturing. People think of Henry Ford when they think about early assembly lines and mass production, yes and no. You can thank gun manufacturers for standardization of parts and the foundation mass production as we know it today.

I think that guns are so engrained in our culture because this is a relatively young country, and it is a country that was founded by the gun and our ability to make and use the gun. In Europe you have history and Castles that predate the gun, we do not. We have ‘ghost towns’ and mining camps that you can still visit today so it’s easier to imagine how it used to be. Hollywood has also done a great job of romanticizing that period of time. If you think about it the “West” was Wild 120 - 130 years ago, not really very long. Every kid plays Cowboys and Indians, one of the earliest toys in my memory is a Single Action Style Cap Gun.

IMO – a lot of the protection rhetoric is cooked up to rally gun owners so we can keep our right to keep our guns. There is truth to it, and I have a loaded Glock by my bed, but it is because of lawyers, lobbyists and politians trying to take our rights away that pro-gun people have to go to extremes with their rhetoric (and occasionally sound foolish) to get voters to protect what we have.
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      06-28-2010, 05:03 PM   #83
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IMO – a lot of the protection rhetoric is cooked up to rally gun owners so we can keep our right to keep our guns. There is truth to it, and I have a loaded Glock by my bed, but it is because of lawyers, lobbyists and politians trying to take our rights away that pro-gun people have to go to extremes with their rhetoric (and occasionally sound foolish) to get voters to protect what we have.
So you keep a loaded gun by your bed because you're worried the government might take it away? Why?

Again, I think there must be a different cultural thing going on. I've never been burgled so wouldn't need a gun. Even if I was burgled they don't carry guns and tend not to creep into occupied bedrooms. So i you have one as a symbolic thing then fine. If its to protect you against armed intruders is part of the reason why they're armed because they think they may find someone armed with a loaded Glock by their pillow? You appear to have a major crime problem if you *need* a gun for protection.
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      06-28-2010, 05:11 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Rochdale Pioneers View Post
So you keep a loaded gun by your bed because you're worried the government might take it away? Why?

Again, I think there must be a different cultural thing going on. I've never been burgled so wouldn't need a gun. Even if I was burgled they don't carry guns and tend not to creep into occupied bedrooms. So i you have one as a symbolic thing then fine. If its to protect you against armed intruders is part of the reason why they're armed because they think they may find someone armed with a loaded Glock by their pillow? You appear to have a major crime problem if you *need* a gun for protection.

I have several guns for sport and they will double as protection should the situation ever arise. In the US armed intruders are not armed because they think they may find someone with a loaded glock by their pillow, they are armed because they want to inflict fear and have the upper hand so whomever it is they are trying to rob will give into their demands.

I just feel bad for the unlucky bastard who forcibly enters my private residence; he/she will only briefly hear the sound of the trigger mechanism releasing the hammer before becoming incapacitated. The way I see it, if you break into my house and put my family and I in danger, you signed your own death certificate the moment you made that conscious decision.

In my eyes, and I'm sure many others will agree: It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
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      06-28-2010, 05:17 PM   #85
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So you keep a loaded gun by your bed because you're worried the government might take it away? Why?
No, I keep a loaded gun by my bed because I would feel really stupid if I needed to defend my home and all of my guns were locked up in my gun safe in the garage.
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      06-28-2010, 05:31 PM   #86
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Quote:
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So you keep a loaded gun by your bed because you're worried the government might take it away? Why?

Again, I think there must be a different cultural thing going on. I've never been burgled so wouldn't need a gun. Even if I was burgled they don't carry guns and tend not to creep into occupied bedrooms. So i you have one as a symbolic thing then fine. If its to protect you against armed intruders is part of the reason why they're armed because they think they may find someone armed with a loaded Glock by their pillow? You appear to have a major crime problem if you *need* a gun for protection.
It is most certainly a difference of culture. Many Europeans now look to their governments for everything, "cradle to grave". The history of America is founded on the pioneering spirit, the desire to be self-reliant. Sadly, as our country gets older, it becomes more and more like Europe, with everybody wanting "cradle to grave" coddling. No thanks.

And finally, with respect to crime, let's look at some specifics. According to the Home Office report on Crime for 2008/2009, "Police recorded crime" was measured at 4.7 million crimes (page 2.) On Page 6, it details the percentage breakdown of the various categories. It shows that "Violence against the person" was 19% of the total, "Sexual offences" were 1% and "Robbery" was 2%. That comes to 22% of the total of 4.7 millions crimes for a "Violent crime" tally of 1,034,000.

The FBI defines "Violent crime" like this: "violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault." According to the FBI, in 2008 Violent crimes were committed 1,382,012 times, which is nearly 350,000 more violent crimes than seen in the UK and Wales. So the UK/Wales must be safer than the USA, right?

Source: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/offe...ime/index.html
Source: http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdf...sb1109summ.pdf


BUT!!!! Let's look at those rates per 100,000 population. Population figures sourced from: https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/uk.html
UK 2010 Est. Population: 61,284,806.
US 2010 Est. Population: 310,232,863.

So the UK has roughly 1,687 violent crimes per 100,000 people while the US has only 445 violent crimes per 100,000 people. You are FOUR times more likely to be a victim of violent crime in the UK than the US! How can that be, with all the "gun-crazed lunatics thinking it is the wild west" over here? Maybe because your criminals don't have much to fear in the way of committing crime?

You even have news articles over there lamenting the fact that the UK has the highest crime rate in Europe, and that it is even higher than the US or South Africa (!!): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...frica-U-S.html
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      06-28-2010, 05:40 PM   #87
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We cant legally got a gun in almost all Europe. Damn, our democracys are so decadent!
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      06-28-2010, 07:08 PM   #88
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Quote:
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I have several guns for sport and they will double as protection should the situation ever arise. In the US armed intruders are not armed because they think they may find someone with a loaded glock by their pillow, they are armed because they want to inflict fear and have the upper hand so whomever it is they are trying to rob will give into their demands.

I just feel bad for the unlucky bastard who forcibly enters my private residence; he/she will only briefly hear the sound of the trigger mechanism releasing the hammer before becoming incapacitated. The way I see it, if you break into my house and put my family and I in danger, you signed your own death certificate the moment you made that conscious decision.

In my eyes, and I'm sure many others will agree: It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
+1

If you break into my place, I'm assuming you're armed. I'm not going to stop to ask an intruder questions, and I'm not waiting for an intruder to make the first move either.
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