BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
ESS Tuning
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-19-2010, 01:30 PM   #1
cap_freez
Lead, follow, or get the hell out of my way
cap_freez's Avatar
Canada
13
Rep
428
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 X3, 2013 RS5
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montréal, oh Canada

iTrader: (0)

M3 Torque opinion

hey Guys,

This is not a post to start another thread complaining about the M3's engine torque a low rpm but rather a different take on it.

Most of the complaints you hear are that the M3's torque Vs the 335 make the latter the better DD. But I don't understand that. see, a car that pushes hard very early forces me to drive fast all the time, but a car with the torque characteristics of the M3 can actually let me choose my type of driving better. The low torque down lets you cruise around if you wish and if you want to floor it... you can.

so I feel the M3 is the better DD vs the 335. Just a thought.
__________________
2010 X3
2013 RS5
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2010, 01:34 PM   #2
J08M3
Major General
J08M3's Avatar
United_States
102
Rep
6,012
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 M3 COUPE
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NEW YORK

iTrader: (8)

I don't think it makes much difference at all.... I've driven cars with a lot of torque, and some with a lot less. Never had an issue daily driving either
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2010, 01:52 PM   #3
raiste
Time is the fire in which we burn.
raiste's Avatar
United_States
1
Rep
161
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 M3 E92
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SC

iTrader: (2)

There's plenty of torque for me. When I put my foot down, it goes. Maybe not as fast or as hard as others, but plenty for everyday driving.


.
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2010, 01:55 PM   #4
Eau Rouge
Captain
Eau Rouge's Avatar
United_States
14
Rep
991
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 E92 M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Florida's Emerald Coast

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2012 BMW E92 M3  [4.50]
Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
I don't think it makes much difference at all.... I've driven cars with a lot of torque, and some with a lot less. Never had an issue daily driving either
+1

It's all about the right foot and what you do with it.
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2010, 02:07 PM   #5
Scoobe
Lieutenant
Scoobe's Avatar
8
Rep
563
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 M3 Sedan SSII/SN/DCT
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 E90 M3  [5.00]
low end pull is useful of you have a narrow power range, but since M3 has 8400 rpm to play with, it's not as critical.
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2010, 02:22 PM   #6
Finnegan
Major General
Finnegan's Avatar
United_States
80
Rep
6,507
Posts

 
Drives: Sapphire Black/Black Z4Mc
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: At the track..or wishing I were at the track

iTrader: (18)

OP, if you're happy, great! That's all the matters (really).

I've already said everything I ever want to say on this topic. Now I'm going to sit back and watch.

Appreciate 0
      06-19-2010, 02:30 PM   #7
GewoW
#thatsanicemovebro
GewoW's Avatar
Greece
69
Rep
3,839
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3 LSB/Black 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montreal, Canada

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2011 BMW M3  [4.67]
Send a message via Skype™ to GewoW
I love it. I think it's not much different than the 335, at least in how I drive...I don't care. It's just not fast if you're going like 80 (km/h) in 6th, but more of an excuse to downshift
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2010, 03:29 PM   #8
Bubbles
Brigadier General
Bubbles's Avatar
Cayman Islands
86
Rep
3,560
Posts

 
Drives: Green Bastard
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bishop Bend

iTrader: (3)

I've owned and 335i torque monster, but prefer the M3. No torque issues.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2010, 06:35 PM   #9
e1000
that's what SHE said!
11
Rep
1,076
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 E92 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: OC

iTrader: (1)

oof. torque means absolutely nothing without gearing.
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2010, 11:06 PM   #10
Alex1911
Second Lieutenant
3
Rep
210
Posts

 
Drives: M3 Sedan 2011
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

I'm a novice and new... But, who cares!?! The M3 is fun to drive and a good daily driver/around town, a great "all around" car. You can go balls to the wall, or be very sedate, the car is plenty fast.

All this torque talk, I find a bit silly... I first got it from a guy driving a Corvette (the consummate middle/late age, gold chain wearing, top four buttons unbuttoned on a tacky shirt, bad hair cut, 100% tipping at Hooters, car).

My truck as more torque for gawdsake! It's a car enjoy it for what it is, there will always be something better... But, there are a whole lot that are worse.
Appreciate 0
      06-19-2010, 11:18 PM   #11
saeedg48
Brigadier General
Iran
132
Rep
3,499
Posts

 
Drives: 12 CLS63 + 14 M6 C
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Unknown

iTrader: (1)

it's like a sport bike. revs high and has the power through the band. here's the deal; it's just not fun unless you're in an open** road and you're driving the piss out of it. otherwise it driver like a normal car. wether that's a good or bad thing that's your decision. don't forget the m3 isn't suppose to compete against it's smaller brother the 335 but against the C63, which has mountains of more power down low. in orange county california the m3 is the perfect thing but for a place with even light traffic the m3 just doesn't work..
__________________


2008 M3 Sedan + TestPipes + Tune [sold]

2012 CLS63 AMG + P30 Performance Package
2014 M6 Coupe + AMS Downpipes + KW V3
Appreciate 0
      06-20-2010, 12:43 AM   #12
J08M3
Major General
J08M3's Avatar
United_States
102
Rep
6,012
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 M3 COUPE
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NEW YORK

iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by saeedg48 View Post
. in orange county california the m3 is the perfect thing but for a place with even light traffic the m3 just doesn't work..
mine works fine in traffic
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-21-2010, 10:38 AM   #13
Donbona
Lieutenant Colonel
Donbona's Avatar
United Kingdom
40
Rep
1,668
Posts

 
Drives: E93 M3 DCT 2008
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London UK

iTrader: (0)

Supercharge it.... bye bye lack of low end torque!!
__________________
M3 E93 DCT, Space Grey,BC HB29 Forged Deep Concave Wheels, Ericsson Amuse F/R Bumper, Evolve Full Exhaust System, INTRAX Coilovers, STOPTECH BBK, Performance Steering Wheel,Custom Red/Black Leather Seats,///M3 ||Bimmerpost M3 Car Of The Month May - 2010SOLD
2010 R35 GTR
Appreciate 0
      06-21-2010, 08:08 PM   #14
ChitownM3
Lieutenant
10
Rep
489
Posts

 
Drives: 2001 SS Camaro
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Burbs of Chicago

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
oof. torque means absolutely nothing without gearing.
Exactly. The M3 actually has a lot more torque per gear than the 335, so the whole torque argument is bull shit.
Appreciate 0
      06-21-2010, 09:00 PM   #15
CarForHire
Major
CarForHire's Avatar
United_States
14
Rep
1,298
Posts

 
Drives: Slow in the left lane.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NOVA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2007 E90 328i  [0.00]
I think everyone is just so used to the N54/N55. I never thought the car needed more torque. It's the same with the N52, people are just too used to the 335.
__________________
Race car driving is like sex...all men think they are good at it. - Jay Leno
Appreciate 0
      06-21-2010, 10:01 PM   #16
M3V8Driver
Captain
M3V8Driver's Avatar
United_States
17
Rep
727
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3 - DCT
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
I've owned and 335i torque monster, but prefer the M3. No torque issues.
"torque monster"? The difference in torque between the 335i and M3 is 5 ft-lbs. You cannot feel that difference in a 3500+ pound car. Now the 335d, THAT is a torque monster. But guess what, it doesn't make it faster than the M3 either.
__________________
Mmmm... M&Ms,
Dale
Appreciate 0
      06-21-2010, 10:09 PM   #17
GewoW
#thatsanicemovebro
GewoW's Avatar
Greece
69
Rep
3,839
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3 LSB/Black 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montreal, Canada

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2011 BMW M3  [4.67]
Send a message via Skype™ to GewoW
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3V8Driver View Post
"torque monster"? The difference in torque between the 335i and M3 is 5 ft-lbs. You cannot feel that difference in a 3500+ pound car. Now the 335d, THAT is a torque monster. But guess what, it doesn't make it faster than the M3 either.
The issue is not the total torque, it's where it comes in.

335 @ 1400 rpm
M3 @ 3000+
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-21-2010, 10:26 PM   #18
Bubbles
Brigadier General
Bubbles's Avatar
Cayman Islands
86
Rep
3,560
Posts

 
Drives: Green Bastard
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bishop Bend

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3V8Driver View Post
"torque monster"? The difference in torque between the 335i and M3 is 5 ft-lbs. You cannot feel that difference in a 3500+ pound car. Now the 335d, THAT is a torque monster. But guess what, it doesn't make it faster than the M3 either.

I came from a tuned 335i, that produced well above stock numbers, but it also went thru three sets of turbos.

I am very happy with my M3.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-21-2010, 11:32 PM   #19
piloto
Captain
10
Rep
835
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3 - AW/FR
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (0)

Being a non-turbo engine, the S65's specific toruqe is 73.75 lb-ft/liter. The highest of any road going car is the new Ferrari 458's 89 lb-ft/liter, but I doubt the 458's engine is as long lasting and reliable as the S65. By comparison, the M159 in the E63 (the H.O. version) puts out 77.31 lb-ft/liter (it's rated at 480 lb-ft of torque out of 6.2 Liters). So the M159's specific torque output is a little higher (4.8%), yet the S65's specific power out is much higher (13%) at 103.5 hp/L, compared to the M159's 90.8 hp/L.

Not that the M159 isn't a great engine (who doesn't like 563 HP and 480 lb-ft), but it helps put in perspective how good the S65 truly is. Both engines have a fairly flat torque curve from 3500 rpm onwards, and last I checked 295lb-ft of torque was plenty. And as others have stated, the car is geared properly to exploit the torque that it has. Plus, there's no point in having more torque if it's going to unsettle the car coming out of corners. There has to be a balance, and the engineers seem to have struck that with the M3.
Appreciate 0
      06-21-2010, 11:39 PM   #20
Dntlvet
Dntlvet
Dntlvet's Avatar
United_States
6
Rep
448
Posts

 
Drives: 10 M3 Sedan,13 GT-R BE,13 Pors
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Wisconsin

iTrader: (0)

The torque works very well for me on DD.
Appreciate 0
      06-22-2010, 02:12 AM   #21
e1000
that's what SHE said!
11
Rep
1,076
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 E92 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: OC

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
Exactly. The M3 actually has a lot more torque per gear than the 335, so the whole torque argument is bull shit.
Someone who understands!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GewoW View Post
The issue is not the total torque, it's where it comes in.

335 @ 1400 rpm
M3 @ 3000+
The issue is not torque at all, it's horsepower. The guys that focus on torque figures are just knowledge enough to be dangerous, but don't know enough to really comprehend the relationship between horsepower (work), torque (force), acceleration and gearing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piloto View Post
Being a non-turbo engine, the S65's specific toruqe is 73.75 lb-ft/liter. The highest of any road going car is the new Ferrari 458's 89 lb-ft/liter, but I doubt the 458's engine is as long lasting and reliable as the S65. By comparison, the M159 in the E63 (the H.O. version) puts out 77.31 lb-ft/liter (it's rated at 480 lb-ft of torque out of 6.2 Liters). So the M159's specific torque output is a little higher (4.8%), yet the S65's specific power out is much higher (13%) at 103.5 hp/L, compared to the M159's 90.8 hp/L.

Not that the M159 isn't a great engine (who doesn't like 563 HP and 480 lb-ft), but it helps put in perspective how good the S65 truly is. Both engines have a fairly flat torque curve from 3500 rpm onwards, and last I checked 295lb-ft of torque was plenty. And as others have stated, the car is geared properly to exploit the torque that it has. Plus, there's no point in having more torque if it's going to unsettle the car coming out of corners. There has to be a balance, and the engineers seem to have struck that with the M3.
I never understood why people argued about specific power output ratings. They mean very little. Only gearheads will ever care about hp/L. Simply put, at the end of the day, the performance of an engine is all that counts.
Appreciate 0
      06-22-2010, 02:36 AM   #22
piloto
Captain
10
Rep
835
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3 - AW/FR
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (0)

Certainly, while it's performance that counts at the end of the day, it's not the engine's performance, but that of the car as a whole that matters. So let's take into account, HP, torque, weight, gearing, the overall drivetrain, and the chassis. Specific power output is still a great indication of the engine's design, as is specific torque. And yes, I'm a gearhead, as are many on this forum. Would you rather have a LS3 under the M3's hood? The LS3 is a fantastic engine, but it's not in character with the M3. The S65, with it's high specific HP and specific torque make it a gem, and the perfect pairing with the E9X M3 chassis.

Last edited by piloto; 06-22-2010 at 02:43 AM.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:05 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST