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      06-10-2010, 11:58 PM   #1
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Arrow Technical White Paper: Race and Street Brake Pads 101

Here are a series of articles from Essex, a brake parts distributor for professional and amateur race cars.

1. How to Bed-in Brake Pads and Rotors
http://www.essexparts.com/learning-c...ds/post/Bed-in
In this article the author talks about why and how to bed-in new brake pads.

2. Swapping Between Street and Race Brake Pads
http://www.essexparts.com/learning-c.../swapping_pads

In short, Essex suggests that it may be a good idea to scrub off the original pad material of a different pad from the rotor before bedding in your new pads. This way, you can avoid vibration, judder, and uneven pad deposits.

I personally feel this is a bit excessive for the recreational track enthusiasts. But it is probably very important for those who push their brakes to the limit.

Good information to know nonetheless.

3. How to Choose the Best Street and Track Brake Pads
http://www.essexparts.com/learning-c...ose-brake-pads

There is rarely a one-size-fits-all brake pad. Here's why.
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      06-11-2010, 01:08 PM   #2
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Very very very good info - always had issues when I switched out pads from race to street application.

I like how they keep things simple and practical with the explanation

Thank you very much for sharing!

Just a note - be careful when deposits build up on your rotors from track sessions, make sure you get them off immediately with race pads if not the deposits will be caked into the rotors and they have to be replaced. I had a tough time with that on a set of HAWK HP+ on the track - realized that there's no point running street/track pads, you're better of with street pads and a separate race pad.
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      06-11-2010, 04:37 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rzm3 View Post
I personally feel this is a bit excessive for the recreational track enthusiasts. But it is probably very important for those who push their brakes to the limit.
I may be one of those people that pushes his brakes to the limit, but I've found this to be EXTREMELY valuable advice, because mixing pad compounds often results in judder from brake material built up. However, sanding is not enough to remove this. It's usually best to find compatible brake material so you don't need to worry about this. I'd say that 95% of the people who say that they "warped rotors" at the track haven't actually warped there rotors and are actually seeing uneven pad material build up on the rotors.
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      06-13-2010, 10:07 AM   #4
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This should be a STICKY post. Thanks.


Cheers.
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      06-13-2010, 10:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitw View Post
I may be one of those people that pushes his brakes to the limit, but I've found this to be EXTREMELY valuable advice, because mixing pad compounds often results in judder from brake material built up. However, sanding is not enough to remove this. It's usually best to find compatible brake material so you don't need to worry about this. I'd say that 95% of the people who say that they "warped rotors" at the track haven't actually warped there rotors and are actually seeing uneven pad material build up on the rotors.
when running the oem brake pads under hard track sessions, i have noticed this judder in the brake pedal after the sessions. i thought that i wrapped the rotor as well. but it goes away after driving 2 or 3 days on the street. so theres definitely uneven pad transfer happening on my rotor surface.
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      06-13-2010, 11:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal red View Post
when running the oem brake pads under hard track sessions, i have noticed this judder in the brake pedal after the sessions. i thought that i wrapped the rotor as well. but it goes away after driving 2 or 3 days on the street. so theres definitely uneven pad transfer happening on my rotor surface.
Yup this is very common. The OEM pads basically start to melt onto the rotors at higher temperatures. Goes away after a few days or weeks on the street.
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      06-14-2010, 04:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitw View Post
I may be one of those people that pushes his brakes to the limit, but I've found this to be EXTREMELY valuable advice, because mixing pad compounds often results in judder from brake material built up. However, sanding is not enough to remove this. It's usually best to find compatible brake material so you don't need to worry about this. I'd say that 95% of the people who say that they "warped rotors" at the track haven't actually warped there rotors and are actually seeing uneven pad material build up on the rotors.
So how exactly do we find a compatible material?

For instance, I went from OEM to Carbotechs (bedded-in with 5-6 stops from 100mph) and still got significant judder at the track. It's possible other factors played in but it would be nice to find out exactly what aftermarket pad compounds are compatible with the OEM's...
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      06-14-2010, 06:55 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
So how exactly do we find a compatible material?

For instance, I went from OEM to Carbotechs (bedded-in with 5-6 stops from 100mph) and still got significant judder at the track. It's possible other factors played in but it would be nice to find out exactly what aftermarket pad compounds are compatible with the OEM's...
You don't.

Basically the article calls for completely scrubbing off your original transfer layer from the rotor using aggressive race pads at low temperatures.
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      06-15-2010, 10:59 AM   #9
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This should be stickied...
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      06-15-2010, 03:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rzm3 View Post
2. Swapping Between Street and Race Brake Pads
http://www.essexparts.com/learning-c.../swapping_pads

In short, Essex suggests that it may be a good idea to scrub off the original pad material of a different pad from the rotor before bedding in your new pads. This way, you can avoid vibration, judder, and uneven pad deposits.

I personally feel this is a bit excessive for the recreational track enthusiasts. But it is probably very important for those who push their brakes to the limit.

Good information to know nonetheless.
I had stoptech BBK on my previous car, WRX, and would switch between a street and track pad, properly bedding(at least I think I did) each time. Eventually the rotors started depositing so in that case I think above would of solved my problem. I ended up using a race pad to remove the deposits but for at least me, switching between pads it tough on the rotors. I have heard some people have sets of rotors paired with pads.
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      06-16-2010, 12:58 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
So how exactly do we find a compatible material?

For instance, I went from OEM to Carbotechs (bedded-in with 5-6 stops from 100mph) and still got significant judder at the track. It's possible other factors played in but it would be nice to find out exactly what aftermarket pad compounds are compatible with the OEM's...

Like rzm3 said, you aren't going to find one that is compatible. Some brands are better about this than others, and other pads are abrasive enough for it not to matter.

I used to keep a set of the old compound of Hawk Blues around for my E36 just to scrub off the rotors. I'd just drive home with them on and by the next day, it was like having just-turned rotors, because the pads ate through rotors so badly when they are cold.

I've had ok luck swapping Carbotech Bobcats for street and the XP8 or XP10. I also used to do the same with Porterfield R4S and R4... but damn those things put out an incredible amount of dust!

I'm probably going to get Cool Carbons, since I won't be tracking on R-Compound tires for the forseeable future. http://www.autoindividual.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=242

Price is certainly right! The e90post guys have been using them at track days with a good amount of success with smaller brakes than we have.
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      07-17-2010, 04:11 PM   #12
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Cool Carbon pad problem

I had bad luck with cool carbons.
I went from worn oe pads to new CCs all around on original rotors. Brake judder at my first track event was so bad I abandoned the day. $400 down the tubes. This setup is absolutely fine on the road. No judder before or after the track day.

I made a serious (but unsuccessful) attempt to clean the discs and bed the CCs before the track day. I have little doubt the judder was due to uneven deposits. Two weeks of normal driving did not clean up the rotors (400 km). I should have just bought race pads and run them for the two weeks!

My solution was new Performance Friction rotors and pads. $2000.

For sale: Nearly new CC pads for M3 - $2000, or best offer ....
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      08-04-2010, 11:31 AM   #13
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We discussed this issue with Cool Carbon and were informed that they were in fact contacted regarding this issue and exchanged multiple emails to help the customer.

CC was advised that the customers local race shop believed the issue to be warped rotors. Customer also mentioned that he had a similar but lighter vibration his previous track day with the stock pads. In order to save the customer the expense of purchasing new rotors unnecessarily, CC advised a number of things to check first including the possibility of improper bedding and pad print deposits. Daily driving generally may not be sufficient to remove pad deposits if that actually was the cause. Re-bedding can often correct the situation.

Customer had advised CC that he did not clean or machine the old rotors before bedding and that the ABS may have triggered during bedding as it was raining heavily during the bedding process. He advised CC that he would scrub the rotors or machine them to remove any possibility of material transfer prior to purchasing new rotors.

Proper bedding is intended to raise the temperature of the pad and rotor surface to a level at which a uniform transfer of material of friction material to rotor surface can occur. Activation of the ABS during this process is not recommended. It is also not advised to attempt bedding during heavy rain as it could be difficult to maintain necessary material transfer temperatures.

CC did not know the outcome of these suggestions as the customer advised later the same day of the original inquiry that he had found what he believed was a great deal on PFC rotors and pads and went ahead and purchased these. Also please note that a full car set for an E90 M3 is $230 at full retail not $400.

Hope this sheds some light on the conversation and what may have caused the bad luck.
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      09-22-2010, 12:59 PM   #14
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I will research this more. But I was able to get two compatible pads from my Brembo (RP) sales guy. They were both ceramic, one track ceramic and another street ceramic. They were compatible, and did not require bedding in between swaps.

But since BMW will pay for OEM pads... getting my own does not sound that appealing. Maybe we can find a track pad that is compatible with OEM street? Pagid Yellow?
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      09-28-2011, 03:43 PM   #15
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Pagid Yellow (RS-19)

Guys:

Realize this is an old post.

Have any of you w/Pagid RS-19 found that the pads, when driven at low temps on the street, adequately remove the transfer layer to prepare them to swap back to street pads after the track day? If so, how long did it take? A few days of street driving or more like a couple of weeks?

I'm considering going with RS-19s for an upcoming track day in Oct and I'm hoping this is the method I can use to clean-up the rotors both before bedding and after the track day. However, because I've heard the RS-19s are pretty gentle on rotors, relatively speaking, I want to ensure this strategy will work.

Thanks in advance!
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      09-28-2011, 04:37 PM   #16
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I rotate between OEM stock pads and the Pagid RS-19 ( yellows) on the track.

I just drive the yellows around town cold for a couple of days to clean them off.
When you get the FEDEX truck brake squeak going, you are all set to put you stock pads back on.

People ( and I) have tried Windex to remove the deposits, and this also seems to work. I find delaying a couple of days to clean them automatically is easier.

The wife has gotten used to the noise and looks we get when stopping

Note: I think the pagid yellows are great and have long life too ( but are expensive).
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      09-28-2011, 05:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
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I rotate between OEM stock pads and the Pagid RS-19 ( yellows) on the track.

I just drive the yellows around town cold for a couple of days to clean them off.
When you get the FEDEX truck brake squeak going, you are all set to put you stock pads back on. (...) Note: I think the pagid yellows are great and have long life too ( but are expensive).
+1.

I usually leave them on until the weekend after, and have had no issue with deposits. But I'll mention that proper bedding in is required when going to the track.
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      09-28-2011, 08:44 PM   #18
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Thanks guys. Just the info I was looking for.

My plan is to install the pads a few days before the track day, and clean the existing stock pad material off the rotors. Then, bed-in the Pagid RS-19 pads just prior to the track day. Then, after the HPDE event, drive around for a few days, as you suggest, to clean the rotors and then get the stock pads back on.

Feedback to come. The RS-19 pads are pricey, but I've heard excellent feedback from both the BMW and Porsche guys. Just a note...any word on the RS-7 "Black" Pagids on the rear? Turner Motorsport recommends this combo, but not sure. Realize the rear will be subject to less heat, so maybe this is a good move (and they're about $100 less for the rear set).

Thanks again! Last track event of the season upcoming. Can't wait.
-Brian
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      09-29-2011, 10:44 AM   #19
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My plan is to install the pads a few days before the track day, and clean the existing stock pad material off the rotors. Then, bed-in the Pagid RS-19 pads just prior to the track day.
A few thoughts...

In my experience just driving to the track that morning should clear off the stock material (1.5 hours driving for me).

I would bed the track pads in really close to the track if at all possible, otherwise the new deposits may be completely gone by the time you run the first session.
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      09-29-2011, 11:29 AM   #20
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Sounds good to me. It's about a 1.5 hour drive for me (Boston to NHMS), and it will be very early in the AM on Sunday (5am), so I should be able to get a nice bed-in while on the highway heading to the track.

Thanks again!
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      09-29-2011, 11:31 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rzm3 View Post
Yup this is very common. The OEM pads basically start to melt onto the rotors at higher temperatures. Goes away after a few days or weeks on the street.
I thought my car was suffering from uneven brake pad deposits and even drove for 2 weeks to see if it would go away. It only got worse.

My rotors were actually warped from 2 track days. I removed them, put them on a lathe and measured the run-out which was considerably enough to make me concerned. I cut them down and all is well and they have enough to remain within specification after another cut.

The juddering is not always pad deposits, the rotor will warp easily with stock pads if you are pushing it enough.

Both track days were at Big Willow for reference.

Here is a video for fun of one of the rotors I was resurfacing. You can see how badly the rotor was warped in the video, even though it had been cut once at slow speed. The 2nd slow speed cut made it perfect.

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      09-29-2011, 01:34 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post
I thought my car was suffering from uneven brake pad deposits and even drove for 2 weeks to see if it would go away. It only got worse.

My rotors were actually warped from 2 track days.
I've actually had both happen to me.

First event in this car, running Carbotech XP12 front and XP8 rear, warped my front rotors. Got BMW to replace my rotors as a one-time-only gesture to a brand loyalist.

After that I did my front brake ducts and switched to Pagids and never had any problem until I was forced to stop on the side of the track when our session was red-flagged and I had to apply pressure to keep the car from rolling. This produced deposits which went away after 2-3 days of regular driving.
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