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      07-16-2010, 12:43 PM   #221
mds82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Not true. Here are surface temp readings of LED, HID and stock lightsources used for Angel Eyes:



Pictured are AngeliBright (left), 35W HID (center) and Halogen (right), things obviously change when installed in a sealed headlamp.

LEDs will always run the coolest out of the three, with HID temps running the highest.
Tom - are those temps in Celsius or Fahrenheit?

Also, how long were these lights running before you took your readings?
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      07-16-2010, 12:59 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mds82 View Post
Tom - are those temps in Celsius or Fahrenheit?

Also, how long were these lights running before you took your readings?
Temperature readings are all in Fahrenheit. All three lightsources were allowed to run for just under 2 minutes to allow proper warmup time, leveling out any fluctuations in temperature and give accurate readings.

Sharp eyes will notice that that the AiB unit on the left does not have a heatsink installed.
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      07-16-2010, 01:45 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Temperature readings are all in Fahrenheit. All three lightsources were allowed to run for just under 2 minutes to allow proper warmup time, leveling out any fluctuations in temperature and give accurate readings.

Sharp eyes will notice that that the AiB unit on the left does not have a heatsink installed.
Tom, if it runs so cool and no heatsink is needed, then why spend the additional money on designing and providing a heatsink?

Also, why hasn't a proper heatsink been created for other models that utilize H8 bulbs?
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      07-16-2010, 02:12 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nlpamg View Post
Tom, if it runs so cool and no heatsink is needed, then why spend the additional money on designing and providing a heatsink?
Because this will be mounted inside a sealed headlamp.

Without a proper heatsink, light output will deteriorate and can eventually cause premature failure.

The eBay kits are notorious for this, with some kits even melting the plastic housings. These designs use virtually no heat sink at all, certainly not enough to cool the LED. Unfortunately, these are widely marketed at a cheap price all over eBya and the forums.

An interesting test would be to take one of these eBay kits and put a simple light meter on it. Take readings in front of it at start up, 5min, 10min etc., watching the results. Using this type of test, we found that output has dropped approximately 40% of the original turn-on brightness after 30min on the RD kits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nlpamg View Post
Also, why hasn't a proper heatsink been created for other models that utilize H8 bulbs?
Other AiB models are in development, the space requirements are a bit tighter (for instance the X6) than e92 models to allow the e9x heatsinks to fit properly.
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      07-17-2010, 11:37 AM   #225
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what the heck happened to the piaa comparison?
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      07-19-2010, 12:15 AM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarian06 View Post
geez, looks like 6 SMD LED stuck on a H8 bulb for $315. props to people that have that kind of money to blow.

this picture says it all. is this a $315 difference?
Actually, that is not true. the Bellof kit is a lot of engineering put together in one small package that looks like and H8 bulb.

for example, there is not external resistor pack and no fickring and voltage fluctuations. Most aftermarket companies have either heat sinks or an external driver for resistor and circuitry or both.

At the end of the day, there are many solutions to lighting up the LED at the end of a bulb socket, but i do believe that no one comes close to making them in a small package with reliable lighting like Bellof does.
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      07-20-2010, 11:23 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Temperature readings are all in Fahrenheit. All three lightsources were allowed to run for just under 2 minutes to allow proper warmup time, leveling out any fluctuations in temperature and give accurate readings.

Sharp eyes will notice that that the AiB unit on the left does not have a heatsink installed.
Tom - most users do not drive for 2 minutes at a time. a real test would let them run for 30+ minutes Inside a sealed headlight. After that temperature readings should be taken.


the way you did your test is VERY misleading.............
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      07-20-2010, 11:54 AM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mds82 View Post
Tom - most users do not drive for 2 minutes at a time. a real test would let them run for 30+ minutes Inside a sealed headlight. After that temperature readings should be taken.


the way you did your test is VERY misleading.............
It wouldn't be accurate as other lightsources (headlight HID, highbeam bulb) would alter results as well as heatsoak from the engine compartment.
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      07-20-2010, 01:02 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
It wouldn't be accurate as other lightsources (headlight HID, highbeam bulb) would alter results as well as heatsoak from the engine compartment.
I think that's kind of the point mds82 was trying to make. After driving around for a while, would not their temperatures be comparable?


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      07-20-2010, 11:04 PM   #230
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I'll have to concur that a temperature reading on an isolated component of a SYSTEM where the STEADY STATE SYSTEM temperature is what really matters is VERY misleading.

EAS: The real test is measuring the internal temperature of the headlight assembly after the car has been fully warmed up for some time and driven with headlights on.

Keep up the misinformation...
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      07-20-2010, 11:18 PM   #231
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Keep up the misinformation...
Unfortunately, we get bombarded with that ALL DAY LONG man, from miracle drugs, diet on a pill, easy money schemes... And on the automotive front, pens that erase scratches, a K&N that filters great, additives that increase fuel mileage by a gazillion MPG, to this. Oh, and my favorite term: 'plug and play' . Like my Dad said: 'don't believe the person who is trying to sell you something.'
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      07-21-2010, 07:29 AM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
It wouldn't be accurate as other lightsources (headlight HID, highbeam bulb) would alter results as well as heatsoak from the engine compartment.
Well then - that would be a real life example then...........

If you dont want t real life example, then at least let the lights stay on for 30 minutes or more. put them inside a closed box that doesnt have any air movement... at least that will be closer...

the point that is most misleading with your tests - LED's do create very little heat compared to halogen or Xenon bulbs, however, the way the heat is dealt with is VERY Different. TIME is the crucial factor for these tests..
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      07-21-2010, 09:15 AM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I'll have to concur that a temperature reading on an isolated component of a SYSTEM where the STEADY STATE SYSTEM temperature is what really matters is VERY misleading.

EAS: The real test is measuring the internal temperature of the headlight assembly after the car has been fully warmed up for some time and driven with headlights on.

Keep up the misinformation...
Not sure why you'd say that.

The hotter the bulb in free air, the hotter it will also be inside a sealed headlamp.

While EAS's test won't tell the true temperature inside the headlamp, it's stil relevant as to which light source will contribute more heat. It's not like the bulb will magically be cooler inside the headlight assembly...
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      07-21-2010, 12:28 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Not sure why you'd say that.

The hotter the bulb in free air, the hotter it will also be inside a sealed headlamp.

While EAS's test won't tell the true temperature inside the headlamp, it's stil relevant as to which light source will contribute more heat. It's not like the bulb will magically be cooler inside the headlight assembly...
100% correct. A LightSource that emits more heat will result in a higher temperature within a sealed headlamp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mds82 View Post
Well then - that would be a real life example then...........

If you dont want t real life example, then at least let the lights stay on for 30 minutes or more. put them inside a closed box that doesnt have any air movement... at least that will be closer...

the point that is most misleading with your tests - LED's do create very little heat compared to halogen or Xenon bulbs, however, the way the heat is dealt with is VERY Different. TIME is the crucial factor for these tests..
Except the fact your "closed box" test does not take engine heat into account. On a headlamp - cooling is only at a minimal level (only from ambient temperature and wind resistance on the headlamp lens). Time would only affect this in a negative manner, with summer heat making the matter even worse.

The heatsink used in both the AiB and even LUX (both material and size/design) will allow heat to dissipate (aluminum has excellent thermal conductivity) from the LED, keeping it within safe operating temperature. The same concept can be compared with a computer processor/fan assembly. A quick explanation can be found here: http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=233.

Heat is a serious issue. Even more so with Light Sources emitting heat at higher temperatures than OEM.

LightSource Temperatures (in order from lowest to highest temperatures):

1. LED
2. OEM Halogen or Incandescent Bulbs
3. Tinted "Xenon" type Halogen bulbs
4. HID

HIDs were never disputed as not being the brightest, but there is no free lunch. This generally comes at a cost with higher heat and equal uneven light distribution as OEM.

A similar issue with heat happened on the AiB DriverPacks last year during the summer months, which have since been upgraded (at no additional cost) to handle these types of environments. LUX only had this happen a short while ago, requiring mounting of the DriverPacks externally of the headlamp.

However, a Halogen or HID element is a higher source of heat that will keep the environment (keep in mind less than a cubic foot) within the headlamp at a higher temperature than an LED. Even tinted halogen bulbs (ie: GP Thunders) will run hotter than the OEM bulbs as well as suffer from lumen output due to higher kelvin temps.
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      07-21-2010, 01:54 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Not sure why you'd say that.

The hotter the bulb in free air, the hotter it will also be inside a sealed headlamp.

While EAS's test won't tell the true temperature inside the headlamp, it's stil relevant as to which light source will contribute more heat. It's not like the bulb will magically be cooler inside the headlight assembly...
Sure but you are still missing the point. It is simply NOT the bulb temperature that really matters.

What matters with regards to failure of the wiring, electronics, structural components, plastic, etc. - anything inside the headlight assembly - is the internal temperature profile of the inside of the assembly. The bulb for sure will always be a hot spot whether tested inside an actual assembly or not. Just the isolated operating temperature of the bulb is not a big deal as the bulbs themselves are obviously designed to cope with all of the heat they generate.

The point here is that heat soak (the heat generated by the engine under the hood that somewhat slowly migrates and equalizes at many locations in the under hood environment) is probably just as important as the actual bulb source. Also the other bulbs in the headlight assembly are another key factor. Keep in mind these very rough numbers:

-Total engine output: 750000 watts (not power delivered to the wheels, TOTAL output!)
-Efficieny: 40%
-Heat production: 450000 watts (60% of total)
-Bulbs inside headlamp assembly: 4
-Total bulb power: 100 watts
-Underhood temperature (near engine): 200 deg F

Compare 100 watts to 450000 watts!! Now even thought the vast majority of that 450000 or so watts of engine power wasted on heat is dissipated by the cars cooling system there is a considerable amount of truly wasted heat that contributes to the 200 deg underhood temperatures. This is probably thousands of watts. Either way it dwarfs the 100 or so from the bulbs. Although the headlights are in a good location to get some cooling air they are also partly enclosed in the underhood environment as well. They WILL absorb underhood energy and that will be a major heat source contributing to their is situ temperature.

If you want to talk about the benefits of a cooler bulb you must take measurements with a thermocouple, inside the headlight assembly, after full engine warm up, under steady state (or some other defined) operating conditions. If you think the insides of the headlights will show anywhere near as drastic of a temperature differences as the Angel Eye BULBS themselves, in isolation, you are sorely mistaken.

Hence again the whole bulb temperature thing is mostly a red herring.

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      07-21-2010, 03:42 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Sure but you are still missing the point. It is simply NOT the bulb temperature that really matters.
Fact is, if the bulb generates more heat by itself, the temperature inside the sealed headlamp enclosure will be greater - always - irrespective of what other heat sources are present. That's physics.

Quote:
Compare 100 watts to 450000 watts!! Now even thought the vast majority of that 450000 or so watts of engine power wasted on heat is dissipated by the cars cooling system there is a considerable amount of truly wasted heat that contributes to the 200 deg underhood temperatures. This is probably thousands of watts. Either way it dwarfs the 100 or so from the bulbs.
Not sure your math checks out - engine heat waste may be thousands of watts, but it's over a much larger area. 100W of the bulb is concentrated over a much smaller surface (tens of times smaller in fact).

Quote:
Although the headlights are in a good location to get some cooling air they are also partly enclosed in the underhood environment as well. They WILL absorb underhood energy and that will be a major heat source contributing to their is situ temperature.

If you want to talk about the benefits of a cooler bulb you must take measurements with a thermocouple, inside the headlight assembly, after full engine warm up, under steady state (or some other defined) operating conditions. If you think the insides of the headlights will show anywhere near as drastic of a temperature differences as the Angel Eye BULBS themselves, in isolation, you are sorely mistaken.

Hence again the whole bulb temperature thing is mostly a red herring.
So your argument is that the bulb contributes a minuscule amount of heat inside its own sealed and plastic insulated enclosure?

Forgive me for not really believing all this, since you aren't providing a shred of hard evidence to support your point. You're criticizing EAS's method, but yours is much poorer.

I personally think exactly the opposite - inside the headlamps, the bulbs are the major heat contributors, not the engine. As I've said, this is my speculation - and I don't mind at all if I'm proven wrong.

For full disclosure, I'm running GP Thunders and doubt will ever pay $100-300 for a fancy light bulb, so I don't really care if the HID makes more heat than the LED's or vice-versa.
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      07-21-2010, 07:00 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Fact is, if the bulb generates more heat by itself, the temperature inside the sealed headlamp enclosure will be greater - always - irrespective of what other heat sources are present. That's physics.
I would not argue with this. It is a typical "flawed physics" approach though - what you need is more of an "engineering" answer. And the key question is will it matter. Just because it is some amount (even a significant amount) hotter that may not cause any harm whatsoever over any duration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Not sure your math checks out - engine heat waste may be thousands of watts, but it's over a much larger area. 100W of the bulb is concentrated over a much smaller surface (tens of times smaller in fact).
No argument about the volumes involved. But the real point was more about the other power sources other than the Angel Eye bulbs in addition to the high ambient underhood temperature which WILL transmit considerable heat into the headlamp assembly. Almost all of the headlight surfaces that can radiate or trasmit heat also are subject to the heat soak from the huge reservoir of underhood heat energy.

Check the assembly yourself after a long period of lights on, engine off vs. a long period of driving (lights on or off). You might be surprised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
So your argument is that the bulb contributes a minuscule amount of heat inside its own sealed and plastic insulated enclosure?

Forgive me for not really believing all this, since you aren't providing a shred of hard evidence to support your point. You're criticizing EAS's method, but yours is much poorer.
Not quite. You are missing the key point here. My argument is that the temperature inside the headlamp assembly with a LED vs. HID in absolutely no way will be similar to the differences on the surface of those respective bulbs. No I don't have data for this but no data is better than radically flawed or misleading data. You seem to be confusing temperature with power as well. You can have something really, really hot but with little power output. With little power output it won't heat up the inside of an enclosure it it put into. The is why the watts of the bulbs vs. the (wasterd heat) watts of the engine is still relevant. Sure one is inside the "box" and one outside it but it still puts things in some perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
I personally think exactly the opposite - inside the headlamps, the bulbs are the major heat contributors, not the engine. As I've said, this is my speculation - and I don't mind at all if I'm proven wrong.
Could be but again another key is "bulbs" not bulb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
For full disclosure, I'm running GP Thunders and doubt will ever pay $100-300 for a fancy light bulb, so I don't really care if the HID makes more heat than the LED's or vice-versa.
I run the GP Thunders as well with the Camaross kit to give them full power when the headlamps are on. However, I do care very much about honest and appropriate advertising and product promotion.
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      07-21-2010, 07:12 PM   #238
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Quote:
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I run the GP Thunders as well with the Camaross kit to give them full power when the headlamps are on. However, I do care very much about honest and appropriate advertising and product promotion.
Hm, I wonder how far upstream the voltage switch occurs. This should just be a simple matter of a SPDT relay to keep 12v going whenever the angel eyes should be on right? I assume that is what the Camaross kit is.
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      07-21-2010, 08:07 PM   #239
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There's a ton of argument about the heat of the bulbs in this thread, but does any of it even matter? There's a ton of people with each option out there, has anyone had one issue with the heat? I haven't heard of one yet. So I'm not sure what's being proved with 70 or 700 temperature tests? For that matter, has anyone even bothered to measure the temperature of the OEM headlights (not the angel eyes)? Surely they are hotter than the LED's and they don't seem to be causing any problems
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      07-22-2010, 03:11 AM   #240
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Quote:
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Hm, I wonder how far upstream the voltage switch occurs. This should just be a simple matter of a SPDT relay to keep 12v going whenever the angel eyes should be on right? I assume that is what the Camaross kit is.
This has been discussed. IIRC some one on the forum essentially did this and mimicked the Camaross kit. Quite a ways OT though...
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      07-22-2010, 02:45 PM   #241
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the reason for the Gp Thunder bulbs to dim when xenons are turned out is due to the BMW voltage drop, but at least its error free
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      07-23-2010, 03:13 PM   #242
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the reason for the Gp Thunder bulbs to dim when xenons are turned out is due to the BMW voltage drop, but at least its error free
Well, a more precise description is simply that BMW wanted /intended and designed it to be this way. Dimmer AE's when headlights on. The whole reason the Camaross kit was developed was for aesthetics since many people agree the AE's look much better under full power both with headlights on and off. Also the Camaross kit is 100% error free.
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