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      08-16-2010, 08:22 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by roozie2001 View Post
Cuz starbucks was involved in many terror attacks. The crusades. killing jesus. Anti Gay rhetoric. Dragging blacks cuz its unholy. NO
its all in the name of christianity, islam and juddism. Not saying the religion is to blame but the people taking it out of context are.
you missed the point entirely

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I think that explains the whole situation.
exactly!
it isn't like they are building a new blue mosque or mecca
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      08-16-2010, 08:34 PM   #90
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I'm confused...didn't we go into Iraq under the premise to free the Iraqi people (who are muslim) from the wrath of Suddam Hussian? Wasn't it called "Operation Iraqi Freedom?"

So why on earth would be spend billions of dollars, over 4,000 lives of our young men and women, and 7 years there to free these muslim people, but then go and say muslims can't open a mosque at ground zero???

WTF am I missing here?



Aren't these very same people criticizing this idea of a mosque the same people who preach "by the constitution"?

Isn't this the epitome of our 1st amendment right?

Granted I can understand why some see this in bad taste, but its something that we shouldn't attempt to stop.

What we should stop is the constant and consistent bashing of muslims because of a few thousand nut jobs ruining it for the billions of other people. The U.S. is better than that...at least I thought so.
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      08-16-2010, 10:31 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by BlueZ4AZ View Post
I can totally understand your feelings, but it's the logic I don't understand. If they planned the attack in a Starbucks, would you be against them putting a Starbucks at the site?
Well, you're right about one thing, you definitely don't understand the "logic". If they planned it in a Starbucks, were hardcore Starbucks employees and clearly did it in the name of Starbucks, of course we wouldn't build a Starbucks there moron.
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      08-17-2010, 02:24 AM   #92
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Well, you're right about one thing, you definitely don't understand the "logic". If they planned it in a Starbucks, were hardcore Starbucks employees and clearly did it in the name of Starbucks, of course we wouldn't build a Starbucks there moron.
you're one of those "blame everyone for the few nutjobs" types aren't you..
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      08-17-2010, 01:44 PM   #93
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I'm not blaming anyone for anything. Its not a question of blame or a question of legality or the constitution. Its a matter of what is appropriate to advance the interfaith relations in this country.

99.99% of Japanese people had nothing to do with the bombing of Pearl Harbor, and I don't blame "the Japanese" for Pearl Harbor. The fact that we don't put a memorial to their culture at the sight is not because we are blaming them, its because IT WOULD BE A DUMB, INSENSITIVE THING TO DO.

Respond to the statement I posted above. We would not put a starbucks there, and yes it is the same thing. EVEN THOUGH those were not the ideas of 99.99% of the starbucks owners and patrons.

You are wrong on this one and your desire to push "muslim tolerance" has blinded you to that.
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      08-18-2010, 02:31 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by mfeltiii View Post
I'm not blaming anyone for anything. Its not a question of blame or a question of legality or the constitution. Its a matter of what is appropriate to advance the interfaith relations in this country.

99.99% of Japanese people had nothing to do with the bombing of Pearl Harbor, and I don't blame "the Japanese" for Pearl Harbor. The fact that we don't put a memorial to their culture at the sight is not because we are blaming them, its because IT WOULD BE A DUMB, INSENSITIVE THING TO DO.

Respond to the statement I posted above. We would not put a starbucks there, and yes it is the same thing. EVEN THOUGH those were not the ideas of 99.99% of the starbucks owners and patrons.

You are wrong on this one and your desire to push "muslim tolerance" has blinded you to that.
the bolded part just shows your lack of understanding...
it is not a memorial.. it is just a place of worship...
if they wanted to open a Shintoist or Buddhist temple in Pearl Harbor because a lot of Japanese lived there, would that be wrong?

it has nothing to do with "muslim tolerance" it has to do with freedom to exercise one's religion.
what's next? someone who is muslim is not allowed to own property near or around that area because it is a slap in the face? No one asked for a memorial for them..

people fail to understand that their religion has nothing to do with the attack.
What subsection of the Muslim religion is it that wants to build a mosque? you do know there are two subsections that absolutely hate each other!
Do you even know what part of the religion those terrorists were? and if so, what kind of mosque is being erected?

just because of a few ignorant morons would find it offensive because all they understand is "kill dem turb ons" is not a good reason to deny these American citizens the right to exercise their faith.

grouping sunni and shiite together is like saying "Asians are responsible for pearl harbor"
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      08-18-2010, 06:10 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Comet View Post
the bolded part just shows your lack of understanding...
it is not a memorial.. it is just a place of worship...
if they wanted to open a Shintoist or Buddhist temple in Pearl Harbor because a lot of Japanese lived there, would that be wrong?

it has nothing to do with "muslim tolerance" it has to do with freedom to exercise one's religion.
what's next? someone who is muslim is not allowed to own property near or around that area because it is a slap in the face? No one asked for a memorial for them..

people fail to understand that their religion has nothing to do with the attack.
What subsection of the Muslim religion is it that wants to build a mosque? you do know there are two subsections that absolutely hate each other!
Do you even know what part of the religion those terrorists were? and if so, what kind of mosque is being erected?

just because of a few ignorant morons would find it offensive because all they understand is "kill dem turb ons" is not a good reason to deny these American citizens the right to exercise their faith.

grouping sunni and shiite together is like saying "Asians are responsible for pearl harbor"
You are about as out of touch with American sentiment as our president. I guess you have an excuse as you don't live here.

Unless you consider "a few ignorant morons" to mean 66% of New Yorkers you should get your facts straight before you start assuming you speak for America. 2/3 of people in NYC feel it is wrong to build the mosque there. WHO ARE YOU to tell them otherwise?

Nobody is DENYING ANYONE the right to practive their religion. There are over 100 mosques in NYC alone. The vast, vast majority of muslims would have to pass by another mosque to visit the one in lower manhattan. How many christian churches are there in mecca? (zero)

Now, here is the part you really don't get. The muslims who worship at the ground zero mosque will be celebrating the teachings of the Qu'ran. The radical muslims who killed 3000 Americans did so IN THE NAME OF the teachings of the Qu'ran. IT DOESN'T MATTER that the minority group misinterpreted those teachings, just like it doesn't matter which subsection of muslims would be celebrating the Qu'ran there. If a group of radical Baptists bombed the Masjid al-Haram IN THE NAME OF the Bible and Christianity you wouldn't build a Baptist OR a Catholic church in eyesight of it. Not because you wanted to inhibit their right to practice their religion (although that would be the case there), but because it would be WRONG TO DO SO.

If you can't see this you need to open your eyes.

We haven't even touched the fact that the Imam in question has stated that America is partially responsibe for the 9/11 attacks btw.
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      08-19-2010, 04:44 AM   #96
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from what I understood, the city of NY gave them the right to build it.. so bitch as much as you want, it is getting built :/

it doesn't matter that they misinterpreted it?
so if a group of people go around mass murdering jews in the name of the bible in area X because they misinterpreted the Bible, that means that no churches can be built in area X because of them?
let's say they set fire to an entire jewish district in some city. upon rebuilding, the church legally bought land there and wanted to build a church, they would have no right to despite having the proper paperwork from area X's governor?
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      08-19-2010, 01:01 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
I'm confused...didn't we go into Iraq under the premise to free the Iraqi people (who are muslim) from the wrath of Suddam Hussian? Wasn't it called "Operation Iraqi Freedom?"

So why on earth would be spend billions of dollars, over 4,000 lives of our young men and women, and 7 years there to free these muslim people, but then go and say muslims can't open a mosque at ground zero???

WTF am I missing here?

Aren't these very same people criticizing this idea of a mosque the same people who preach "by the constitution"?

Isn't this the epitome of our 1st amendment right?

Granted I can understand why some see this in bad taste, but its something that we shouldn't attempt to stop.

What we should stop is the constant and consistent bashing of muslims because of a few thousand nut jobs ruining it for the billions of other people. The U.S. is better than that...at least I thought so.
This is how I look at it. In my neck of the woods a few years ago Walmart wanted to build a big super center pretty much in the middle of a bunch of neighborhoods. The zoning allowed for it and the county approved it. During the whole process there was very strong opposition to Walmart building on that land. So much so that eventually Walmart decided not to build at that site and instead worked with the county in a land swap to build the Walmart down the road. In it's place went a school which was a way better fit for the surrounding neighborhood.

I think with all the opposition to the mosque being built at that site the people who want to build it should listen to the community and work with local or state government and find a suitable place where you will have far fewer then 70% of the people opposing it.

After yesterday with the builders of the mosque rejecting a meeting with the governor to even consider an alternate place, Pelosi calling for an investigation into where the money is coming for the opposition and Obama supporting the location of it is just going to add fuel to the fire.

Regardless of "What" is being built there the community and the nation does not want "It" at that location.
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      08-19-2010, 01:14 PM   #98
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from what I understood, the city of NY gave them the right to build it.. so bitch as much as you want, it is getting built :/

it doesn't matter that they misinterpreted it?
so if a group of people go around mass murdering jews in the name of the bible in area X because they misinterpreted the Bible, that means that no churches can be built in area X because of them?
let's say they set fire to an entire jewish district in some city. upon rebuilding, the church legally bought land there and wanted to build a church, they would have no right to despite having the proper paperwork from area X's governor?
The city of NY does not give them the right to build it. The Constitution gives them the right to build it. That difference is one of the fundamental reasons America is great. The question here has never been whether or not anyone had the right, it was whether it was right.

Your example is a huge extrapolation of the concept but flawed as there are, as above, already over 100 mosques in NYC. In addition the larger the area you expand the arguement to, the more likely the types of houses of worship you are going to build were present prior to, and destroyed in, the fire. You would be rebuilding, not building. To extrapolate even further, if someone blew up everything on the earth in the name of Islam, of course we would need to rebuild mosques. That being said, if there were NO churches in this Jewish area before, there is a reasonable chance there wouldn't be any after.

But I do get your point, and it is one that is debated daily here in America. That is how close is too close. How many blocks away from ground zero is it ok to build a mosque? I admit I don't have an answer, because there is no hard answer. I think you ask the people who were affected. You ask the muslim, jewish, christian and all other people of NYC. And they oppose it by over 30 percentage points.
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      08-19-2010, 01:18 PM   #99
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That's neutral territory and they weren't crashing planes into buildings in the name of Starbucks. I understand what you're getting at but it's not the same. They crashed into our financial center where people I know worked and died in the name of religion and now want to build a 13 story center devoted to that same religion just 2 blocks away. There are plenty of other places where this can be built but they're exploiting the very freedoms that our system, which the religion is completely against, guarantees and that they are not afforded on their home land. It's insensitive to the lost lives, plain and simple.
The "they" who crashed into the buildings are not the same "they" who want to build the Mosque.
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      08-19-2010, 01:23 PM   #100
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Well, you're right about one thing, you definitely don't understand the "logic". If they planned it in a Starbucks, were hardcore Starbucks employees and clearly did it in the name of Starbucks, of course we wouldn't build a Starbucks there moron.
To take my Starbucks statement literally, proves that you are the true moron, you MORON!!!
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      08-19-2010, 01:24 PM   #101
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You are about as out of touch with American sentiment as our president. I guess you have an excuse as you don't live here.

Unless you consider "a few ignorant morons" to mean 66% of New Yorkers you should get your facts straight before you start assuming you speak for America. 2/3 of people in NYC feel it is wrong to build the mosque there. WHO ARE YOU to tell them otherwise?

Nobody is DENYING ANYONE the right to practive their religion. There are over 100 mosques in NYC alone. The vast, vast majority of muslims would have to pass by another mosque to visit the one in lower manhattan. How many christian churches are there in mecca? (zero)

Now, here is the part you really don't get. The muslims who worship at the ground zero mosque will be celebrating the teachings of the Qu'ran. The radical muslims who killed 3000 Americans did so IN THE NAME OF the teachings of the Qu'ran. IT DOESN'T MATTER that the minority group misinterpreted those teachings, just like it doesn't matter which subsection of muslims would be celebrating the Qu'ran there. If a group of radical Baptists bombed the Masjid al-Haram IN THE NAME OF the Bible and Christianity you wouldn't build a Baptist OR a Catholic church in eyesight of it. Not because you wanted to inhibit their right to practice their religion (although that would be the case there), but because it would be WRONG TO DO SO.

If you can't see this you need to open your eyes.

We haven't even touched the fact that the Imam in question has stated that America is partially responsibe for the 9/11 attacks btw.
Ohh, will you please do us all a big favor and just zip it, already!!!!
Your are NOT going to change the opinion of anyone that believes the Mosque is OK. I understand how truly frustrating that is for you, but it's a fact. Most of the adults on this thread are able to voice their opinions and have a debate without belittling others. Learn from them.
This just in .....and I know this will be a complete and utter shock for you, but..............not everyone "sees" is your way.

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      08-19-2010, 03:54 PM   #102
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Ohh, will you please do us all a big favor and just zip it, already!!!!
Your are NOT going to change the opinion of anyone that believes the Mosque is OK. I understand how truly frustrating that is for you, but it's a fact. Most of the adults on this thread are able to voice their opinions and have a debate without belittling others. Learn from them.
This just in .....and I know this will be a complete and utter shock for you, but..............not everyone "sees" is your way.
I didn't belittle anyone in that post. You will notice the poster referred to people as ignorant morons however. You seem to be the one who is intolerant to people discussing their opinions, which is of course the purpose of the forum.

I do appologize for using the word moron in my post #91 though.

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      08-19-2010, 03:59 PM   #103
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To take my Starbucks statement literally, proves that you are the true moron, you MORON!!!
OF COURSE nobody took your Starbucks statement literally. It is a concept to facilitate discussion.

Oh and look who is belittling again...
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      08-19-2010, 04:29 PM   #104
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Freedoms are usually a wonderful thing. Most often, they provide the society-improving benefits they are intended to provide. Sometimes, they are leveraged/exploited/twisted in a way that does not necessarily violate the letter of the law, so you have limited legal recourse to stop such exploitation.

If I lived next door to a 9/11 widow, it would be perfectly legal for me to put up a small sign on my property that said "I am not opposed to Al Qaeda". I would be breaking no law, as long as the sign was small enough to not run afoul of any local bylaws.

Obviously, it would be incredibly insensitive for me to do so, and you could also argue that it would be impossible to believe that I could not predict or anticipate any impending backlash from the other area residents for doing so. If I woke up one morning after a week to find the sign destroyed, or other vandalism against my property, then it would be crazy for me to be surprised in any way, unless I was surprised that it took so long for the vandalism to occur.

Yes, technically the people who vandalized my house did break the law, whereas I did not. Nevertheless, you'd really have to ask yourself; what was I thinking, what was I trying to accomplish? An imbecile could have predicted the response to my very legal (yet foolish) act. My actions become even more absurd if you assume a context that I was already looked upon with suspicion and wariness by others in the neighborhood.

Just because you can do something, does not mean you should. Muslims have been complaining for years that they are negatively discriminated against due to unjustified associations to 9/11. Many of those complaints are legitimate. However, if your goal is to reduce that, why why why would you choose to do things that, while legal, are doing you no favors at all with respect to how your group is seen or perceived by others. Surely they cannot be so stupid to not forsee this would hinder rather than help their cause. Why would they choose to work against their own best interests when there are a million other places to construct such a place.
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      08-19-2010, 04:45 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comet View Post
from what I understood, the city of NY gave them the right to build it.. so bitch as much as you want, it is getting built :/

it doesn't matter that they misinterpreted it?
so if a group of people go around mass murdering jews in the name of the bible in area X because they misinterpreted the Bible, that means that no churches can be built in area X because of them?
let's say they set fire to an entire jewish district in some city. upon rebuilding, the church legally bought land there and wanted to build a church, they would have no right to despite having the proper paperwork from area X's governor?
Yes, they would have a legal right to build their church there. However, it would be very foolish of them to exercise their legal right in that spot, unless their goal was to stir up bad feelings and increase animosity towards themselves.

And yes, you would have to be the most sheltered, stupid, or naive person on the planet to not anticipate such animosity. You could argue that such animosity is misplaced, that it is the result of misleading teachings, or racism, or whatever, but the quality of such an argument is irrelevant; the fact remains that such animosity will exist. Believing otherwise is incredibly dumb, and certainly not in your own best interest. Why would you choose to act in a way against your own best interest.

That's like someone walking thru a forest where a starving grizzly bear is known to roam, and stating "I dont need to carry bear spray, because I'll be OK since I'm a vegan and dont eat other animals, as well as being a card carrying member of the SPCA, so when I inform him of that, he'll leave me alone".

um... yeah, good luck with that...
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      08-19-2010, 05:39 PM   #106
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OF COURSE nobody took your Starbucks statement literally. It is a concept to facilitate discussion.

Oh and look who is belittling again...
The gloves came off once you called me a moron. I'm generally not one that takes crap from anyone. If you dish it out, then you better be prapared to accept it.

I see you've since apologized so we're good.

Last edited by BlueZ4AZ; 08-19-2010 at 06:05 PM.
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      08-19-2010, 10:22 PM   #107
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i find it interesting that no one mentions the fact that Christianity was spread by
force and blood shed. is it ok because that happened too long ago and the only
violence that they commit now is toward our children? there also happens to be a
church over looking the memorial site, should that be vacated? this whole
situation is nonsense. politicians should be working on things that matter, not
some community center, or blinding the public with misdirection and fear. what
about the economy, jobs, education, 100 million gallons of oil in the gulf,
failing infrastructure, debt to the Chinese, and the list goes on.
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      08-19-2010, 10:35 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by nuespeedgti View Post
i find it interesting that no one mentions the fact that Christianity was spread by
force and blood shed. is it ok because that happened too long ago and the only
violence that they commit now is toward our children? there also happens to be a
church over looking the memorial site, should that be vacated? this whole
situation is nonsense. politicians should be working on things that matter, not
some community center, or blinding the public with misdirection and fear. what
about the economy, jobs, education, 100 million gallons of oil in the gulf,
failing infrastructure, debt to the Chinese, and the list goes on.
Wasn't islam spread with bloodshed too? religion was bloody and still is.
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      08-19-2010, 11:51 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by BlueZ4AZ View Post
The gloves came off once you called me a moron. I'm generally not one that takes crap from anyone. If you dish it out, then you better be prapared to accept it.

I see you've since apologized so we're good.
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      08-20-2010, 03:29 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
Yes, they would have a legal right to build their church there. However, it would be very foolish of them to exercise their legal right in that spot, unless their goal was to stir up bad feelings and increase animosity towards themselves.

And yes, you would have to be the most sheltered, stupid, or naive person on the planet to not anticipate such animosity. You could argue that such animosity is misplaced, that it is the result of misleading teachings, or racism, or whatever, but the quality of such an argument is irrelevant; the fact remains that such animosity will exist. Believing otherwise is incredibly dumb, and certainly not in your own best interest. Why would you choose to act in a way against your own best interest.

That's like someone walking thru a forest where a starving grizzly bear is known to roam, and stating "I dont need to carry bear spray, because I'll be OK since I'm a vegan and dont eat other animals, as well as being a card carrying member of the SPCA, so when I inform him of that, he'll leave me alone".

um... yeah, good luck with that...
lol
I like your bear example

The bold part is what I'm talking about, it isn't irrelevant because the world shouldn't give in to the ignorance of the masses.
Where does the racism and bigotry end?
Will we start burning them like witches?

someone mentioned that there are 100 other mosques available..
That's like me being racist against all black people and not wanting one as a neighbor because a friend of mine or family member was killed in the Bronx..
I could tell him go buy another house somewhere else.. there are thousands of other houses available, let him go live somewhere else because I'm too much of a bigot to understand that he has nothing to do with that specific gang member.

we're in the 21st century and we still hold prejudice against innocent people because of their culture/heritage/skin color.. it is sad
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