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      08-05-2010, 10:46 PM   #45
Javi335
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Originally Posted by ghosthi32 View Post
you are odd javi
Hahahah.

The thing is easy amigos, they want a mosque? ok, is a free country. But not in the ground zero. Simple as that.
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      08-05-2010, 10:48 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Javi335 View Post
Hahahah.

The thing is easy amigos, they want a mosque? ok, is a free country. But not in the ground zero. Simple as that.
no, not because of your opinion. You in general...lol
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      08-05-2010, 10:59 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by ghosthi32 View Post
no, not because of your opinion. You in general...lol
Yeah yeah, i know one day im gonna paid for all the things i writte in the internet. And here i type some kind of english, so i got an excuse like -sorry i dont want to mean that, the online translator get me wrong sir, etc-

You should read me on spanish forums, on my environment
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      08-05-2010, 11:14 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
The mosque and its Imam are a minor side issue IMHO. My reading of the Q'uran tells me that imposition of Sharia law, total dedication to conversion or killing of non-believers, sanctioned lying and deception and an ever-expanding Caliphate are all specific goals of Islam. I'm not emotional about Moslems nor do I hate them. But I listen to what is said and read what is written.
I find it interesting that you say you've read the Qur'an. If you you've truly read it, how can you say that it imposes Sharia? Sharia law is the result of an interpretation of the Qur'an - it is something created by people after interpreting it. Your comment is like stating that the Magna Carta comes straight from the Bible. It definitely does not prescribe the sorts of Sharia law practiced in parts of the world. Don't get me wrong, I'm no proponent of Sharia (where and how its practiced is quite appalling). As for sanctioning lying and deception, you show me where that is in the Qur'an, and more importantly in what context. You are also quite selective in the areas you wish to quote. The Qur'an also tells muslims to respect non-believers, and the part about killing non-believers has to do with specific offences.

As for the caliphate system, its no different than the catholic church (let's not go there because I agree mixing political and religious structures is the worst of the worst) And as for converting or killing, what makes it different than any religion? Let's not forget the hundreds of millions who died in the 'name of Christianity'.

If you're going to read and write about Islam and muslims, at least quote proper, non-biased sources.

Last edited by sawzall; 08-05-2010 at 11:26 PM.
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      08-06-2010, 04:24 PM   #49
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This is astonishing chutzpah.

Islam has a tradition of building mosques at the site of great victories. Perhaps they should also build an 100-foot mosque in the Pennsylvania field where 93 crashed?

This is no different than the Japanese building a Shinto monument at the site of Pearl Harbor in 1946. Do they have a right to build it? Yes. Should they? No. But the very fact that they keep on pushing this mosque while claiming it's to "improve interfaith relations" proves something about the real intentions here, IMHO
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      08-06-2010, 05:13 PM   #50
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Well, sort of a half-hearted refutation but, I can work with it.

Don't care about what Christianity or Catholics may have done. Find someone else, it's not germane to my concerns. But comparing the Caliphate to the spread of a real religion, that's just silly.

Disingenuous answer on Sharia, you know full well that Muhammad and Sharia are inextricably linked. To live your life in accordance with your book Sharia is absolutely required. It's assumed and, required or you are simply not following the Prophet nor in consonance with your doctrine.

Lying is a persistent theme and was an integral part of Muhammad's life story. It's persistent and pervasive as long as applied to unbelievers or to further Islam. You might do some review of the book.

Killing infidels is not restricted to "offenses" unless you include failure to yield to Islam an offense. As an unbeliever I have two choices--submit or be killed.

All of my understanding comes from reading (really!) the Q'uran, from general study, the news, and, I almost forgot--several years in south and southwest Asia and parts of Africa. I've walked the ground, sometimes looking for friends, sometimes not. But mostly my understanding comes from the words of Moslems. They may not be your personal words but "moderate Moslems" are not in charge. Until you throttle the radicals, I have to listen to the guy that has the microphone.

Again, I take Moslems at their word and, IMHO, Islam is an existential threat to what I hold dear. So, there it is, we differ.

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Originally Posted by shizzle View Post
I find it interesting that you say you've read the Qur'an. If you you've truly read it, how can you say that it imposes Sharia? Sharia law is the result of an interpretation of the Qur'an - it is something created by people after interpreting it. Your comment is like stating that the Magna Carta comes straight from the Bible. It definitely does not prescribe the sorts of Sharia law practiced in parts of the world. Don't get me wrong, I'm no proponent of Sharia (where and how its practiced is quite appalling). As for sanctioning lying and deception, you show me where that is in the Qur'an, and more importantly in what context. You are also quite selective in the areas you wish to quote. The Qur'an also tells muslims to respect non-believers, and the part about killing non-believers has to do with specific offences.

As for the caliphate system, its no different than the catholic church (let's not go there because I agree mixing political and religious structures is the worst of the worst) And as for converting or killing, what makes it different than any religion? Let's not forget the hundreds of millions who died in the 'name of Christianity'.

If you're going to read and write about Islam and muslims, at least quote proper, non-biased sources.
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      08-06-2010, 09:36 PM   #51
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^OldArmy, if anything your answer is the one thats half-hearted.

You haven't shown any evidence for the assertions you make. As it stands, your position wreaks of xenophobia.

As for your comment about taking muslims for their word, why is it that you fail to acknowledge them when they speak about peace?

Oh, and why don't you worry about Christians? The Bible also states that non-believers should be killed. In fact, here's the passage,

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

Oh, and my point with the quote above is simply that you can take any quote from any religious book and make the people sound bad. If you apply your analysis only to Islam and you simply overlook what other religions state, that's xenophobia in my book.

Last edited by sawzall; 08-06-2010 at 09:42 PM.
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      08-07-2010, 04:05 PM   #52
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And in today's news, 10 humanitarian aid/medical workers killed (in part) in Afghanistan for supposedly "teaching Christianity to Afghans".
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      08-07-2010, 05:16 PM   #53
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typical... some fucked up ancient backward ass views in that world.
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      08-07-2010, 07:28 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
And in today's news, 10 humanitarian aid/medical workers killed (in part) in Afghanistan for supposedly "teaching Christianity to Afghans".

Thats the biggest bullshit recently... Taliban dont roam the area these workers were. They never have in the past, this was the 10% of Afghanistan the Taliban have never controlled.

These people were probably killed by thugs, a robbery or something.

Much of the middle east there is no separation of religion and state. These people going there TRYING to preach another religion are smoking crack and are just on a suicide mission. It just gives the bad guys another recruiting tool...

For what its worth there are TONS of missionaries in Afghanistan actively converting...
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      08-07-2010, 07:52 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
And in today's news, 10 humanitarian aid/medical workers killed (in part) in Afghanistan for supposedly "teaching Christianity to Afghans".
Nato air strikes are said to have killed 25 Afghans including many civilians, hours after US troops were urged to avoid hurting non-combatants. - BBC News, August 5th.

Nigeria: Attack on a Mosque Results in at Least 5 Deaths - The violence began Tuesday in Wukari, in Taraba State, when Christians upset over a mosque in their neighborhood burned it down, Police Commissioner Aliyu Musa said. - NY Times, July 14.

So do these headlines mean we should fear the US and Christians since they are killing muslims? No, the actions of the few should not be attributed to the many.

Last edited by sawzall; 08-07-2010 at 08:22 PM.
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      08-08-2010, 05:17 PM   #56
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So do these headlines mean we should fear the US and Christians since they are killing muslims? No, the actions of the few should not be attributed to the many.
Unless you are Afghan. In which case its completely understandable to fear the Americans and their troops and drones and helicopters.
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      08-09-2010, 10:36 AM   #57
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you want proof?

Here are websites that provide documented facts:

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com
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      08-09-2010, 06:08 PM   #58
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This is for the person that thought Mosque's couldn't be shut down...


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/eu...838517911.html

Quote:
A Hamburg mosque once frequented by some of those involved in the September 11 attacks on the United Sates in 2001 has been shut down because authorities believe the prayer house was again being used to spread violent ideas.

The Taiba mosque has been closed and the cultural association that runs it banned, city officials said in a statement on Monday.

"We have closed the mosque because it was a recruiting and meeting point for Islamic radicals who wanted to participate in so-called jihad or holy war," Frank Reschreiter, a spokesman for Hamburg's state interior ministry, said.

He said that 20 police officers were searching the building and had confiscated material, including several computers.

Under observation

Authorities have said the prayer house, formerly known as the al-Quds mosque, was a meeting and recruiting point years ago for some of the September 11 attackers before they moved to the US.

Mohamed Atta, leader of the September 11 attackers, as well as Marwan Al-Shehhi and Ziad Jarrah had studied in Hamburg and frequented the mosque.

Reschreiter said Monday marked the first time the mosque had been closed, and that it had been under observation by local intelligence officers for "quite a long time".

A 2009 report by the Hamburg branch of Germany's domestic intelligence agency also said the mosque had again become the "centre of attraction for the jihad scene" in the northern port city.

It said some people who belonged to the mosque's cultural association and prayed there had travelled to an armed training camp in Uzbekistan.

A group of 11 people that visited training camps in Uzbekistan in March 2009 was formed at Taiba mosque, the report said.

Most of the group's members were either German converts, of Middle Eastern origin or from the Caucasus region.

"A very important factor for the radicalization of the group members was certainly their joint visits to the mosque," the intelligence report stated.

It appears that one man from the group joined the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, an armed group in Central Asia, the report said.
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      08-09-2010, 10:35 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by zetaxi165 View Post
you want proof?

Here are websites that provide documented facts:

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com
And thank you for proving my point. What you have shown are two, well-know extreme right groups with highly biased agendas. In fact, Ali Sina, who runs Faith Freedom, has regularly compared Barak Obama to Hitler. In fact he is quoted as saying, "I don't see Muslims as innocent people. They are all guilty as sin. It is not necessary to be part of al Qaida to be guilty". Not exactly an objective opinion to begin with. But let's work with his logic. E.g. since a few Catholic priests have raped little children, all Catholics are pedophiles. Or similarly, Americans are all killers since the CIA has selectively assassinated people - or better yet, all Americans are terrorists, since America has supported terrorists (e.g. Saddam in the 80s and Bin Laden via Mujahadeen). The logic in all three cases is absolutely absurd.

If these biased, extreme-right wing, hate-mongering sites are where you get your evidence to support your position, then there isn't a whole lot to say. It's like saying you're not an anti-semite, but taking Mein Kampf as fact. All I can recommend is to find some sites with balanced opinions, accredited journalists and academics, and try forming a more realistic view of the world.
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      08-10-2010, 06:09 AM   #60
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dude my parents are muslim. im persian. i believe in God but not organized religion. i think this is a big slap in the face to america. im sorry but i dont think a mosque should be put at a location where terrorist killed 3000+ people in the name of Islam. Might as well piss on those peoples graves. Religious buildings shouldnt be a world financial center anyway. I hate all of it. Christianity, Islam, etc. most of the death in this world is brought in the name of religion.
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      08-10-2010, 02:37 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roozie2001 View Post
dude my parents are muslim. im persian. i believe in God but not organized religion. i think this is a big slap in the face to america. im sorry but i dont think a mosque should be put at a location where terrorist killed 3000+ people in the name of Islam. Might as well piss on those peoples graves. Religious buildings shouldnt be a world financial center anyway. I hate all of it. Christianity, Islam, etc. most of the death in this world is brought in the name of religion.

Persian?? I thought all of them died long long time ago. I think you mean you're Iranian.

From what I've been told theres Churches and Synagogues near the world financial center...
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      08-10-2010, 03:01 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by SfValley335i View Post
Persian?? I thought all of them died long long time ago. I think you mean you're Iranian.

From what I've been told theres Churches and Synagogues near the world financial center...
persian is a race. iran is a country. just cuz a country changes its name 75 yrs ago doesnt change their race. eg: people from the netherlands are Dutch not netherlandian. open a book.

also if theres churches and synagogues theres, they have been there for years. im sure theyre not newly built. and that religion also didnt try to blow up 3000 people at that exact same location. its like christians going and building a church right where Mecca is. im sure that wouldnt fly with saudi arabia
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Last edited by roozie2001; 08-10-2010 at 03:12 PM.
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      08-10-2010, 03:13 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by SfValley335i View Post
Persian?? I thought all of them died long long time ago. I think you mean you're Iranian.

From what I've been told theres Churches and Synagogues near the world financial center...
no its persian...


Quote:
Originally Posted by roozie2001 View Post
persian is a race. iran is a country. just cuz a country changes its name 75 yrs ago doesnt change their race. eg: people from the netherlands are Dutch not netherlandian. open a book.

Last edited by ghosthi32; 08-10-2010 at 03:21 PM.
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      08-11-2010, 07:29 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roozie2001 View Post
and that religion also didnt try to blow up 3000 people at that exact same location.
Wow, the religion did all that?
The religion flew the plane? or some psycho mofos?
The religion told them "thou shall hijack a plane and crash it into the WTC"? shit.. if it has that much insight to predict planes at the time that the Qur'an was written and the WTC and that it should turn to rubble, maybe it really is omnipotent..

no.. a bunch of crazy mofos did it.
the same way Hitler is a crazy mofo does not make all Christians or Germans crazy mofos...
Hey, he was Christian.. thus all Christians want to end the Jews by your logic.
But yet there are churches in Israel (a quick google search yielded results).

Religion isn't the reason here.. it is a bunch of insane mental cases that decide to interpret it in a very twisted manner.

I live in a country that is half Muslim, and none of my Muslim friends are suicide bombers....

I'm a Christian of German decent.. do I want to end the Jews? no... do you? probably not..

you are being ignorant and punishing the masses for the faults of a vocal few..
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      08-11-2010, 05:38 PM   #65
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Oh, and why don't you worry about Christians? The Bible also states that non-believers should be killed. In fact, here's the passage,

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10
I always find it hilarious when non-Christians point to Old Testament verses. Most Christians know (or should know) that we're in the New Testament age. And, as far as I know, nowhere in the New Testament does it state that non-believers should be killed. In fact, the concept of a "believer" (or a "Christian", for that matter) did not exist in the Old Testament age, so the comment above is a non-sequitur.
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      08-11-2010, 05:49 PM   #66
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I say scrap the Mosque idea and erect a Starbucks there instead. We don't have enough Starbucks!!!!
I'm pretty sure both Christians and Muslims drink coffee, so no controversy.
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