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      08-03-2010, 06:47 AM   #23
hks786
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Yeah... You arent saying anything outside of what I did. They condemn all they want to they are blue in the face, then back door support them. Not all, but more than a few. And it propogates this, and it will not end untill Islam wants it to. Or at least someone in power stops speaking for them and starts speaking for Islam.
I really don't understand what your logic here is. What is Islam? What is Christianity? These are religions which exist in the form of books and texts.

I should point out that these religions are NOT animate objects that act for themselves. Islam is a religion that was given to us 1400 years ago. Not all people follow it correctly just the same as not all people follow other religions correctly such as Christianity or even laws of their country.

I also find it quite strange that you seem to know everything about what really goes on in the world today. You seem to know who runs things and who funds who. If you believe everything you hear in the media you are the crazy one.

Take for example the Iraq war. We were sold it by politicians and western media and were told there was proof of weapons. When we got into the country there were NO weapons. Look at the amount of Iraqi people and soldiers we have lost and money spent on this war. All sold to us on LIES.
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      08-03-2010, 08:12 AM   #24
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This is where u are wrong. The world at large cannot separate the two ideas because the religion itself will not step up and separate the ideas, and condemn publicly and privately the members involved in terrorist activities. Behind the curtain veiled off from the world eye, the Terrorists have full control over top people in the religion and therefore use it to spread their radical views and recruit young otherwise innocent people. And they use it to control the land in which that religion thrives.

Its as simple as that.
I couldn't agree more.

Even though the organizations in the USA did send an message saying they weren't part of these events, (I hope so), the main countries/concentration of people practicing this Religion didn't say *****, and this is where the USA does not like it.

But I totally see why some people are mad about it, but I wouldn't care. But I can see why. Its not like WWII, it is still fresh for a LOT of people in the US.
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      08-03-2010, 09:34 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
I really don't understand what your logic here is. What is Islam? What is Christianity? These are religions which exist in the form of books and texts.

I should point out that these religions are NOT animate objects that act for themselves. Islam is a religion that was given to us 1400 years ago. Not all people follow it correctly just the same as not all people follow other religions correctly such as Christianity or even laws of their country.

I also find it quite strange that you seem to know everything about what really goes on in the world today. You seem to know who runs things and who funds who. If you believe everything you hear in the media you are the crazy one.

Take for example the Iraq war. We were sold it by politicians and western media and were told there was proof of weapons. When we got into the country there were NO weapons. Look at the amount of Iraqi people and soldiers we have lost and money spent on this war. All sold to us on LIES.


The War, your bringing this into it.... One person fucked up do to what???? Yeah, that would be the personell behind the scenes pulling the strings to make him say what he did, and do what we did.

THAT IS MY EXACT FUCKING POINT!!!!!!!!!!!! Stupid people in power controlling what happens. Doesnt mean all the people in the United States Military believe or condone what was happened, does it... Thought not. We have a chance to voice our oppinions and change the persons in power through free elections. The others over there in the Islamic world, they do not, becasue those in power will kill you if you speak up against it, and in controll everything, controll the powers that make thwier world what it is. Thats my point pal.
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      08-03-2010, 03:33 PM   #26
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The War, your bringing this into it.... One person fucked up do to what???? Yeah, that would be the personell behind the scenes pulling the strings to make him say what he did, and do what we did.

THAT IS MY EXACT FUCKING POINT!!!!!!!!!!!! Stupid people in power controlling what happens. Doesnt mean all the people in the United States Military believe or condone what was happened, does it... Thought not. We have a chance to voice our oppinions and change the persons in power through free elections. The others over there in the Islamic world, they do not, becasue those in power will kill you if you speak up against it, and in controll everything, controll the powers that make thwier world what it is. Thats my point pal.
BS. From all your posts you are trying to tie Islam as a religion to bad examples of muslims such as terrorists to make the religion itself look bad. Now you are trying to show that the "Islamic" world is very dark and things happen behind closed doors but in the west things are brilliant and we have freedom of speech and voting etc.

If you really believe that then you're wrong. You admitted than UK and US citizens did not agree with the war and we protested BEFORE the war but the governments went ahead with it anyway based on LIES. So many things happen these days. Even in these brilliant democratic systems we just vote people to power. They serve a minimum term in which they can do what the hell they want and not even stick to what they promised before they had the office.

Here in the UK so many things become policy and law but if it went to public vote it would not happen. Therefore, you cannot say we have complete control of our country.
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      08-03-2010, 05:50 PM   #27
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      08-03-2010, 07:32 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
BS. From all your posts you are trying to tie Islam as a religion to bad examples of muslims such as terrorists to make the religion itself look bad. Now you are trying to show that the "Islamic" world is very dark and things happen behind closed doors but in the west things are brilliant and we have freedom of speech and voting etc.

I finally agree with you hks786.

As someone once said... Religion is cause of all evil.
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      08-03-2010, 07:40 PM   #29
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I finally agree with you hks786.

As someone once said... Religion is cause of all evil.
lol fine lets just agree to disagree
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      08-03-2010, 07:53 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Daniel135i View Post
Yeah... You arent saying anything outside of what I did. They condemn all they want to they are blue in the face, then back door support them. Not all, but more than a few. And it propogates this, and it will not end untill Islam wants it to. Or at least someone in power stops speaking for them and starts speaking for Islam.
For someone who spent so much time in the military, I find your comments quite amusing. To say that its all in the hands of Islam and muslims to fix is a big joke; this cannot be fixed by any one party. And if you're going to talk about "back door" support, let's talk about the US too.

Let's not forget that Saddam Hussain was first a trained operative of the CIA and well funded by the US government in the 1980s. Next, let's consider that the biggest financial/military backer of the Saudi government is the US and if it wasn't for the US, the Saudi Royals and their nutjob Wahabi clerics would have been run out of the country by now. And the US put a huge arsenal of weaponry into the hands of the Mujahideen in Afganistan (now pretty much Al-Qaeda) in a shortsighted attempt to beat the Russians, even when the Egyptians (from where most were expelled) pleaded with the US not to.

That being said, I in no way believe that the US be blamed for what's happened. 9/11 was a crime against all humanity. To blame any one side for what's happened and continues to happen is exactly why these conflicts will continue. At some point, everyone is guilty, let's get over the blame game and move on. This to me is the point of having a mosque near ground zero.

PS. Does anyone have an actual quote from the Imam stating that he wants to institute Sharia law? From what I saw, it actually stemmed from his statement, "What are the principles that make a state Islamic? We can say among them is justice, protection of religion and minorities, and elimination of poverty, and so on." I've seen this quote picked apart on many sites, but I don't see how you take this statement and turn it into something pro-Sharia law.

PS. I agree, let's just get rid of religion, it'll solve 99% of the world's problems.

Last edited by sawzall; 08-03-2010 at 08:00 PM.
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      08-03-2010, 08:30 PM   #31
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And the US put a huge arsenal of weaponry into the hands of the Mujahideen in Afganistan (now pretty much Al-Qaeda) in a shortsighted attempt to beat the Russians, even when the Egyptians (from where most were expelled) pleaded with the US not to.


The Mujahideen of the 80s are NOT the Taliban of today, let alone "al qaeda" which is an arab group.

Taliban are the orphans and some other uneducated refugees that went to "school" in Pakistan, memorized a holy book in a language they do not understand and graduated as animals.

This Islamic "extremism" is a direct cause from the U.S. & the 'West' backing Israel in the Palestinian conflict.

If an attack on Iran happens these extremists will use that as another attack on their religion... Its just adding more fuel to the fire. Even though the Iranians follow a different sect from the typical extremist.

I got to say this will be some interesting stuff to our kids will read about in history books...
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      08-03-2010, 09:14 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by SfValley335i View Post
The Mujahideen of the 80s are NOT the Taliban of today, let alone "al qaeda" which is an arab group.

Taliban are the orphans and some other uneducated refugees that went to "school" in Pakistan, memorized a holy book in a language they do not understand and graduated as animals.
SfValley335i, I admit to a certain amount of exaggeration, in the hopes of dumbing it down for some of the people who responded to this thread. You obviously have a much more extensive view than most. That being said, I hope you'll agree that a part of the Arab component of the Mujahudeen (Bin Laden himself and Maktab al-Khadamat) first fought under this banner, and then extended themselves into Al Qaeda as it is known today. Allow me to refine my statement. The Mujahudeen and Al Qaeda are to separate groups, however, Al Qaeda has much of its roots in the Mujahudeen. I agree that much of the current generation of Taliban come from Pakistan and Afganistan. It was during the 80s in Afganistan where many of the top Al Qaeda brass earned their 'stripes'. My main point originally being that the US helped fund and create this organization.


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This Islamic "extremism" is a direct cause from the U.S. & the 'West' backing Israel in the Palestinian conflict.
With this point, I have to disagree. While the Israel conflict plays a major part in the issue today, I would look back to the formation of the countries of the Middle East by the 'western powers' as the cause for extremism today. The installation of the oppressive regimes throughout the Middle East can all be tied to the deals made at the end of world war II. Ignoring the Kurds, fusing together Sunnis and Shias, allowing Wahabis to extend themselves beyond their limited following before WWII and poverty (in no small measure) are all causes for extremism today.

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If an attack on Iran happens these extremists will use that as another attack on their religion... Its just adding more fuel to the fire. Even though the Iranians follow a different sect from the typical extremist.
Iran is a whole different story, let's not go there. Suffice it to say, the corrupt regime of the Shah, held up by the US was a reason for the Islamic revolution (however major or minor, I won't debate). That being said, the mullahs are a corrupt, decrepit bunch of despots, killing off what could easily be the most enlightened and educated Islamic country. I would go so far as to say that the Iran of today is what I see the US becoming if the US right wing gets their way.

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I got to say this will be some interesting stuff to our kids will read about in history books...
Agreed. To me, US intervention in the middle east is very much like the result of the Treaty of Versailles post-WWI. Hastily made 'peaceful' initiatives eventually drove the world right into WWII.

Last edited by sawzall; 08-03-2010 at 09:25 PM.
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      08-04-2010, 01:41 AM   #33
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SfValley335i, I admit to a certain amount of exaggeration, in the hopes of dumbing it down for some of the people who responded to this thread. You obviously have a much more extensive view than most. That being said, I hope you'll agree that a part of the Arab component of the Mujahudeen (Bin Laden himself and Maktab al-Khadamat) first fought under this banner, and then extended themselves into Al Qaeda as it is known today. Allow me to refine my statement. The Mujahudeen and Al Qaeda are to separate groups, however, Al Qaeda has much of its roots in the Mujahudeen. I agree that much of the current generation of Taliban come from Pakistan and Afganistan. It was during the 80s in Afganistan where many of the top Al Qaeda brass earned their 'stripes'. My main point originally being that the US helped fund and create this organization.

Thanks for clearing it up...
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      08-04-2010, 11:29 AM   #34
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agree to disagree...... I know how I feel, and what I know, and the majority that arent blind as well.
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      08-04-2010, 05:01 PM   #35
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Having needed fear of the evil empire to fuel the military-industrial complex, these days it seems to be fear of the muslims. The muslims are coming! Run for your lives!

FFS there is no war. The War Against Terrorism (use its acronym for short) was a sideshow - you cannot defeat an idea with guns. Go ask any military leader. And who are the losers in this "war"? Not America, not having made zillions of dollars for its companies fuelling the invasion of Iraq then the contracts to rebuild. Its the muslims you fear. You want to know what terrorism is? Its the act of being terrorised. Try living in Iraq and Afghanistan - the countries that our countries decided to bomb - and see what terrorism actually feels like.

You want to encourage extremist ideas? Blame an entire religion for the actions of a handful, and kill them in their tens of thousands. T.W.A.T. was a war of monsterous stupidity that has made things much worse. Blair and Bush deserve congratulations.

As for the mosque, let them build it. What does Islam have to do with ground zero anyway? If I call myself Australian it doesn't make it so. Why punish a religion for the actions of so few who steal its name to carry out exactly the kind of acts that the faith abhors?
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      08-04-2010, 09:18 PM   #36
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Why punish a religion for the actions of so few who steal its name to carry out exactly the kind of acts that the faith abhors?
Since Aznar dont give you the answer, let Putin speak. Subtle metaphor.

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      08-05-2010, 11:50 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Rochdale Pioneers View Post
Having needed fear of the evil empire to fuel the military-industrial complex, these days it seems to be fear of the muslims. The muslims are coming! Run for your lives!

FFS there is no war. The War Against Terrorism (use its acronym for short) was a sideshow - you cannot defeat an idea with guns. Go ask any military leader. And who are the losers in this "war"? Not America, not having made zillions of dollars for its companies fuelling the invasion of Iraq then the contracts to rebuild. Its the muslims you fear. You want to know what terrorism is? Its the act of being terrorised. Try living in Iraq and Afghanistan - the countries that our countries decided to bomb - and see what terrorism actually feels like.

You want to encourage extremist ideas? Blame an entire religion for the actions of a handful, and kill them in their tens of thousands. T.W.A.T. was a war of monsterous stupidity that has made things much worse. Blair and Bush deserve congratulations.

As for the mosque, let them build it. What does Islam have to do with ground zero anyway? If I call myself Australian it doesn't make it so. Why punish a religion for the actions of so few who steal its name to carry out exactly the kind of acts that the faith abhors?
You have no idea looking from the outside in pal... Keep your opinions in your head, and quit spouting off that we all hate Islam and Muslims and all the people in the ME. I can just about with certainty say you havent been in any kind of conflict, so touting the war, and the people lives affected has little impact on your mind when you haveent the slightest idea of what it is like to be there, in that situation. I, one of the few on here probably do. And you couldnt be farther from the truth. I dont hate Islams or Muslims, I hate the people using chicken shit tactics to kill civilians and targets of opportunity to prove they are better. I hate the idea of what that Mosque WILL stand for if it is built, not what it is "supposed" to represent.


Keep looking through that window from the outside, maybe you might be able to form an educated opinion you didnt hear first on TV or a forum.
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      08-05-2010, 08:27 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Daniel135i View Post
I dont hate Islams or Muslims, I hate the people using chicken shit tactics to kill civilians and targets of opportunity to prove they are better.
+1. Well said!

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I hate the idea of what that Mosque WILL stand for if it is built, not what it is "supposed" to represent.
What will the mosque represent? So far, the only people who are spreading a negative view of the mosque are people on the far neo-con right. Even Bloomberg came out and said he thought the mosque a positive step for the city.
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      08-05-2010, 08:37 PM   #39
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Some are applying western, American ideas and ways to a "religion" that represents a threat to all of us. The arguments have all been made but before anyone reaches out with a pat answer just imagine if you will, an America under Sharia law. That will tell you all you need to know about Islam. Islam is an aggressive, violent, misogynist and backward looking method of societal control. It has to be recognized for what it is and confronted at every turn.
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      08-05-2010, 08:53 PM   #40
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... just imagine if you will, an America under Sharia law.
I hear what you're saying, but who is proposing Sharia law for America!? The Imam involved with the ground zero mosque has never said (at least from everything i've researched) that Sharia law should be applied in America (see my post earlier - #30). Someone show me hard evidence to the contrary!
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      08-05-2010, 09:22 PM   #41
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Some are applying western, American ideas and ways to a "religion" that represents a threat to all of us. The arguments have all been made but before anyone reaches out with a pat answer just imagine if you will, an America under Sharia law. That will tell you all you need to know about Islam. Islam is an aggressive, violent, misogynist and backward looking method of societal control. It has to be recognized for what it is and confronted at every turn.
Listen to this man. I suscribe word by word. Then if im a nazi or something, as the cool tolerant people like to call to the ones who tell what they think, i say: a "nazi" before a cynical hypocritical. Thats the point, who's the fascist? me beacuse i dont like muslims, or you who force me to like them? did you understand?

Gentlemans, my wanted, dreamed America, with the symbol of the islamic ideals they killed for, in the same place where they do it ... no way. You can count with my conquer spaniard sword to defense and protect USA. Got the experience in my DNA. We kicked out of my country (where they dont came peacefully) and we protected Europe of the otomans intruders when we was the Empire.

Muslims in they lands. Our in ours. End of the story.

Fuck.
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      08-05-2010, 09:44 PM   #42
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The mosque and its Imam are a minor side issue IMHO. My reading of the Q'uran tells me that imposition of Sharia law, total dedication to conversion or killing of non-believers, sanctioned lying and deception and an ever-expanding Caliphate are all specific goals of Islam. I'm not emotional about Moslems nor do I hate them. But I listen to what is said and read what is written.

It reminds me of the punchline to the old joke, "What's the problem, I told you I was a snake?" Well, I take Moslems at their word.

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I hear what you're saying, but who is proposing Sharia law for America!? The Imam involved with the ground zero mosque has never said (at least from everything i've researched) that Sharia law should be applied in America (see my post earlier - #30). Someone show me hard evidence to the contrary!
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      08-05-2010, 10:33 PM   #43
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To me, if i was an american, only the proposal itself could make me spit in front of who said it. Its a offense, an insult. Just read; muslims, budits, reptilians or whatever, it doesnt matter! I repit, is a symbol of the ones who kill in the same place they did it. Fuck the tolerants, the merciful and the hippies. Fuck them.

Say no to the Mosque! and BRING ME FEGELEIN!!! FEGELEIN!!! FEGELEIN!!! FEGELEIN!!!
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      08-05-2010, 10:41 PM   #44
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you are odd javi
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