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      06-01-2010, 12:10 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
This is the second version of the RBR story. Intially they blamed it on MW. Most of the people in Paddock didn't agree with them on their intial assement so this their retract story.
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      06-01-2010, 12:15 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by G-Mach1 View Post
This is the second version of the RBR story. Intially they blamed it on MW. Most of the people in Paddock didn't agree with them on their intial assement so this their retract story.
That's why its a PR disaster for RBR...
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      06-01-2010, 12:37 PM   #69
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This whole situation stinks to high heaven...Vettel made the move, the blame lies on him. If he was so damn fast then why even bring into the discussion the pressure from Hamilton? Both RBR cars had the advantage in handling only losing edge on the straights.

SV pushed it too hard and should take 100% of the blame. He faked high side (where he had MORE room) and then cut low towards the grass. He clearly was trying to showboat rather than make a clean move. As far as i'm concerned the leader of the race has EVERY right to protect his position (something that Webber could have done more aggressively).

Vettel was 2/3 of a car length ahead of Webber when he cut right, what did he think was going to happen? Webber would jamb on the brakes and let Hamilton get a run at him too?! Yeah...team player... he was trying to sacrifice Webber to the wolves of McLaren.

Thumbs down to Vettel for a poor show of maturity....and thumbs down to Christian Horner for being Politically Correct in blaming both drivers. Webber raced hard....fended off Hamilton for the bulk of the race...he deserved better... MUCH better.

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing...ory?id=5233815
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      06-01-2010, 12:44 PM   #70
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      06-01-2010, 12:44 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
I never said it was MWs fault. You're comparing 2 very different personalities. Kimi isn't exactly Mr.Charisma while SV is very a light-hearted kid trying to get a functioning car under him so he can win the races he was so capable of winning. I still don't see where he's behaving "like this." His team mate was ahead of him driving slower than he was so he tried to pass. These guys are race car drivers... they're aggressive by nature. It was a racing incident, albeit a stupid one.
Agree 100% no need for further discussion.
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      06-01-2010, 12:47 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by albo View Post
This whole situation stinks to high heaven...Vettel made the move, the blame lies on him. If he was so damn fast then why even bring into the discussion the pressure from Hamilton? Both RBR cars had the advantage in handling only losing edge on the straights.

SV pushed it too hard and should take 100% of the blame. He faked high side (where he had MORE room) and then cut low towards the grass. He clearly was trying to showboat rather than make a clean move. As far as i'm concerned the leader of the race has EVERY right to protect his position (something that Webber could have done more aggressively).

Vettel was 2/3 of a car length ahead of Webber when he cut right, what did he think was going to happen? Webber would jamb on the brakes and let Hamilton get a run at him too?! Yeah...team player... he was trying to sacrifice Webber to the wolves of McLaren.

Thumbs down to Vettel for a poor show of maturity....and thumbs down to Christian Horner for being Politically Correct in blaming both drivers. Webber raced hard....fended off Hamilton for the bulk of the race...he deserved better... MUCH better.

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing...ory?id=5233815
You are correct for Webber to defend his position, but Vettel also has his right to challenge when he's faster. and Horner MUST play political correct speech.

What do you think will happen if C Horner doesn't play political correctness? The RBR team might cause a meltdown and just what McLaren, Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault wants!

I guess only Flavio Biatore will openly say which driver he's more favor to.
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      06-01-2010, 12:47 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albo View Post
This whole situation stinks to high heaven...Vettel made the move, the blame lies on him. If he was so damn fast then why even bring into the discussion the pressure from Hamilton? Both RBR cars had the advantage in handling only losing edge on the straights.

SV pushed it too hard and should take 100% of the blame. He faked high side (where he had MORE room) and then cut low towards the grass. He clearly was trying to showboat rather than make a clean move. As far as i'm concerned the leader of the race has EVERY right to protect his position (something that Webber could have done more aggressively).

Vettel was 2/3 of a car length ahead of Webber when he cut right, what did he think was going to happen? Webber would jamb on the brakes and let Hamilton get a run at him too?! Yeah...team player... he was trying to sacrifice Webber to the wolves of McLaren.

Thumbs down to Vettel for a poor show of maturity....and thumbs down to Christian Horner for being Politically Correct in blaming both drivers. Webber raced hard....fended off Hamilton for the bulk of the race...he deserved better... MUCH better.

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing...ory?id=5233815
I disagree in that when Vettel had both the inside line and 2 meters on Webber, Webber should have yeilded. I believe it was mentioned that Vettel was too close to the inside to slow down and make the turn in the right line. Once he had the lead and the line on Webber, Webber should have yielded. his stubborn style lead to the loss of his team points and his 1st or 2nd position finish. Instead he ended up as 3rd because he got greedy for the hat trick win.

As for the argument against Vettel making the move in the first place, he was clearly faster on that straight. The sudden jerk right seemed more to me like a quirk than an intended steering maneuver. Watching the replay, and focusing on Vettel's steering wheel it seemed like he was trying to hold it in a straight line to me.
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      06-01-2010, 02:05 PM   #74
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Having read every article out there on the incident... I really believe the fault falls 100% on the team not on the drivers... They told MW to switch to fuel saving mode... they opened the door for this to happen, knowing that SV will be too aggressive because of the season's frustrations so far and because of the charging Mclarens on his tail.. They also knew how stubborn MW will be ... And yet still, they opened the door for all this to happen by telling MW to start saving fuel and allowing SV to be that much faster and make the move....

This whole fuel saving mode is pure BS... It just opens the doors for all kinds of BS between teammates... for what? 0.1 seconds in the first stages of the races that you will have to give up at the end of the race once you switch to race saving mode??

I say it's not worth it... Fuel them enough to fight the whole way and avoid the potential for this kind of BS...

Last edited by Ramos; 06-01-2010 at 03:25 PM.
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      06-01-2010, 02:14 PM   #75
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MB = MW?

The more I read the more I'm inclinded to agree.
The team is obviously pushing SV.
IIRC MW's contract is up this year, don't be surprised if he's gone after this year.
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      06-01-2010, 02:31 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
Having read every article out there on the incident... I really believe the fault falls 100% on the team not on the drivers... They told MB to switch to fuel saving mode... they opened the door for this to happen, knowing that SV will be too aggressive because of the season's frustrations so far and because of the charging Mclarens on his tail.. They also knew how stubborn MB will be ... And yet still, they opened the door for all this to happen by telling MB to start saving fuel and allowing SV to be that much faster and make the move....

This whole fuel saving mode is pure BS... It just opens the doors for all kinds of BS between teammates... for what? 0.1 seconds in the first stages of the races that you will have to give up at the end of the race once you switch to race saving mode??

I say it's not worth it... Fuel them enough to fight the whole way and avoid the potential for this kind of BS...
However fuel them enough, they will be bitching the car is too heavy and the tires are graining too quickly...and the pace in beginning laps will be slower than those calculated just enough fuel, and stuck somewhere mid-pack.
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      06-01-2010, 02:32 PM   #77
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Plus I think "conserve fuel" is a code-word for "team order" to keep position.
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      06-01-2010, 02:33 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
MB = MW?

The more I read the more I'm inclinded to agree.
The team is obviously pushing SV.
IIRC MW's contract is up this year, don't be surprised if he's gone after this year.
I'd say he's reviewing other contract offers very seriously right now.
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      06-01-2010, 03:30 PM   #79
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Yes I meant MW not MB (fixed now)
This is the article I was referring to:

As explained by Martin Brundle in his column for the BBC:

'One trigger for the problems is that the teams are starting races this year knowing that at some point they must save fuel to get to the finish. It sounds crazy but it costs a 10th of a second a lap to carry a lap's worth of fuel. In the 58-lap Turkish Grand Prix, that is equivalent to 5.8 seconds.

'When we saw the two Red Bulls and the two McLarens all circulating within a total of 2.2 seconds after 40 laps yesterday you can see the relevance.

'So the teams under-fill their cars as much as they dare so they are as fast as possible in the crucial early part of the race leading up to the pit stops, knowing they can back the engines off to save fuel when they have secured their track position later on.'

An identical instruction to Button and Hamilton would have spared McLaren a heart-stopping moment of their own, but according to Horner the only reason Vettel had an additional lap of optimal engine mode compared to Webber was because "he saved a bit more fuel because he was in the slipstream for a while".

When the teams are as close as they were in Turkey, such small variables make the biggest of differences. By luck rather than design, the ban on refuelling is finally threatening to throw some additional drama into the mix.
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      06-01-2010, 03:31 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
Plus I think "conserve fuel" is a code-word for "team order" to keep position.
I used to think the same thing, but see the comments I posted just above from Brundle, and it seems that teams are truly short fueling their cars by one lap on purpose to gain 1/10 a lap in the stint prior to the pit stops...
If it were just code for maitain position, the Red Bull teams would be a litlle bit more pissed off at vettel...
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      06-01-2010, 03:37 PM   #81
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Mark Webber is as good as gone from Red Bull... Whether he retires at the end of the year is now in Kubica's hands... Webber won't go to a team that can't fight for wins, or at least has a shot of improving and fighting for wins (Think Top 4 teams and Renault)

The only seat he will have is at Renault if Kubica moves to Ferrari and either Massa or Raikonnen go to Red Bull...

If Raikonnen goes to Red Bull and Ferrari and renault swap Kubica for Massa, then good ol'd Webber is out of the sport...
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      06-01-2010, 03:56 PM   #82
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While I agree with your theory, Ramos, I kind of doubt that Kubica will be leaving Renault. He's their top driver and the team is pretty competitive and working very well together. I know he is friends with Alonso and everyone dreams of driving for the prancing horse but it would be stupid to leave a #1 spot at a still competitive team to play second fiddle for a team that would have no trouble selling you up the river (like they are going to do to Massa).
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      06-01-2010, 03:58 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
I used to think the same thing, but see the comments I posted just above from Brundle, and it seems that teams are truly short fueling their cars by one lap on purpose to gain 1/10 a lap in the stint prior to the pit stops...
If it were just code for maitain position, the Red Bull teams would be a litlle bit more pissed off at vettel...
I agree, or I think its a mix of both, maybe now the teams would think...maybe i can tell my driver to "conserve fuel" in order not to violate "team order" rules.

I was saying this earlier, team will NEVER let their race cars to carry anything more than what it needs to finish the race plus in-lap. So what you said earlier to put more fuel and let them race harder is not what they want.

I guess we all forgot "Fuel mixture" when we looked at 2010 season before Bahrain. we all thought everyone have the same "amount" of fuel and similar heavy cars. We only guessed some correct. Now teams are playing with fuel mixture to secure track position and enough gap early. dial the mixture to more lean, and cruise to victory.
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      06-01-2010, 04:00 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
While I agree with your theory, Ramos, I kind of doubt that Kubica will be leaving Renault. He's their top driver and the team is pretty competitive and working very well together. I know he is friends with Alonso and everyone dreams of driving for the prancing horse but it would be stupid to leave a #1 spot at a still competitive team to play second fiddle for a team that would have no trouble selling you up the river (like they are going to do to Massa).
Maybe Nick Heidfeld for SF next season?
I'd like to see him back on the track.

When BBC interviewed Stefano before Turkish GP, he kinda admit there will be driver change at the end of 2010. Apparently that will be Felipe, I don't think SF will let Fernando leave with just one season.
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      06-01-2010, 04:12 PM   #85
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I agree, or I think its a mix of both, maybe now the teams would think...maybe i can tell my driver to "conserve fuel" in order not to violate "team order" rules.

I was saying this earlier, team will NEVER let their race cars to carry anything more than what it needs to finish the race plus in-lap. So what you said earlier to put more fuel and let them race harder is not what they want.

I guess we all forgot "Fuel mixture" when we looked at 2010 season before Bahrain. we all thought everyone have the same "amount" of fuel and similar heavy cars. We only guessed some correct. Now teams are playing with fuel mixture to secure track position and enough gap early. dial the mixture to more lean, and cruise to victory.

Agree on the strategy being employed, and not just controlling the mixture, also cutting down on the RPM's and short shifting...

However my point is, all of this is done to save one lap worth of fuel (3KG, 5 Lbs) which only shaves off 1/10

Is 1/10 really worth it? I mean, would it be that much easier to overtake or be overtaken with a 1/10 difference? In quali, of course it would matter, but in the race I don't think it does especially when the price to pay could be one of the following;

1. What happened to the Red Bull's (this will cost them both championships, make no mistake about it)

2. What happened to Mclaren... While there was no contact, LH was visibily upset that he was told to save fuel and had his teammate sneak by him

3. One or both cars run out of fuel and not finish

Are any of these scenarios really worth 1/10 in the early stages of the race? When we all know a car has to be at least 2 seconds faster to realistically have a chance at a clean overtaking move ?
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      06-01-2010, 04:32 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
Agree on the strategy being employed, and not just controlling the mixture, also cutting down on the RPM's and short shifting...

However my point is, all of this is done to save one lap worth of fuel (3KG, 5 Lbs) which only shaves off 1/10

Is 1/10 really worth it? I mean, would it be that much easier to overtake or be overtaken with a 1/10 difference? In quali, of course it would matter, but in the race I don't think it does especially when the price to pay could be one of the following;

1. What happened to the Red Bull's (this will cost them both championships, make no mistake about it)

2. What happened to Mclaren... While there was no contact, LH was visibily upset that he was told to save fuel and had his teammate sneak by him

3. One or both cars run out of fuel and not finish

Are any of these scenarios really worth 1/10 in the early stages of the race? When we all know a car has to be at least 2 seconds faster to realistically have a chance at a clean overtaking move ?
However, to carry that 3KG for 58 laps is something quite heavy. Let's say you save 1/10 a lap, for 58 laps, that's 5.8 seconds. I was just doing straight math, I have not include the actual deficit of carrying those "extra" weight with not much actual gain. Plus, you burning more fuel to "carry" those "extra" fuel weight.
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      06-01-2010, 05:58 PM   #87
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5.8 seconds only matter if you are in clean air... When it comes to overtaking or defending a position, it is no longer 5.8 seconds, you are just "stuck" at the pace of the car in front, and 1/10 won't help you defend or overtake...
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      06-01-2010, 06:26 PM   #88
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5.8 seconds only matter if you are in clean air... When it comes to overtaking or defending a position, it is no longer 5.8 seconds, you are just "stuck" at the pace of the car in front, and 1/10 won't help you defend or overtake...
Of Course strategy is not just simple 5.8 seconds i made up based on the number you said 1/10 second per lap.

There's so many factors contribute to racing fuel consumption, track configuration, engine spec, car weight, driver habit, temperature, humidity, race condition and even wind!

Anyways, what I'm saying is the most ideal scenario is when the car finish the race and park at parcferme, there's just no fuel remaining and car weight just above the FIA minimum weight (620kg or something). The more fuel they carry, the worse the average pace, tire degradation, and overtaking ability. So the team strategy is to either short fuel, or fuel just enough to finish the race. Since no refueling and cannot adjust the strategy based on race condition, drivers might have to fight for position and conserve just enough to finish the race.
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