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      05-10-2010, 10:07 AM   #1
e.n335
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ESS VT1 vs ESS VT2 - IAT's

Hi,

I do my resarch for supercharging my M3. Objective is to do this in about one year. Then I will know for sure my engine is ok and there will be some more experience around by bolting on SC's to the S65.

ATM I would prefer to start with the ESS VT1 and in case I really want/need more power to upgrade to VT2.

Now, how much is the IAT temperature difference when you compare

- VT1 @ 4.5 psi, non intercooled, ambient temp is 80 degF
- VT2 @ 5.5 psi, intercooled, ambient temp is 80 degF as well

Even here in Switzerland we get ~ 100 degF on hot summerdays. Would a VT1 still be appropriate or will IAT's go through the roof ?

Thanks,
Eugen
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      05-11-2010, 05:02 AM   #2
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Here is some temp numbers:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ht=IAT&page=13
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Last edited by 808E90; 05-11-2010 at 05:27 AM.
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      05-11-2010, 06:28 AM   #3
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Based on the information in the referred thread and some info I got from Roman a few weeks ago it will likely be that:

- 5.5 - 6.0 psi intercooled boost will result in IAT's 50 degF over ambient
- 4.0 psi non intercooled boost will result in IAT's 50 degF over ambient as well

In case it is like this, it will be very good for my planned 4.0 psi ESS VT1 kit. Can someone confirm, please ?

On the other hand it will mean that in either case on hot summerdays IAT's of 150 degF ( 65.56 degC ) are possible. Any concerns to that ?

Thanks,
Eugen

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808E90:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 808E90 View Post
Could you please check your IAT's ( e.g. by using a BT cable ) and measure your IAT temp increase with your 4.5 psi ESS VT1 SC kit compared to ambient temps ? This would be a great help.

Thanks,
Eugen
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      05-11-2010, 07:56 AM   #4
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In that thread here - http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=163 - ESS mentions +90F on non-intercooled setup, although this is running 5PSI of boost.

So I would guess 60-70F is probably more like it for 4.0PSI non-intercooled - but ESS surely have done more testing/refinement so maybe they are seeing only +50F non-intercooled @ 4PSI
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      05-11-2010, 08:48 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
In that thread here - http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=163 - ESS mentions +90F on non-intercooled setup, although this is running 5PSI of boost.

So I would guess 60-70F is probably more like it for 4.0PSI non-intercooled - but ESS surely have done more testing/refinement so maybe they are seeing only +50F non-intercooled @ 4PSI
Thanks, I see ... Roman told me approx. +50 degF for VT1 @ 4.0 psi which would be not bad at all, IMO. This will give you ~ +90 - +100 bhp.
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      05-13-2010, 05:37 PM   #6
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First of all that is a great question.

I have been collecting this kind of data for awhile. I'm sure some people will find this information very informative.

The VT1 4.5 psi kit is normally about 45 degrees hotter than the ambient temperature just driving around normally. However, once you get that blower to working things start to heat up. If you go to WOT starting in 1st gear by the time you hit 5th gear the incoming air is now 77 degrees hotter.

I upgraded my VT1 kit to the 5.5psi pulley which added an additional 10 degrees.
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      05-14-2010, 05:29 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikewads View Post
First of all that is a great question.

I have been collecting this kind of data for awhile. I'm sure some people will find this information very informative.

The VT1 4.5 psi kit is normally about 45 degrees hotter than the ambient temperature just driving around normally. However, once you get that blower to working things start to heat up. If you go to WOT starting in 1st gear by the time you hit 5th gear the incoming air is now 77 degrees hotter.

I upgraded my VT1 kit to the 5.5psi pulley which added an additional 10 degrees.
Thanks, great information. I hope, more will chime in with concrete IAT numbers, especially for VT2 kits.

Eugen
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      05-14-2010, 06:35 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikewads View Post
First of all that is a great question.

I have been collecting this kind of data for awhile. I'm sure some people will find this information very informative.

The VT1 4.5 psi kit is normally about 45 degrees hotter than the ambient temperature just driving around normally. However, once you get that blower to working things start to heat up. If you go to WOT starting in 1st gear by the time you hit 5th gear the incoming air is now 77 degrees hotter.

I upgraded my VT1 kit to the 5.5psi pulley which added an additional 10 degrees.
In other words, run the VT1 on the track at your own peril. If I was going FI it would definitely be the VT2 kit.
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      05-14-2010, 07:13 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
In other words, run the VT1 on the track at your own peril. If I was going FI it would definitely be the VT2 kit.
It's more complex. Every IC causes a pressure drop which is normally compensated by the charger, so it has to produce more boost ( and heat ) due to the IC. That's why I really look for VT1 non intercooled boost temps and VT2 intercooled boost temps to compare. I don't go for huge power increase, where the IC may be obsolete and in case tracking would be an issue, water injection ( not water / meth ) would do a very good job as well, IMO.

I'm sure ESS knows everything so I'm looking forward to them for chiming in. Especially the high CR of the S65 makes this engine more prone to detonation going FI than other engines.

Eugen
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      05-14-2010, 05:57 PM   #10
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The last time we measured AIT's here in Phoenix we did so with a stock car, the VT1-535 and the VT2-600. Ambient temp during dyno testing was 90F. The stock motor had an AIT around 110F due to radiant engine heat, the VT1-535 was close to 160F while the VT2-600 was around 130F. The threshold when you will no longer make power with further increased boost is usually about 220F or ~8PSI boost in most applications.

Heat will affect all FI applications even those that have cooling systems. Many factors will affect AIT's. Factors such as air intake placement, radiant engine heat, IC cooling efficiency and airflow. You can still have high AIT's on a intercooled FI application if you run high enough boost or the cooling efficiency of the intercooler is low. We have tested chip tuned SL65 AMG Mercedes with OEM air/water cooling that run AIT's in the 240's in 90 deg F so simply running a cooling system does not always guarantee you low AIT's. A Stock Bentley Speed W12T we tested recently in 95F returned IAT's in the 180F range.


For every 10 deg F in temp you raise IAT you will loose about 1% in power output as the air is less dense. The immediate advantage of a supercharger kit running a cooling system is that it will make more power. The amount of power will be determined by the efficiency of the cooling system. For example
the 7% increase in power between the VT1-535 and VT2-575 is provided by the 1 psi increase in boost pressure and the lower air intake temperature provided by the air / water cooling system. The difference between the VT2-575 and VT2-600 is 4% due to the fact that they are using the same cooling and are only seperated by the addition of 1 psi of boost pressure.

It is very common for many factory and aftermarket supercharger systems to run without cooling, especially low boost applications. The VT1-535 is very conservative in both boost and tune paramters, and it is fully tested for heavy track duty.
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      05-14-2010, 08:58 PM   #11
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Say what you wanna say but this is a perfic reason why I chose ESS !!!!
Knowledgable person like Roman giving you proven facts !!
I have had my kit ( VT2600) for about 4 months and put 7k pleasurable miles on it and it's consistant on power and smooth as butter !!!
It's one thing having a powerfull car but having a powerfull car that you can beat the shit out of safley is another !!
Kudo's To Roman and AJ or should I say AJ and Roman
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      05-14-2010, 09:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
The last time we measured AIT's here in Phoenix we did so with a stock car, the VT1-535 and the VT2-600. Ambient temp during dyno testing was 90F. The stock motor had an AIT around 110F due to radiant engine heat, the VT1-535 was close to 160F while the VT2-600 was around 130F. The threshold when you will no longer make power with further increased boost is usually about 220F or ~8PSI boost in most applications.

Heat will affect all FI applications even those that have cooling systems. Many factors will affect AIT's. Factors such as air intake placement, radiant engine heat, IC cooling efficiency and airflow. You can still have high AIT's on a intercooled FI application if you run high enough boost or the cooling efficiency of the intercooler is low. We have tested chip tuned SL65 AMG Mercedes with OEM air/water cooling that run AIT's in the 240's in 90 deg F so simply running a cooling system does not always guarantee you low AIT's. A Stock Bentley Speed W12T we tested recently in 95F returned IAT's in the 180F range.


For every 10 deg F in temp you raise IAT you will loose about 1% in power output as the air is less dense. The immediate advantage of a supercharger kit running a cooling system is that it will make more power. The amount of power will be determined by the efficiency of the cooling system. For example
the 7% increase in power between the VT1-535 and VT2-575 is provided by the 1 psi increase in boost pressure and the lower air intake temperature provided by the air / water cooling system. The difference between the VT2-575 and VT2-600 is 4% due to the fact that they are using the same cooling and are only seperated by the addition of 1 psi of boost pressure.

It is very common for many factory and aftermarket supercharger systems to run without cooling, especially low boost applications. The VT1-535 is very conservative in both boost and tune paramters, and it is fully tested for heavy track duty.
Thanks for the great information as always.

Have you monitored the effect of VT1 and VT2 kits on exhaust gas temperatures on the track?
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      05-15-2010, 02:26 AM   #13
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Is it because of price difference between the kits or some other issue such as compliance?

ESS SC is SOOOO tempting and so good from everything I have read but I am still scared to put boost on a high compression engine. Maybe run a VT2 kit with a VT1 pulley lol. Don't even know if that is possible.
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      05-15-2010, 11:21 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duk View Post
Is it because of price difference between the kits or some other issue such as compliance?

ESS SC is SOOOO tempting and so good from everything I have read but I am still scared to put boost on a high compression engine. Maybe run a VT2 kit with a VT1 pulley lol. Don't even know if that is possible.
They put 40k miles with the 700hp version kit on the track which included drifting , trust me your fine !! go for it .....
and did i mention that the stock clutch held up just fine also
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