BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
Strasse Wheels
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-13-2010, 06:14 AM   #23
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
Czech_Republic
124
Rep
3,453
Posts

 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

iTrader: (0)

The M3 Competition is slightly faster than the M3 Normal.
N-Ring:
M3 Normal: 8:05 min
M3 Competition: 8:00 min
I can not wait for the M3 Clubsport.
M3 Clubsport: 7:50 min ?
Appreciate 0
      05-13-2010, 08:21 AM   #24
pride355
Second Lieutenant
pride355's Avatar
2
Rep
229
Posts

 
Drives: MY11 E92 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: İstanbul

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
The M3 Competition is slightly faster than the M3 Normal.
N-Ring:
M3 Normal: 8:05 min
M3 Competition: 8:00 min
I can not wait for the M3 Clubsport.
M3 Clubsport: 7:50 min ?
M3 Clubsport?
Who said there will be a clubsport, maybe like CSL?
Appreciate 0
      05-13-2010, 08:30 AM   #25
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
Czech_Republic
124
Rep
3,453
Posts

 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pride355 View Post
M3 Clubsport?
Who said there will be a clubsport, maybe like CSL?
The M3 GTS is already a clubsport car. But M3 Clubsport it means clubsport package, M3 with some M3 GTS parts, exahust, brakes. Of course it will never be as fast as the M3 GTS due to its much lighter weight. If the M3 Clubsport package comes, it could be either in spring 2011 or spring 2012. I would say spring 2012. And then in summer 2012 would come the M1 GTS/CSL.
Appreciate 0
      05-13-2010, 10:47 AM   #26
M3 Montreal
Colonel
30
Rep
2,188
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 M3 SG ,DCT & 2011 S4
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Montreal , Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
He didn't say it's measurably faster because of a "suspension tune" - read the interview again.

It's "measurably faster" [most likely around a track] because of a few elements such as a lower center of gravity [10mm lowering] and more rubber to the pavement [10 x 19"s], the suspension also has helps with a faster lap time, in any case there are three elements that make it the Competition Package not just a "tune"

As someone who enjoys tracking I can tell you he is correct but it is also total marketing...

You will definitely get much better track times just from the Brembos alone. The stock brakes on the M3 will fade so fast in the hands of a professional driver.

I would say the reason for the better lap times are mainly due to the brakes especially since the added MDM upgrade is usually something turned off by skilled drivers at the track. The lap times they do are always with skilled drivers.

Total marketing and anyone that gets to a certain level of driving skill will automatically improve track times just by installing a BBK kit.

In my opinion its not worth the extra cash.

How much is it more over the regular M3?
__________________
2012 E92-M3 Space Grey on Fox Red, DCT

2011 B8 S4 S-Tronic , Black on magma red
Appreciate 0
      05-13-2010, 11:41 AM   #27
Wah
Red Hot Riplet
Wah's Avatar
United_States
32
Rep
1,773
Posts

 
Drives: '15 F82 M4
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NJ

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Montreal View Post
As someone who enjoys tracking I can tell you he is correct but it is also total marketing...

You will definitely get much better track times just from the Brembos alone. The stock brakes on the M3 will fade so fast in the hands of a professional driver.

I would say the reason for the better lap times are mainly due to the brakes especially since the added MDM upgrade is usually something turned off by skilled drivers at the track. The lap times they do are always with skilled drivers.

Total marketing and anyone that gets to a certain level of driving skill will automatically improve track times just by installing a BBK kit.

In my opinion its not worth the extra cash.

How much is it more over the regular M3?
About $500 more if you are already planning on getting ZTP and the other 19's. Not much...
Appreciate 0
      05-13-2010, 11:43 AM   #28
M3 Montreal
Colonel
30
Rep
2,188
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 M3 SG ,DCT & 2011 S4
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Montreal , Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wah View Post
About $500 more if you are already planning on getting ZTP and the other 19's. Not much...
LOL dont know all these codes ... $500 more for Brembos sounds ridiculously low. Im assuming ZTP is the brembo package? How much more is the brembo package.
__________________
2012 E92-M3 Space Grey on Fox Red, DCT

2011 B8 S4 S-Tronic , Black on magma red
Appreciate 0
      05-13-2010, 12:00 PM   #29
Wah
Red Hot Riplet
Wah's Avatar
United_States
32
Rep
1,773
Posts

 
Drives: '15 F82 M4
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NJ

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Montreal View Post
LOL dont know all these codes ... $500 more for Brembos sounds ridiculously low. Im assuming ZTP is the brembo package? How much more is the brembo package.
No brembos in any package. Its 500 more for the zcp if you are already getting ztp (technology) and the forged 19s. Basically $500 more for a 10mm drop and csl-style cast rims.
Appreciate 0
      05-13-2010, 12:02 PM   #30
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
Czech_Republic
124
Rep
3,453
Posts

 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

iTrader: (0)

There is no Brembo package nor Brembo with Competition package!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Appreciate 0
      05-13-2010, 01:28 PM   #31
e46e92love
Brigadier General
e46e92love's Avatar
United_States
37
Rep
3,059
Posts

 
Drives: e92 ///M3; X3 (wife's)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The East Side of Things

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to e46e92love
Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
There is no Brembo package nor Brembo with Competition package!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know shocking, I mean why don't they include a 5k upgrade for only 1k? I mean come on, how dare they try to make money....

Oh, you meant the brembos they slap on all other OEM cars like the 135i which constantly prove to be no better than other stock systems and are just a name to slap on the brakes to make people feel like they got better breaks? Speaking of marketing BS....

Cheers,
e46e92
__________________

"...it's not about the money and not about the brand of the car, it's about handling,performance and passion......And that, no other car has all together like an M3........when you talk about the most complete car the M is invincible." --Tony Kanaan.
Appreciate 0
      05-13-2010, 02:04 PM   #32
whaleboy
Private
3
Rep
54
Posts

 
Drives: '05 m3 coupe ZCP
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: LA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobsM3Coupe View Post
You do know that the ZCP 19" wheels are not forged. So they will weigh a bit more and will not be as strong as the non ZCP 19" optional wheels.
Not sure that is true on the weight, I know the e46 ZCP wheels were lighter than the stock 19"s.

-David
Appreciate 0
      05-13-2010, 02:12 PM   #33
M3EST
Rear wheel drive fanatic
M3EST's Avatar
No_Country
24
Rep
602
Posts

 
Drives: M3 E30-1M-M4
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Greece & Germany

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
1987 BMW M3  [0.00]
2011 BMW 1M  [5.00]
Phillip was our instructor in BMW Winter Training in Sweden .We were drifting on ice with spikes on tyres .Very good person with great knowledge on M cars.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      05-13-2010, 02:32 PM   #34
elh0102
Captain
7
Rep
704
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emil View Post
When I went around the Nürburgring Nordschleife in the BMW Ring-Taxi, Philipp Wänniger was our driver. He is a very nice guy and his driving skills are simply outstanding!
It is good to know that the suspension of our car is developed and tested by such competent people.
I cannot say if the ZCP version really is faster, but if anyone could proof this, it should be Philip Wänninger in the first place.
If you're responsible for a multi-million dollar R&D budget to make something better, then you damn well make it better. And if it's not better, you say it's better, but you strategically offer no real proof. I don't mean to be unduly harsh. In fact, I have ordered a new M3 with ZCP. But like the E46 package, it is of very nominal value, and certainly has little in common with a true club sport package. But, it does no harm, and it is a small incremental improvement.

While I'm on the soap box, I'll mention the brakes, regarding which some folks have been quick to complain. Usually, such complaints lack any relevant experience to substantiate any complaint at all. We seem to have an almost pathological desire for fixed, multi-piston calipers. For most casual, DE-type track use, the OE brakes are fine, assuming proper pads and fluid. And for almost all the remaining instances where brake performance is lacking, it can be greatly alleviated with better cooling. With that said, it is very true that this is a heavy car that generates some speed. On certain tracks, and/or with certain driving styles, that can be very demanding of brakes. If sticky tires and a handling-enhancing suspension are thrown in, then more is demanded of the brakes. But from my observations, the significant majority of BBK conversions are by owners who wash and take pictures of the brakes much more than they use them. And that is perfectly fine. We all spend money on hobbies in the manner we choose. But the rationalization often offered is unfounded and unfair to the original equipment, and gives others misleading information.
Appreciate 0
      05-13-2010, 04:39 PM   #35
e46e92love
Brigadier General
e46e92love's Avatar
United_States
37
Rep
3,059
Posts

 
Drives: e92 ///M3; X3 (wife's)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The East Side of Things

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to e46e92love
Quote:
Originally Posted by elh0102 View Post

While I'm on the soap box, I'll mention the brakes, regarding which some folks have been quick to complain. Usually, such complaints lack any relevant experience to substantiate any complaint at all. We seem to have an almost pathological desire for fixed, multi-piston calipers. For most casual, DE-type track use, the OE brakes are fine, assuming proper pads and fluid. And for almost all the remaining instances where brake performance is lacking, it can be greatly alleviated with better cooling. With that said, it is very true that this is a heavy car that generates some speed. On certain tracks, and/or with certain driving styles, that can be very demanding of brakes. If sticky tires and a handling-enhancing suspension are thrown in, then more is demanded of the brakes. But from my observations, the significant majority of BBK conversions are by owners who wash and take pictures of the brakes much more than they use them. And that is perfectly fine. We all spend money on hobbies in the manner we choose. But the rationalization often offered is unfounded and unfair to the original equipment, and gives others misleading information.
+10000.....amen. Someone get this guy a beer.....
__________________

"...it's not about the money and not about the brand of the car, it's about handling,performance and passion......And that, no other car has all together like an M3........when you talk about the most complete car the M is invincible." --Tony Kanaan.
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2010, 06:16 AM   #36
Eau Rouge
Captain
Eau Rouge's Avatar
United_States
14
Rep
991
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 E92 M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Florida's Emerald Coast

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2012 BMW E92 M3  [4.50]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Maybe I have just been OTL but as far as I am aware this:

"In the BMW M3 Competition Package damping in the Sport mode is now regulated too - in the serial production model it is based on a fixed level"

is completely new information. It makes the EDC changes a bit more significant than I had previously thought.
+1


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted335 View Post
I would like to know more about this regulation..
Agreed. Disclosure of specific range for each mode would be welcome.


Quote:
Originally Posted by whaleboy View Post
Not sure that is true on the weight, I know the e46 ZCP wheels were lighter than the stock 19"s.

-David
Has anyone weighed the 359Y ZCP wheels? The weights of both F/R would be nice to know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by elh0102 View Post
If you're responsible for a multi-million dollar R&D budget to make something better, then you damn well make it better. And if it's not better, you say it's better, but you strategically offer no real proof. I don't mean to be unduly harsh. In fact, I have ordered a new M3 with ZCP. But like the E46 package, it is of very nominal value, and certainly has little in common with a true club sport package. But, it does no harm, and it is a small incremental improvement.

While I'm on the soap box, I'll mention the brakes, regarding which some folks have been quick to complain. Usually, such complaints lack any relevant experience to substantiate any complaint at all. We seem to have an almost pathological desire for fixed, multi-piston calipers. For most casual, DE-type track use, the OE brakes are fine, assuming proper pads and fluid. And for almost all the remaining instances where brake performance is lacking, it can be greatly alleviated with better cooling. With that said, it is very true that this is a heavy car that generates some speed. On certain tracks, and/or with certain driving styles, that can be very demanding of brakes. If sticky tires and a handling-enhancing suspension are thrown in, then more is demanded of the brakes. But from my observations, the significant majority of BBK conversions are by owners who wash and take pictures of the brakes much more than they use them. And that is perfectly fine. We all spend money on hobbies in the manner we choose. But the rationalization often offered is unfounded and unfair to the original equipment, and gives others misleading information.
I can only imagine the embarrassment that will follow if the ZCP isn't measurably faster when laptimes are logged.

To those that say this is bogus marketing...It isn't bogus marketing if the product delivers better performance as advertised by the manufacturer.

On brakes...Well said. There are a lot of people that like "the look" more than anything else. To each his own, but you are quite right IMO to note the unwarranted criticism of the OEM hardware when the critic will not even bring him/herself to push the OEM hardware to the point of actually creating a need for "better" hardware.
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2010, 08:26 AM   #37
elh0102
Captain
7
Rep
704
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eau Rouge View Post
I can only imagine the embarrassment that will follow if the ZCP isn't measurably faster when laptimes are logged.

To those that say this is bogus marketing...It isn't bogus marketing if the product delivers better performance as advertised by the manufacturer.
I guess I ought to more strongly defend the thing, since I'm buying it, but its impact will be very minimal. The change in EDC management is kind of a non-event, since almost all experienced drivers will have it off when on track. One thing that could help, but I've heard nothing of it, is spring rates. I assume they are a bit shorter, for the slight lowering, but don't know about the rates. Given the very small amount of travel built in that front suspension, I hope they bumped the spring rate a little. If not, it's going to be on the stops very quickly. The slightly lower center of gravity is obviously a positive handling change, except for removing that much suspension travel, which is already marginal in my opinion. Yes, all other variables exactly equal, the package should be "measurably faster". Of course, one can measure to a very fine degree, and all other variables are rarely equal. Overall, the changes are good, but folks should have reasonable expectations of the result.
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2010, 08:48 AM   #38
M3 Montreal
Colonel
30
Rep
2,188
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 M3 SG ,DCT & 2011 S4
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Montreal , Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elh0102 View Post
While I'm on the soap box, I'll mention the brakes, regarding which some folks have been quick to complain. Usually, such complaints lack any relevant experience to substantiate any complaint at all. We seem to have an almost pathological desire for fixed, multi-piston calipers. For most casual, DE-type track use, the OE brakes are fine, assuming proper pads and fluid. And for almost all the remaining instances where brake performance is lacking, it can be greatly alleviated with better cooling. With that said, it is very true that this is a heavy car that generates some speed. On certain tracks, and/or with certain driving styles, that can be very demanding of brakes. If sticky tires and a handling-enhancing suspension are thrown in, then more is demanded of the brakes. But from my observations, the significant majority of BBK conversions are by owners who wash and take pictures of the brakes much more than they use them. And that is perfectly fine. We all spend money on hobbies in the manner we choose. But the rationalization often offered is unfounded and unfair to the original equipment, and gives others misleading information.

I will agree that many people do not push their car enough to warrant BBK's and do it for cosmetics but I will have to disagree as far as the OEM brakes being good enough for the track for everyone.

Maybe for a less experienced driver not pushing the car they are sufficient but the better you get and if you like to late brake (used to that from doing motorcycle racing) then the OEM brakes can not live up to that.

I remember people criticizing Kingleh for saying the same about our brakes on an old thread and saying he doesnt know how to drive only to find out later he is a professional driver. (check his videos on youtube under "Leh Keen" awesome!)

Don't assume OEM is good for everyones skills but I do agree that most dont need the BBK's.
__________________
2012 E92-M3 Space Grey on Fox Red, DCT

2011 B8 S4 S-Tronic , Black on magma red
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2010, 12:19 PM   #39
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
Czech_Republic
124
Rep
3,453
Posts

 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

iTrader: (0)

It would be nice if a professional and official racer could at the same time (weather, temperature, wind) track on the N-Ring
M3 E92 7DCT
M3 E92 ZCP 7DCT
M3 E92 GTS 7DCT
M3 E92 GT4 7DCT
all in stock form with stock tires and 19" rims (except GT4 with 18"). Then we could really see the differences between standard M3, ZCP, GTS and GT4.


Does any objective and good driver want to try?

Last edited by Levi; 05-15-2010 at 11:34 AM.
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2010, 12:49 PM   #40
V1.47fan
Powered by Bacon
V1.47fan's Avatar
United_States
45
Rep
1,453
Posts

 
Drives: Bay M Vee
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NATIONWIDE

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor J View Post
Bogus marketing article.
Agreed, when I switched to wider AD08's,obtained -2.2 degrees Front negative camber etc. my car became measurably faster than a stock M3 on PS2's.

Some actual numbers would be nice...
__________________
Appreciate 0
      05-14-2010, 01:08 PM   #41
njw
Private
njw's Avatar
1
Rep
78
Posts

 
Drives: '13 e92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (0)

Agreed with Montreal

I was in the process of looking up old threads to link on Leh's comments but Montreal beat me to it. I remember when it was brand new, Leh took his new m3 to our local track and his first comment was that the brakes were not good enough for the car's pace. ELH0102 has a good point on the cooling issue but, aside from purchasing a new front diffuser with better cooling ducts, most track-biased mods will be forced to go for better brake kits. Leh is obviously an amazing driver, so his opinion should carry some weight. On the other hand, I am nowhere as fast on the same track and I brake much sooner than him, so to me the stock brakes are not as apparently lacking. I guess it all depends on who is driving and how serious you are about track days and lap times. I think the stock ones are sufficient, but to most people Brembo=Bling and that peace of mind can go a long way. Adding to my opinion, a $70k sports car with an upgraded package called "competition" should come with upgraded Brembo or Stoptech brakes.
__________________

Last edited by njw; 05-14-2010 at 01:40 PM.
Appreciate 0
      05-15-2010, 08:46 AM   #42
Eau Rouge
Captain
Eau Rouge's Avatar
United_States
14
Rep
991
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 E92 M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Florida's Emerald Coast

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2012 BMW E92 M3  [4.50]
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Montreal View Post
I will agree that many people do not push their car enough to warrant BBK's and do it for cosmetics but I will have to disagree as far as the OEM brakes being good enough for the track for everyone.

Maybe for a less experienced driver not pushing the car they are sufficient but the better you get and if you like to late brake (used to that from doing motorcycle racing) then the OEM brakes can not live up to that.

I remember people criticizing Kingleh for saying the same about our brakes on an old thread and saying he doesnt know how to drive only to find out later he is a professional driver. (check his videos on youtube under "Leh Keen" awesome!)

Don't assume OEM is good for everyones skills but I do agree that most dont need the BBK's.
You and I are very much in agreement on almost everything you wrote.

Not to put too fine a point on one thing... I don't think anyone is saying, least of all BMW, that the ZCP transforms the M3 into a clubsport, GTS or GT4 track ready variant of the standard M3, and recognizing as much opens the door for a need to upgrade brake lines, cooling, etc., IF or WHEN the ZCP is going to be tracked by either a very good driver or a very bad driver who demands more of the OEM hardware than it can deliver.

I would expect an M3 CS to have brakes that would be track ready for any driver to go to the track without any thought of upgrading the brakes beforehand. However, when Alain Prost, a driver who I think it is fair to say could teach any and all who have ever graced this forum a thing or two about driving, braking in particular, pronounced the OEM brakes as satisfactory after spending time behind the wheel of a stock E92 M3 at Vairano, that carried a lot of weight with me. That doesn't mean that he would have gone racing with the OEM brakes, it simply means that the quality of the OEM brake kit is qualitatively proportionate to the capabilities of the car in stock form when driven correctly at a track.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
It would be nice if a professional and official racer could at the same time (weather, temperature, wind) track on the N-Ring
M3 E92 7DCT
M3 E92 ZCP 7DCT
M3 E92 GTS 7DCT
M3 E92 GT4 7DCT
all in stock form with stock tires and 19" rims (except GT4 with 18"). Then we could really see the differences between standard M3, ZCP, GTS and GT4.


Does any objective and good driver wants to try?
Why not volunteer Phillip? See vid below vv


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emil View Post
When I went around the Nürburgring Nordschleife in the BMW Ring-Taxi, Philipp Wänniger was our driver. He is a very nice guy and his driving skills are simply outstanding!
It is good to know that the suspension of our car is developed and tested by such competent people.
I cannot say if the ZCP version really is faster, but if anyone could proof this, it should be Philip Wänninger in the first place.
If your ride was anything like that of the three in the M5 with him on this ride, you had a great time.



Last edited by Eau Rouge; 05-15-2010 at 11:59 AM.
Appreciate 0
      05-15-2010, 11:42 AM   #43
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
Czech_Republic
124
Rep
3,453
Posts

 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

iTrader: (0)

Awsome...Fun
Appreciate 0
      05-15-2010, 11:45 AM   #44
Santa34
DCP
Santa34's Avatar
United_States
6
Rep
162
Posts

 
Drives: Cayman S
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: El Paso

iTrader: (0)

awesome video....what a driver. 360cs still one of the most awesome sounding cars ever
__________________

Current: 06' CS, FS Exhaust, FS Headers, IPD 82mm Plenum, GT3 TB, RSS Pulley, EVOMS tune, EVOMS V-Flow, TechArt LS, Spacers
Next: M4?
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:25 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST