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      05-17-2010, 11:05 AM   #89
KingOfJericho
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Originally Posted by ianbiz View Post
Decent race, but why did MSC get a penalty for that? People were doing it in China iirc.
The reg clearly states that if the safety car pulls in on the last lap, the running order will remain the same.
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      05-17-2010, 11:12 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by ianbiz View Post
Decent race, but why did MSC get a penalty for that? People were doing it in China iirc.
BEcause in Chinese GP, safety car came back in when there's more than 1 lap remaining. So based on sporting regulation, cars can start overtake starting the "SC line" before the pit lane entrance.

However, in Monaco, the last lap was a safety car lap, and since SC cannot cross the finish line on the last lap, so race control send the car back to the pit. and acording to sporting regulation 40.13.

Quote:
If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.
So to me, that was a clear violation to overtake Alonso.
However, the argument here was, Ross Brawn and Schumacher argued he saw green flag after the SC line, so he believes the track is clear and back to racing condition. So he made the move.

Thus, the mistake was down to the marshals in Monaco and the race control flashing the green light. I'm not sure if that's enough for the FIA Court to reverse the penalty or decision.

On the side note, how come FIA hasn't slap Rubens a fine for throwing his steering wheel on the live track. Chadhok ran over it and stuck under his car. This can be a dangerous move, there shouldn't be any other debries besides what the accident caused.
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      05-17-2010, 01:33 PM   #91
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I agree with the rules. Schumacher probably didn't know as he is "new", but green flag means go, these guys are hard-wired to do that. it's like saying, oh, the lights went off at the start line, but the race hasn't really started yet, why are you flooring it?
so they should let him go on the penalty. if anything, let him be behind alonso and finish 7, but don't strip him of all his points.

I CAN NOT believe barrichello has got away with it so far... it is dangerous and incredibly childish, especially coming from such an experienced driver. De la Rosa has had a horrible season and he don't pull that sh!t.
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      05-17-2010, 02:53 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by raisemyrent View Post
I agree with the rules. Schumacher probably didn't know as he is "new", but green flag means go, these guys are hard-wired to do that. it's like saying, oh, the lights went off at the start line, but the race hasn't really started yet, why are you flooring it?
so they should let him go on the penalty. if anything, let him be behind alonso and finish 7, but don't strip him of all his points.

I CAN NOT believe barrichello has got away with it so far... it is dangerous and incredibly childish, especially coming from such an experienced driver. De la Rosa has had a horrible season and he don't pull that sh!t.
We'll see how the appeal goes later...I would doubt FIA will reverse its decision.

As for Rubens, Vettel had a even worse season! And he kept his cool and race on....car failure took two of his potential win in Bahrain and Australia...and he didn't express his fustration on car parts...

Rubens, don't tell me a 20 year old kid is more mature than you....
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      05-17-2010, 03:03 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
We'll see how the appeal goes later...I would doubt FIA will reverse its decision.

As for Rubens, Vettel had a even worse season! And he kept his cool and race on....car failure took two of his potential win in Bahrain and Australia...and he didn't express his fustration on car parts...

Rubens, don't tell me a 20 year old kid is more mature than you....
This.
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      05-17-2010, 03:28 PM   #94
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I'm starting to like Chadhok...funny bloke about the steering wheel...

Quote:
"It got lodged underneath the car, so I could feel it scraping all the way through Mirabeau. Then the noise stopped and one of the marshals reported back that it fell out of my car in the tunnel. But then Bruno ran over it so that steering wheel has been well and truly Hispania'd!"


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83688
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      05-17-2010, 07:26 PM   #95
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  • Will Buxton is excellent
  • Rubens should be given a hefty fine for throwing his steering wheel. DANGEROUS pouting!
  • It's hard for me to agree or disagree with MSCs penalty
  • LOL @ Chandhok
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      05-17-2010, 08:06 PM   #96
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If I see green flags on the racing circuit, I expect that passing is ok. If the flags were still yellow, then this penalty is valid. But, being that the course workers had green flags flying the drivers were allowed to race. If the rule states that there is no passing once the SC has pulled, then the flags need to still be shown as yellow.

I say the blame needs to be firmly placed @ race control. They should have let ALL of the corner workers know that yellow flags were to be displayed at all corners. A racer shouldn't be punished for racing!!! The FIA penalized MSC for RACING.... fucking LAME!!!! that entire race was nothing more than a parade, we get a pass at the end and it's illegal...F1, you're treading on dangerous ground.
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      05-17-2010, 09:12 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by xbook View Post
If I see green flags on the racing circuit, I expect that passing is ok. If the flags were still yellow, then this penalty is valid. But, being that the course workers had green flags flying the drivers were allowed to race. If the rule states that there is no passing once the SC has pulled, then the flags need to still be shown as yellow.

I say the blame needs to be firmly placed @ race control. They should have let ALL of the corner workers know that yellow flags were to be displayed at all corners. A racer shouldn't be punished for racing!!! The FIA penalized MSC for RACING.... fucking LAME!!!! that entire race was nothing more than a parade, we get a pass at the end and it's illegal...F1, you're treading on dangerous ground.
I agree, there isn't much passing besides Alonso's charge on the slow cars...
However, rules are clearly written, the most you can blame are race control for not being consistent and correctly relay information to the teams and drivers.

Its like the race control and marshals deliberately send a wrong message and ambush schumi....

I can't either agree or disagree steward's decision, due to the marshal's action made this rule a grey area this time.
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      05-18-2010, 04:53 AM   #98
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Seeing Webber dominate the GP in person was awesome. Here are my amateurish pictures of the GP. I am still getting used to the camera so some of the shots are out of focus, but more importantly I am happy knowing my first GP was a great one.

http://s283.photobucket.com/albums/k...20Monaco%20GP/
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      05-18-2010, 11:36 AM   #99
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Mercedes GP decided not to appeal the decision from the stewards.

http://planetf1.com/news/3213/616119...macher-Penalty

Quote:
Mercedes GP have decided not to appeal Michael Schumacher's 20-second penalty for an illegal overtaking move in Monaco.

The seven-time World Champion was slapped with the penalty for passing Fernando Alonso in the final moments of the Monaco GP after a Safety Car had been deployed for the final three laps of the race following Jarno Trulli collided with Karun Chandhok.

The Safety Car was called in for the final lap, leaving only moments between the Safety Car line and the chequered line. Schumacher saw an opportunity to pass the fifth-placed Alonso and took it, but was later penalised under article 40.13 which states "if the race ends whilst the Safety Car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking".

While Schumacher and his Mercedes team maintain that other sections of the FIA's rules suggest the move would have been legal the team have decided not to appeal the decision.

"On the final lap of the 2010 Monaco Grand Prix, Mercedes GP Petronas instructed our drivers, Michael Schumacher and Nico Rosberg, to race from Safety Car line one until the finish line as permitted under articles 40.7 and 40.11," the team said in a statement.

"Mercedes GP Petronas were fully aware of article 40.13 which states that no overtaking is permitted if the race finishes under Safety Car conditions.

"However we believed that the combination of the race control messages 'Safety Car in this lap' and 'Track Clear' and the green flags and lights shown by the marshals after safety car line one indicated that the race was not finishing under the safety car and all drivers were free to race.

"This opinion appears to have been shared by the majority of the teams with cars in the top ten positions who also gave their drivers instructions to race to the finish line.

"It was clear from our discussions with the stewards after the race that they understood the reasons for our interpretation and acknowledged that this was a new and previously untested situation but ultimately disagreed with our interpretation."

The team went on to say that despite the difference of opinions they fully supported the stewards decision, and the presence of a former driver on the panel. The final point being pertinent considering the criticism leveled at Damon Hill who was the former driver on the stewards panel in Monaco.

"Mercedes GP Petronas would like to emphasise that we fully support the inclusion of past drivers on the stewards panel and are completely satisfied that the Monaco Grand Prix stewards acted professionally, impartially and properly in this matter."

The team added that they had agreed with the FIA that the rule ambiguity be discussed at the next Sporting Working Group.

"The FIA has agreed to include article 40.13 on the agenda of the next Sporting Working Group for discussion and to consider the scale of post race penalties. We believe that the 20 second penalty imposed on Michael to be disproportionate in the circumstances.

"Whilst we cannot be happy with the outcome, we are pleased that the FIA has recognised the reasons for our interpretation. Therefore in the best interests of the sport, Mercedes GP Petronas will not be submitting an appeal," the statement concluded.
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      05-18-2010, 03:26 PM   #100
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shame. why can't he stay 7th and we're all happy?
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      05-18-2010, 04:06 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raisemyrent View Post
I agree with the rules. Schumacher probably didn't know as he is "new", but green flag means go, these guys are hard-wired to do that. it's like saying, oh, the lights went off at the start line, but the race hasn't really started yet, why are you flooring it?
so they should let him go on the penalty. if anything, let him be behind alonso and finish 7, but don't strip him of all his points.

I CAN NOT believe barrichello has got away with it so far... it is dangerous and incredibly childish, especially coming from such an experienced driver. De la Rosa has had a horrible season and he don't pull that sh!t.
I don't think 100% of the blame falls on MSC. He saw green and he passed. Who should be (partially/mostly) blamed is his MB team. Racing is still a team sport even though the driver gets all of the credit/blame. His team should have been on the radio explaining what was happening and letting him know what to do.

Rubens should be penalized for throwing his steering wheel where another car could run it over. No penalty though if he would have thrown it in the stands where someone could have kept it as a nice souvenir.
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      05-18-2010, 04:29 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by nordique14 View Post
I don't think 100% of the blame falls on MSC. He saw green and he passed. Who should be (partially/mostly) blamed is his MB team. Racing is still a team sport even though the driver gets all of the credit/blame. His team should have been on the radio explaining what was happening and letting him know what to do.

Rubens should be penalized for throwing his steering wheel where another car could run it over. No penalty though if he would have thrown it in the stands where someone could have kept it as a nice souvenir.
that'll be a 20,000 GBP souvenir!!!
Much better than Webber's CF helmet he gave away in Spain!!!
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      05-18-2010, 04:59 PM   #103
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Very lame... The 20 sec penalty meant dropping him 6 places since the field was bunched up behind the safety car... That is not even the spirit of the 20 sec penalty.. The spirit of the 20 sec penalty is to be the same as a drive through if it's too late in the race to access a drive though... A drive through in any normal race should would set a driver back a couple of grid spots, not 6 !!! This is very lame... The penalty should be 1 grid spot, putting him back to 7th since there were green flags...

As for Rubens, if Karun or Bruno had crashed because of his steering wheel, he would have been excluded from the championship... Just because no one got hurt does not mean he should escape with no penalty... he should at least get a 10 grid penalty for the next race and $100K fine and that is being leniant for the dangerous situation he caused with his childish actions...

Really at the end, DAMON HILL IS A FUCKIN IDIOT and has no business being in the stewards room...
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      05-18-2010, 05:56 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
Very lame... The 20 sec penalty meant dropping him 6 places since the field was bunched up behind the safety car... That is not even the spirit of the 20 sec penalty.. The spirit of the 20 sec penalty is to be the same as a drive through if it's too late in the race to access a drive though... A drive through in any normal race should would set a driver back a couple of grid spots, not 6 !!! This is very lame... The penalty should be 1 grid spot, putting him back to 7th since there were green flags...

As for Rubens, if Karun or Bruno had crashed because of his steering wheel, he would have been excluded from the championship... Just because no one got hurt does not mean he should escape with no penalty... he should at least get a 10 grid penalty for the next race and $100K fine and that is being leniant for the dangerous situation he caused with his childish actions...

Really at the end, DAMON HILL IS A FUCKIN IDIOT and has no business being in the stewards room...
its hard to agree with you when you determined the penalty towards MS is Damon Hill's sole decision. Keep in mind ex-drivers joined the stewards to give their opinion, but I believe its still down to the FIA stewards to make the final decision.

I believe the penalty will still be given with or without Damon Hill or ANY driver.

Read the statement issued by the FIA, its not just signed by Damon Hill! The racing stewards consists of at least 3 other FIA personnel to decide a penalty. and this time Damon took the blame for everyone else, including the mistakes from race control and Monaco marshalls....
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      05-18-2010, 06:11 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
Very lame... The 20 sec penalty meant dropping him 6 places since the field was bunched up behind the safety car... That is not even the spirit of the 20 sec penalty.. The spirit of the 20 sec penalty is to be the same as a drive through if it's too late in the race to access a drive though... A drive through in any normal race should would set a driver back a couple of grid spots, not 6 !!! This is very lame... The penalty should be 1 grid spot, putting him back to 7th since there were green flags...

Really at the end, DAMON HILL IS A FUCKIN IDIOT and has no business being in the stewards room...
That's where you're wrong. If the penalty was to lose a couple positions race control would tell a driver to let two or more drivers through. The drivers are racing against a clock. So a the time/drive through just adds 20 seconds to the clock. Perfect example would be Mark Webber in Germany '09. He had a drive through but never lost a position. The penalty adds 20 seconds, because that's how much time you lose slowing down, driving through pit lane, and accelerating again. The time penalty is only tacked on if they decide after a race is over that a driver did something illegal.

While I don't agree with the Schumacher penalty 100% because of the green flag waving, he is known to break rules on a regular basis. He knew there was no passing before the finish line but tried to take advantage since the marshalls were waving green. Knowing the rules and breaking them purposely because others make a mistake is still wrong. Did anybody else in the entire field attempt a pass? No. Why am I not surprised Mercedes withdrew their appeal?

But I will say solely on the basis that the marshalls did make a mistake, they should just revert and classify everybody where they were at the start of lap 78.

And Damon Hill did not win WDC, get cheated out of a WDC (by none other than...you guessed it: Schumacher), and become president of the BRDC by being an idiot. He served on a steward board, meaning he's not the only one there. You should stop with the personal attacks and try to be more mature.
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      05-18-2010, 06:52 PM   #106
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if they're so adamant about not passing on a final lap under SC, then it's absurd to change track status to green.
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      05-18-2010, 07:01 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontegoblueE92 View Post
That's where you're wrong. If the penalty was to lose a couple positions race control would tell a driver to let two or more drivers through. The drivers are racing against a clock. So a the time/drive through just adds 20 seconds to the clock. Perfect example would be Mark Webber in Germany '09. He had a drive through but never lost a position. The penalty adds 20 seconds, because that's how much time you lose slowing down, driving through pit lane, and accelerating again. The time penalty is only tacked on if they decide after a race is over that a driver did something illegal.

While I don't agree with the Schumacher penalty 100% because of the green flag waving, he is known to break rules on a regular basis. He knew there was no passing before the finish line but tried to take advantage since the marshalls were waving green. Knowing the rules and breaking them purposely because others make a mistake is still wrong. Did anybody else in the entire field attempt a pass? No. Why am I not surprised Mercedes withdrew their appeal?

But I will say solely on the basis that the marshalls did make a mistake, they should just revert and classify everybody where they were at the start of lap 78.

And Damon Hill did not win WDC, get cheated out of a WDC (by none other than...you guessed it: Schumacher), and become president of the BRDC by being an idiot. He served on a steward board, meaning he's not the only one there. You should stop with the personal attacks and try to be more mature.

You missed my point, my point is that the 20 sec penalty is usually asessed in lieu of a drive through if the race is over like in this case...
but a drive through under normal circumstances only costs a driver a couple of grid spots... in this case because the field was bunched up behond the SC, MS ended up losing 6 grid spots... The crime does not justify the punishment, the 20 sec ended up costing him way too much and is not called for since it wasn;t entirely his fault .. they waived green flags for heaven's sake ....

As for the personal attacks, Hill was out there waiting for an opportunity to crusify MS, I am not the only one out there who thinks he's a vindictive a-hole judging by the article about all the hate mail he's been getting ...
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      05-18-2010, 07:16 PM   #108
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You missed my point, my point is that the 20 sec penalty is usually asessed in lieu of a drive through if the race is over like in this case...
but a drive through under normal circumstances only costs a driver a couple of grid spots... in this case because the field was bunched up behond the SC, MS ended up losing 6 grid spots... The crime does not justify the punishment, the 20 sec ended up costing him way too much and is not called for since it wasn;t entirely his fault .. they waived green flags for heaven's sake ....

As for the personal attacks, Hill was out there waiting for an opportunity to crusify MS, I am not the only one out there who thinks he's a vindictive a-hole judging by the article about all the hate mail he's been getting ...
Let's rewind back to Belgium 2008, when Lewis Hamilton cut the corner. there was like what...3-4 laps remaining? So back in 2008, rules said he must serve the drive through penalty within 3 laps. that means he could've "not serve" (because race will be ended) or serve on his final lap, given if the decision was given more than 3 laps remaining. Because of this, the stewards given Hamilton a 25 second penalty. Which is about equalivant to a drive-through penalty and cannot reverse the penalty.

It wasn't entirely MS fault, but the fact was he did overtake Alonso when the regulation clearly stated that you cannot. Race Control (different from stewards i presume) and Monaco stewards made a mistake and sent wrong messages to teams and drivers. doesn't mean that rules does not apply.

Hate mails to Damon Hill, why not the rest three stewards? I don't think if the other three stewards all disagrees with Damon's decision, the FIA announcement will still stick with Hill's so called revenge.
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      05-19-2010, 11:37 AM   #109
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Duhh, because the other stewards do not have an agenda to get back at MS....
The other sterwards are not jealous that MS won more WDC than they did and put them to shame.. the other stewards are not jealous that their hair has turned completely gray and they lost their step while a man only a few years younger is back in the car... The other three stewards are not jeaoulous that MS has I dunno 1000 times more money in the bank than they do...

Should I keep going??

As for the Lewis example, was the field bunched up behind a safety car?? No .. You guys still do not get my point
20 or 25 seconds is VERY different if the field is bunched up behind a SC, in which case you lose a lot of grid positions
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      05-19-2010, 11:49 AM   #110
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Quote:
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You missed my point, my point is that the 20 sec penalty is usually asessed in lieu of a drive through if the race is over like in this case...
but a drive through under normal circumstances only costs a driver a couple of grid spots... in this case because the field was bunched up behond the SC, MS ended up losing 6 grid spots... The crime does not justify the punishment, the 20 sec ended up costing him way too much and is not called for since it wasn;t entirely his fault .. they waived green flags for heaven's sake ....

As for the personal attacks, Hill was out there waiting for an opportunity to crusify MS, I am not the only one out there who thinks he's a vindictive a-hole judging by the article about all the hate mail he's been getting ...
No. You missed the point. Read the first paragraph I wrote again. They race the clock. 20 seconds is the time of a drive through. That's the penalty for almost any screw-up. Mercedes GP knew this. They tried to bend a little too far and got the penalty.

Whether or not Hill wanted vengeance, he was on a steward board. He was not doing it alone. People who disagree with the penalty are always going to come up with an excuse as to why the penalty was handed out.

I mean, of course the penalty wasn't given because a known rule bender broke a rule and passed under safety car. No, that couldn't be it. It must be because...because the stewards hate Michael! Give me a break. How old are you again?
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