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      05-14-2010, 12:20 AM   #45
swamp2
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Hmmm, OK if you really want to "chat"

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Originally Posted by alms21 View Post
The front splitter on ANY car is "tacked" on. Do you really think any car comes with an integrated front splitter built into the front nosepiece? --- see Porsche 997GT3
Uhhh...no. The part on the M3 is nicely integrated into the body and the mounting is super clever - spring and retention cables under to to allow flexing and then going back to the original spot. Once more clever piece of engineering. The Vette part looks like it was cut off with a table saw and then mounted perfectly vertical. Not quite sure how you could like that part of Vette's.

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They aren't "mud flaps" they are integrated to stop rock/stone kickups from the massive rear tires.
Whatever, they look EXACTLY like mini-mudflaps.

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Originally Posted by alms21 View Post
WTF is a greenhouse section?
A more technical term, used by folks who actually work at car companies in design and engineering, which refers to the entire section of A/B/C pillars and all of the vehicles glass. Sorry, too much jargon perhaps.

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Originally Posted by alms21 View Post
I find it funny you talk about looks being subjective and nearly all of your "nits" have to do with "looks"
I prefaced my comments to note it is ALL OPINION.

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Originally Posted by alms21 View Post
Comments on e92M3 - since you made comments on the looks, fair game for me to do the same on the M3, yes?
Continue to knock yourself out.
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      05-14-2010, 04:42 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO View Post
Dude, you don't have to justify your decision to me. I already made my choice and a good one at that with the m3. If you want the Vet then get one...who gives a $hit. Why waste your time on an m3 forum? Go to the Chevy forum where i'm sure you will hear that the Vet is the best car ever made.

I have driven several C6 Vets and I even test drove a Z06 when I lived in Charleston. The tranny does suck and it is clunky...my opinion and the opinion of many professional drivers and testers...look it up. Also, I'm glad it has carbon Fiber fenders and a magnesium engine cradle; it also has the poorest excuse for leather I have ever seen, more plastic than the Tupperware isle at Walmart and some parts seem like they were put together with scotch tape.


Again, if most of wanted a Vet, we could easily afford one or two of them.

Why would I lust something that is inferior to what I already have?

Have fun with your Vet! I really hope you enjoy it!

Sz

I'm not justifying anything. I'm stating facts. I find it when fanboi's streeeeeettttccchh to the greatest of lengths to put other competing cars down rather than just accept the fact that there are a ton of great ones out there. This thread was going along nicely until you got butthurt and posted your nonsense.

You haven't driven a post '08 Z06 otherwise you would know that the tranny has been upgraded. You want to talk about a clunky transmission....see SMG in the E46 (both versions) and the DCT is nothing to write home about either (see countless threads on THIS VERY forum as to it's suckiness). Don't try to blow sunshine up my ass about how great the reliability, build quality, etc. of ANY modern day BMW. I've owned plenty of them and have seen first hand they do not carry the panache nor the quality they used to. Having said that I do still think they are the best driver's cars across their entire line of any manufacturer.

Who ever mentioned anything about affording either of these cars? Do you suffer self esteem/inferiority issues on other topics as well?

C6Vette inferior to M3?....that's rich dude.

I'm done trying to have a logical discussion with guys like you (see M3 nutswingers).
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      05-14-2010, 08:15 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by 1love View Post
Enough about performance, what if you are single low 20s no kids and you want a great driving v8 equipped car. You narrow your choices to the e92 and the c6 grand sport. This will be a daily driver and only car.

What would you pick?
41, no kids and looking for a great driving V8 car. The C6 GS was one of my three candidates, up until I drove my best friends C6 Z06: very fast, great looks, good gas mileage, but in the end, I didn't enjoy driving it at all: the car was raw, it had a bone jarring suspension, an awfully cheap interior, car feels BIG, I mean...BIG! from inside, and the handling was very unforgiving. It was no brainer for me: the M3 excels where the Vette fails.
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      05-14-2010, 08:35 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alms21 View Post
I'm not justifying anything. I'm stating facts. I find it when fanboi's streeeeeettttccchh to the greatest of lengths to put other competing cars down rather than just accept the fact that there are a ton of great ones out there. This thread was going along nicely until you got butthurt and posted your nonsense.

You haven't driven a post '08 Z06 otherwise you would know that the tranny has been upgraded. You want to talk about a clunky transmission....see SMG in the E46 (both versions) and the DCT is nothing to write home about either (see countless threads on THIS VERY forum as to it's suckiness). Don't try to blow sunshine up my ass about how great the reliability, build quality, etc. of ANY modern day BMW. I've owned plenty of them and have seen first hand they do not carry the panache nor the quality they used to. Having said that I do still think they are the best driver's cars across their entire line of any manufacturer.

Who ever mentioned anything about affording either of these cars? Do you suffer self esteem/inferiority issues on other topics as well?

C6Vette inferior to M3?....that's rich dude.

I'm done trying to have a logical discussion with guys like you (see M3 nutswingers).
C6 is inferior to an E9X M3 in several aspects. It's mostly a tupperware car with a good engine and mediocre suspension and I drove a 2009 Z06 so yes, the manual transmission could use refining. The DCT did have a few software issues in the 2008 model M3 but in my 2009, there are no problems; it is an incredibly fast shifting and smooth transmission so I am not sure what you are talking about.

You asked for my opinion on the Vet and I gave you mine; if you don't like it, then I recommend you go to the Vet forum. If you feel all of my comments about the Vet are somehow false, then you are fooling yourself and only you will find out how shitty (but fast) a Vet really is when you buy it.

Personally, if I were to buy a purpose built car, one that only has two seats, rides like shit and is only really good for a track and not a DD, then there are several other cars I would choose (i.e., GT3).

Obviously the Vet has good qualities and bad ones; all cars do. To me, the Vet has more negative ones than good ones although none have to do with performance (it is a very fast car).

The only reason I brought up the price thing was to point out that considering the Vet is a great bargain, many of us chose to go with something else, and that alone should tell you something.

Yes, the Vet looks mean as hell in that picture. However, it has no class or prestige. Personally, if I pulled up to a clients office in a Vet like that, I would be embarrassed. With an M3, you can track it one day and drive to a board meeting the next. It is the versatility of the M3 that makes it so great.

BTW, hope you get your Vet soon and enjoy it. Let us know how your first Vet meet goes ; I think you may need an AARP card to attend J/K

-SZ

Last edited by SUB-ZERO; 05-14-2010 at 08:40 AM.
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      05-14-2010, 10:00 AM   #49
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      05-14-2010, 04:54 PM   #50
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Guys this is not a pissing contest. We are all entitled to our opinions so let's leave it at that.

Serge, you are describing exactly how I felt when I drove the vette 2 years ago. It feels big, but incredibly capable. I love that the car sits low to the ground and stays flat through the turns. But now that I think about it, my complaints with my E46M was that I thought it was a little big

I've now decided to throw in the Z4M into the ring, which I view as a hybrid of the E46M and C6. I can maintain some creature comforts but with a very sports car feel.
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      05-14-2010, 05:07 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1love View Post
Guys this is not a pissing contest. We are all entitled to our opinions so let's leave it at that.

Serge, you are describing exactly how I felt when I drove the vette 2 years ago. It feels big, but incredibly capable. I love that the car sits low to the ground and stays flat through the turns. But now that I think about it, my complaints with my E46M was that I thought it was a little big

I've now decided to throw in the Z4M into the ring, which I view as a hybrid of the E46M and C6. I can maintain some creature comforts but with a very sports car feel.
Nice choice! One of the members on this forum (DarkStar..aka John) has a Z4M and he frequents our Mid Atlantic runs...all I can say is wow! The Z4M aka M coupe handles like it is on rails. I assume you have a newer and possibly more refined version of his car.

SZ
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      05-14-2010, 06:34 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO View Post
Dude, you don't have to justify your decision to me. I already made my choice and a good one at that with the m3. If you want the Vet then get one...who gives a $hit. Why waste your time on an m3 forum? Go to the Chevy forum where i'm sure you will hear that the Vet is the best car ever made.

I have driven several C6 Vets and I even test drove a Z06 when I lived in Charleston. The tranny does suck and it is clunky...my opinion and the opinion of many professional drivers and testers...look it up. Also, I'm glad it has carbon Fiber fenders and a magnesium engine cradle; it also has the poorest excuse for leather I have ever seen, more plastic than the Tupperware isle at Walmart and some parts seem like they were put together with scotch tape.


Again, if most of wanted a Vet, we could easily afford one or two of them.

Why would I lust something that is inferior to what I already have?

Have fun with your Vet! I really hope you enjoy it!

Sz
The transmission in the z06 is clunky?!?!?!? Id love to know what you think of the e92 M3 6 speed then???

The transmission in the Z06 shifts like butter PERIOD
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      05-14-2010, 08:44 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1love View Post
Guys this is not a pissing contest. We are all entitled to our opinions so let's leave it at that.

Serge, you are describing exactly how I felt when I drove the vette 2 years ago. It feels big, but incredibly capable. I love that the car sits low to the ground and stays flat through the turns. But now that I think about it, my complaints with my E46M was that I thought it was a little big
And this sounds almost exactly like my experience back in 2002 when I test drove the vette before I picked up my E46 M3. The vette to me felt bigger and heavier than the M3 even though the vette is lighter.

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I've now decided to throw in the Z4M into the ring, which I view as a hybrid of the E46M and C6. I can maintain some creature comforts but with a very sports car feel.
Nice car. I almost got a used one but things worked out to where I got the M3 instead.


Cheers.
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      05-14-2010, 08:52 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by alms21 View Post
I'm not justifying anything. I'm stating facts. I find it when fanboi's streeeeeettttccchh to the greatest of lengths to put other competing cars down rather than just accept the fact that there are a ton of great ones out there. This thread was going along nicely until you got butthurt and posted your nonsense.

You haven't driven a post '08 Z06 otherwise you would know that the tranny has been upgraded. You want to talk about a clunky transmission....see SMG in the E46 (both versions) and the DCT is nothing to write home about either (see countless threads on THIS VERY forum as to it's suckiness). Don't try to blow sunshine up my ass about how great the reliability, build quality, etc. of ANY modern day BMW. I've owned plenty of them and have seen first hand they do not carry the panache nor the quality they used to. Having said that I do still think they are the best driver's cars across their entire line of any manufacturer.

Who ever mentioned anything about affording either of these cars? Do you suffer self esteem/inferiority issues on other topics as well?

C6Vette inferior to M3?....that's rich dude.

I'm done trying to have a logical discussion with guys like you (see M3 nutswingers).
I normally don't like to get into these stupid arguments but this is ironic. Your posts just reek of insecurity. Yes, corvettes are nice cars but give a rest man.
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      05-14-2010, 11:39 PM   #55
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I think the exterior shape of the c6 z06 is iconic and is better than gt3, m3, etc in term of aggresiveness, but only in black color because the fitment/lines are very crude. in another word, it doesn't flow smoothly or have refinement like the m3 or gt3 body. I don't like the look of the grandsport, regular c6, and all the old c5.

the only thing i don't like about the vette is the seat and steering wheel which don't look good and feel a bit low rent. You can change the seat to recaro but you loose the side airbag which is a deal breaker. There is no aftermarket steering wheel that maintains the front airbag, so that is an issue if you drive the car on the street. those are the only thing that hold me back from getting a c6 z06.
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      05-16-2010, 02:47 PM   #56
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Here is an excellent article on this topic:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...risons/4333820

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Homepage / Automotive / Road Test / Comparison Tests *
Can the 2010 Corvette Grand Sport Dethrone the BMW M3? Comparison Test Drive
BY LARRY WEBSTER
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This unlikely duel pits what is arguably the world's best sports sedan, the BMW M3, against a dedicated sports caróthe Corvette Grand Sport. But despite having to haul around a rear seat, this BMW is a solid matchup against the Vette. Under those hoods, both cars have V8s with over 400 hp. In each machine, rear-wheel drive puts the power down to the ground. And more to the point, these two overtly sporting machines cost about the same¬ó$55,720 for the Vette, $59,975 for the M3. This pair occupies a performance-car sweet spot, because they offer near supercar speed for far less than exotic-car prices. Since the new Grand Sport has considerably upped the Corvette's game, let's see if it can unseat the Bavarian powerhouse.

The Specs
BMW and Chevrolet followed vastly different V8 design paths. The M3's V8 is a technological marvel, packing variable valve timing for all four camshafts, individual butterfly valves for each cylinder, two oil pumps, and lightweight internals that allow a hair-raising 8400-rpm rev limit. While this engine makes its thrust through rpm--the 414-hp power peak occurs at 8300 rpm--it's still got 295 lb-ft of torque at 3900 rpm. Even better, the 4.0-liter V8 weighs less than the six-cylinder of the last M3. It's an amazing engine packing 103.5 hp per liter of displacement. That level of power density wouldn't be out of place in a race car.

Our M3 was equipped with the optional $2900 electronically controlled seven-speed dual-clutch transmission. By means of a console-mounted button, drivers can dial the shift speed from couch-potato lazy to rifle quick. There are also adjustments for steering effort, throttle sensitivity and even shock-absorber stiffness.

If the M3 is the bleeding-edge tech geek, the Corvette is the old-school bar-room bruiser. Its V8 uses pushrods and two valves per cylinder like the original small-block V8. But an aluminum-block, dry-sump oiling system and sophisticated electronic controls have modernized this powerplant. With over 50 percent more displacement than the M3's engine and similar power--436 hp with the optional exhaust--one might too hastily conclude this V8 is a dinosaur. But the design has advantages: Its tidier outside dimensions allowed the Corvette's low hood; the throttle response is very quick, and with fewer parts, it's a lighter engine. A six-speed automatic is available, but we chose the standard six-speed manual.

On paper, it would appear the Corvette has an edge when it comes to the chassis design. It uses unequal-length control arms, an architecture used by race cars to keep the tires flatter on the pavement as the suspension cycles. The BMW employs Macpherson struts up front, which are less sophisticated in some ways. But then, BMW's been using struts for many years, so perhaps they've found the handling magic in that design.

Since these are both hardcore sports machines, they come standard with technology that takes the risk out of hard driving. In addition to launch control, the stability-control systems have high-performance modes with raised intervention thresholds. These systems work so transparently that there's no reason not to use them on the street.

The Drive
The M3 is nearly 300 pounds heavier than the 3352-pound Corvette and has less horsepower, so naturally it was outgunned at the dragstrip. However the M3 does have a launch control system that automatically provides perfect getaways. It's simple: Engage the system, press the brake and simultaneously floor the throttle. The computer holds engine speed to 5000 rpm and then expertly dumps the clutch. The M3 is the consistency king.

The Vette's launch-control system simply limits rpm. The driver, of course must work the clutch and shifter. But we found the Grand Sport was quicker with the system off. Less than a tenth of a second separates the two cars at the 60-mph mark--the Vette hits it at 4.55 seconds, the BMW at 4.61 seconds. But as speeds rise, the Corvette's lighter weight and better aerodynamics widen the spread. The Grand Sport reaches 150 mph in just 25.64 seconds, nearly three seconds sooner than the BMW.

The Vette's quicker straight-line speed and higher grip--0.99 g's versus 0.92 g's---also translated to a faster racetrack lap. Additionally, the Vette is far more neutral when pushed hard and more willing to engage the rear tires when cornering. The BMW, surprisingly, overworks the front tires and typically pushes at the limit. Understeer is, of course, easier to handle because if you overcook a corner, the front tires simply scrub off the extra speed. The Chevy, on the other hand, requires some skill to eek out its potential. For those that have the ability, the Vette's more neutral racetrack behavior is far more satisfying.

Out in the wild, on a curvy road--where you're not driving flat out at racetrack speeds--the BMW's tendency to push was nowhere in sight. It carves corners brilliantly, knifing into apexes and effortlessly putting the power down at the corner exits. The M3's extra weight seems to disappear as the speeds increase. It feels flickable and light. Down one particularly twisty stretch, we really bonded with this car's sharp, exotic tone of the exhaust and the flawless shifts from the automated manual transmission. But the BMW isn't entirely perfection on wheels. The ride gets choppy over expansion heaves and generally beats its occupants more than the Vette does. Oh and the M3 is thirstier, if only slightly, returning 22.3 mpg versus the Vette's 24.2 mpg--and carries a $1300 gas-guzzler tax.

The Corvette's handling on the street was equally impressive. The stiffer suspension and wider tires of the Grand Sport model transform the base Vette into one very crisp and very planted sports car. The Vette's slinky stance allows the driver to sit lower, closer to the rear axle, which makes the driver feel more engaged in the experience. On the street, you are unlikely to outdrive this chassis. No matter how hard we pushed, we rarely found its limit.

The engine doles out so much torque, so low in the rev range, shifting is often optional. But when you do change gears, the Vette's clutch and shifter operate with a satisfying smoothness. Once the exhaust opens its valve at 3800 rpm, the Vette's understated burble morphs to an authoritative bark--there's something special about the sound of an American V8.

But as good as the Grand Sport may be dynamically, it does suffer from the same problems all Corvettes do. The mood inside is distinctly low-rent, especially compared to the luxurious BMW. The climate control has an '80s-tech grey LCD display, the carpeting has the texture of astro turf, and the seats are simply not up to the task of properly supporting the driver. Our Vette had the optional clear removable roof and it creaked and groaned over sharp bumps. The BMW's vault-like structure seemed to be in another class.

The Bottom Line
This one was almost too close to call. It's outright performance versus polish, practicality versus the singular mission. Both provide--in different ways--the visceral rush that we crave from performance cars. We'd find room for either car in our garage. But the BMW's back seat, beautiful interior and overall refinement means we could, and would, want to drive the M3 far more often. It's our choice.
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      05-16-2010, 03:08 PM   #57
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I love the ZO6....my neighbor has one in blue....looks hot!..sounds amazing!
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      05-16-2010, 07:57 PM   #58
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Quote:
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The transmission in the z06 is clunky?!?!?!? Id love to know what you think of the e92 M3 6 speed then???

The transmission in the Z06 shifts like butter PERIOD
I have a DCT
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      05-20-2010, 01:07 PM   #59
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We are comparing 2 different vehicles here, they are are both great cars depending on your preference.

M3 has great build quality and seats 4, and stellar performance, is easy to drive fast.

The Vettes, in all trims, are outstanding performers, with the higher end models being in the supercar realm, difficult to drive fast but once you master it, it is very rewarding. My only complaint is the seats and door panels, I personally like the dash layout and the HUD, the HUD is very useful in track conditions.
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      05-20-2010, 09:13 PM   #60
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Yup the only reservations i have with the GS is the interior. Im gonna give it a couple more weeks to be sure but i think i've made my decision.
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      05-21-2010, 08:13 AM   #61
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Quote:
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We are comparing 2 different vehicles here, they are are both great cars depending on your preference.

M3 has great build quality and seats 4, and stellar performance, is easy to drive fast.

The Vettes, in all trims, are outstanding performers, with the higher end models being in the supercar realm, difficult to drive fast but once you master it, it is very rewarding. My only complaint is the seats and door panels, I personally like the dash layout and the HUD, the HUD is very useful in track conditions.
Really, I dont think they look to bad.


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      05-22-2010, 11:12 AM   #62
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I'm someone who has been looking for something that is a little more hard-edged and athletic than my 335i (which I love, btw).

I would strongly urge you to also test drive a slightly used C6 Z06, a 2007 model or later. You are going to be absolutely dumbfounded by how General Motors was able to make such a powerful car so civil to drive day in and day out.

I've stayed away from Corvettes my whole life because I frankly feel they're rather tacky but after experiencing a Z06 that has changed.

The differences between an M3 and a Z06 in terms of performance is shocking. Yes, the fit and finish isn't as nice, the interior looks cheap (get a NAV unit, it freshens things up a lot), and it is was really hard for me to get used to just how long the hood was....the car just has different proportions to what we're used to.

But jesus...that car is just so go**amned fast it makes the M3 look like a boulevard cruiser. Absolute zero chance of anything short of a GT-R to keep up with it. And frankly the Z06 is going to be cheaper to own, cheaper to maintain, and will take much more of a beating than our sophisticated German cars ever will.

After driving an e90 M3 and a Z06 back to back I completely and immediately checked the M3 off of my list. What I'm struggling with is if I am willing to give up the luxury and utility of my 335 for a 2 seater like the Corvette. There's also the issue of tires, I recommend checking the prices of replacement tires for the Z06...I think they're something like 335/35/19 in the back. Not cheap.

My advice is to drive as many cars as you can to get a feel.
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      05-22-2010, 07:24 PM   #63
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You make some good points. Long term the vettes should be cheaper to maintain and keep in top shape relative to the german cars. The corvette nav is still a dvd-based system so im not sure i would go with it, but plenty of people have done the aftermarket thing with success. I've been following the corvette ever since the C6 first debuted and i've never come this close to buying one before.

I've thought about the C6 Z06. There are at least 200+ new '09 and '10 Z06s on dealer lots right now so im sure we can get smoking deals on them, but im confident the Z06 is not for me. Above all i want to have the option to take the roof off. I can't deal with a convertible but a removable top is a good compromise that i don't want to give up. Plus i don't want the extra power and cost. The maintenance cost will likely be the same but im ok with that.
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      05-24-2010, 01:54 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO View Post
However, it has no class or prestige.

In your opinion.


To the OP, I DD my Z and love it. I rarely run into anything the street that can even come close to the straight line performance of my car, much less something that can lose me through some turns. I am 27, not 47, so give me the bone jarring ride and road noise. It is completely worth it when I hit my HPDE's and compete for FTD on any given day with street tires.
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Last edited by 1.8t; 05-24-2010 at 02:50 PM.
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      05-24-2010, 05:06 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by 1.8t View Post
In your opinion.


To the OP, I DD my Z and love it. I rarely run into anything the street that can even come close to the straight line performance of my car, much less something that can lose me through some turns. I am 27, not 47, so give me the bone jarring ride and road noise. It is completely worth it when I hit my HPDE's and compete for FTD on any given day with street tires.
Don't waste your time with SZ ---- he just doesn't get it.

I will agree, a Vette of any kind is more DD'able than virtually any dedicated sportscar out there. I did not use either of mine as a DD but the ride was nice enough to do such.
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      05-24-2010, 05:31 PM   #66
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Don't confuse reliability with build quality. I think by build quality the post(s) above were actually more speaking to fit and finish. You have really commented on reliability above.

I also take constant exception to the notion that the only way to know something is to experience it first hand. With regards to reliability this is in fact the worst approach. Reliability by nature is statistical. There will always be lemmons and super reliable cars in a production run. The stats are what the good reports have and those are the only way to really make sound decisions based on facts (statistics). My wife happens to own one of the most unreliable Honda Accords I've ever heard of. Does that make the Accord an unreliable car? Certainly not.

Fit and finish can be judged easily by a magazine or in person with 5 minutes with a car.
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