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      05-30-2013, 10:44 PM   #1
bubu
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NA tune gains? Any Proof?

Has anyone has actually shown an independent dyno sheet showing what their car gained from an NA tune? ESS, BPM, GIAC, DINAN, etc...

Does nobody remember powerchip?!? ...I've been reading all of these wonderful "BPM Tune" reviews and they sound like fake/paid review plants you see on Amazon for a questionable product! Seriously, look at the sentence structure. To me, they seem like they were written by the same guy with questionable grammar!

Are there reliable/independent dyno's some you NA tune guys can share of a before & after? Preferably done on the same day? I drank the GIAC tune cool-aid back when I had my 08, to put it bluntly, the power gains were bullshit and I felt scammed out of $800. I think they screwed with the electronic throttle response more than anything else to make the car seem more jumpy...similar to running with the power button on. I recall that the factory 240E software showed solid #'s that outperformed all the "NA" tunes of the time...until the 240E software "was in turn tuned".

Someone do a before & after dyno and debunk or prove the NA tune myth ...strap the car down to an independent dyno, get a baseline run, flash...and see the results. Or post up the results if they are already out there, preferably with a baseline on the latest factory software. Yes, I get that it's nice to remove the cold start but that's not a "tune".

-bubu

Last edited by bubu; 05-30-2013 at 11:30 PM.
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      05-30-2013, 10:56 PM   #2
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There's a bunch of dyno graphs out there if you search. If you believe they're all written by the same dude, then that's a separate issue. Tons of folks with BPM tunes and post counts in the hundreds... Benvo would be one busy poster with no time to actually build the tunes.
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      05-30-2013, 10:58 PM   #3
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Here's one to get you started... search BPM dyno and have at it...
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=801185
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      05-30-2013, 11:02 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubu View Post
Has anyone has actually shown an independent dyno sheet showing what their car gained from an NA tune? ESS, BPM, GIAC, DINAN, etc...

Does nobody remember powerchip?!? ...I've been reading all of these wonderful "BPM Tune" reviews and they sound like fake/paid review plants you see on Amazon for a questionable product! Seriously, look at the sentence structure. To me, they seem like they were written by the same guy with questionable grammar!

Are there reliable/independent dyno's some you NA tune guys can share of a before & after? Preferably done on the same day? I drank the GIAC tune cool-aid back when I had my 08, to put it bluntly, the power gains were bullshit and I felt scammed out of $800. I think they screwed with the electronic throttle response more than anything else to make the car seem more jumpy...similar to running with the power button on. I recall that the factory 240E software showed solid #'s that outperformed all the "NA" tunes of the time...until the 240E software "was in turn tuned".

Someone do a before & after dyno and debunk or prove the NA tune myth ...strap the car down to an independent dyno, get a baseline run, flash...and see the results. Or post up the results if they are already out there. all the "tunes" when it was introduced. Yes, I get that it's nice to remove the cold start but that's not a "tune".

-bubu
My first thought was the same, but I do think these reviews are legitimate. I get what you are saying though - I would actually believe the raves more if I saw a few "meh" reviews. It's hard to believe there is not a single unhappy customer or even a blasť one out there.
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      05-30-2013, 11:07 PM   #5
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Dyno database and several European tuner customers with independent dynos show similar gains.

In some prior controversial posts, remember allegations of US tuners actually using a particular German tuner's files and selling as their own (purportedly the same tune circulating under different 'brands').. have no idea whether any veracity to those claims.
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      05-30-2013, 11:18 PM   #6
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Factory software gain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alee0729 View Post
Here's one to get you started... search BPM dyno and have at it...
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=801185
...That post tells me that the OP likely had old software. It's been raved about on this forum that the 240E factory software seemingly added 10hp-15hp at the wheels. EAS is/was selling the flash and showed dyno #'s to back it up. I want to see a dyno from a '12 or '13 that already had 240E. I get that there were dyno's I just question that the gains were due to the tune vs. using the latest BMW factory software. I understand that the other coding goodies (like enabling euro MDM, DCT software, etc) that done along with the NA "tunes" are awesome. I am just very skeptical that there is power gains over the most recent factory software in these tunes.

Basically, the dyno's I've been able to find don't really prove where the power came from. Tune vs. the what factory software the tune is based on.

-bubu
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      05-30-2013, 11:28 PM   #7
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...not just me

Quote:
Originally Posted by robotk View Post
My first thought was the same, but I do think these reviews are legitimate. I get what you are saying though - I would actually believe the raves more if I saw a few "meh" reviews. It's hard to believe there is not a single unhappy customer or even a blasť one out there.
I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who started to wonder...

as for bad reviews in general, in my experience you really have to piss someone off for them to bash you on a forum. A refund almost always prevents that sort of thing. Then there is the fact that posts bashing paying sponsors/vendors tend to get "moderated" out when they get out of hand...
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      05-30-2013, 11:33 PM   #8
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popcorn...
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      05-31-2013, 01:24 AM   #9
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I am starting to think this is becoming a bash on BPM thread, it's really getting old! If you want proof then you have to trust the reviews on here or just live without a tune. The only issue here is that you are missing out on a great tune from BPM and others are not. I can tell you personally that the BPM tune has gains, noticeable gains and this is not just the throttle response. I have compared with a stock M3 and a "Stage 2" ESS with BPM coming out on top. I don't want to hear about "variables" because no matter what the BPM tune is top notch!!

You should realize that BPM is starting on here with very little to back them. The buyers of this tune realize that so throwing reviews on here is us paying respect to his tune, service and respect he give towards the customers. He truly is a great tuner that takes time to help you out and explain things in detail. This is one of the greatest traits any seller of any product can have. ESS have done so well in the years they no longer need reviews on this "unbiased" forum.

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      05-31-2013, 01:37 AM   #10
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I got a tune from Randy Mueller of EPIC Motorsports and although I have yet to do a dyno run, I can say that the M3's performance has improved tremendously! There is a stretch of road and when I ran the stock M3 I would get 120 kph before braking. After the tune the car ran 150-153 kph on the very same stretch of road. The all to famous butt dyno confirms the improvement.... FYI
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      05-31-2013, 01:39 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotk View Post
My first thought was the same, but I do think these reviews are legitimate. I get what you are saying though - I would actually believe the raves more if I saw a few "meh" reviews. It's hard to believe there is not a single unhappy customer or even a blasť one out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubu View Post
I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who started to wonder...

as for bad reviews in general, in my experience you really have to piss someone off for them to bash you on a forum. A refund almost always prevents that sort of thing. Then there is the fact that posts bashing paying sponsors/vendors tend to get "moderated" out when they get out of hand...
Even if people weren't satisfied with their BPM tune, which I highly doubt. You really think they are going to get on here and bash that kind of money? I don't think so! There is nothing to complain about.
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      05-31-2013, 01:39 AM   #12
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There are multiple before and after dyno posts specific to tunes on these forums, use the search function or just use google. I don't know what else one would need in order to believe the benefits of a tune especially if you have a full catless exhaust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STi_traitor View Post
You should realize that BPM is starting on here with very little to back them, it's a two man army realistically. The buyers of this tune realize that so throwing reviews on here is us paying respect to his tune, service and respect he give towards the customers. He truly is a great tuner that takes time to help you out and explain things in detail. This is one of the greatest traits any seller of any product can have. ESS have done so well in the years they no longer need reviews on this "unbiased" forum.
Well said. I don't have a BPM or any other tune, my car is stock as far as programming goes but i know in the future if i was to ever purchase a tune it would be from Mike. I have lurked these forums for YEARS and only started posting recently, but from the amount of time i have visited these forums, i can see that Mike is a big supporter of the community, he is an avid BMW fan, and knows his technical knowhow.
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      05-31-2013, 01:44 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive View Post
There are multiple before and after dyno posts specific to tunes on these forums, use the search function or just use google. I don't know what else one would need in order to believe the benefits of a tune especially if you have a full catless exhaust.


Well said. I don't have a BPM or any other tune, my car is stock as far as programming goes but i know in the future if i was to ever purchase a tune it would be from Mike. I have lurked these forums for YEARS and only started posting recently, but from the amount of time i have visited these forums, i can see that Mike is a big supporter of the community, he is an avid BMW fan, and knows his technical knowhow.
Yup! If others weren't too busy drooling over other peoples cars in the picture thread then they would notice that Mike and "The Tech" are constantly on here giving advice in ALL areas.
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      05-31-2013, 01:50 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi_traitor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive View Post
There are multiple before and after dyno posts specific to tunes on these forums, use the search function or just use google. I don't know what else one would need in order to believe the benefits of a tune especially if you have a full catless exhaust.


Well said. I don't have a BPM or any other tune, my car is stock as far as programming goes but i know in the future if i was to ever purchase a tune it would be from Mike. I have lurked these forums for YEARS and only started posting recently, but from the amount of time i have visited these forums, i can see that Mike is a big supporter of the community, he is an avid BMW fan, and knows his technical knowhow.
Yup! If others weren't too busy drooling over other peoples cars in the picture thread then they would notice that Mike and "The Tech" are constantly on here giving advice in ALL areas.
+1. I'm a n00b and I've seen it already!
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      05-31-2013, 02:16 AM   #15
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I'm sorry that you feel that the reviews you've read are "fake" and "planted".

Customers write reviews because they want to share their experiences. Behind each of the reviews is an enthusiast that had something to say or a story to tell.

We do not offer ANY incentive whatsoever for customers to write reviews. We appreciate honest feedback and constructive criticism where necessary.

We have never refunded a single customer for a software tune -- not because we wouldn't if there was a problem, but because there hasn't been a situation where it has been asked of us.

Remember that I am a big enthusiast myself stemming back ten years, and have modded and owned multiple BMW's. This is a passion that I enjoy, not just "work". Our service and reputation speaks for itself, and there is a reason why our company slogan is "Emotion - Driven". I purchased my 12/07 build M3 brand new in 2008 the first week they made it to the united states. I love the car and will never sell it.

We are innovators which take development to the next level, and listen to customers carefully to deliver what is asked. We were the first to offer remote race seat coding, M-Drive retrofits, remote DCT flashing, etc.. We are the only company that we know of that is so intertwined with BMW's to offer custom tuning, programming, coding, forensics, retrofits, etc.. We use factory BMW equipment on site, not third party tools and never any cloned/copied devices. Some of the tools we have here would only be found on the factory floor in Munich. We perform programming and expert repair work for multiple BMW dealers and independent shops worldwide, as well as programming for dealership employees, BMW CCA chapter presidents, and even people that work for BMW's factories in both the US and Germany.

We don't condone removal of any negative comments and would rather address the "elephant in the room" directly than have something negative removed. We have nothing to hide, and our customers know that.

Here you'll find a customer review which has some criticism, we do appreciate when warranted: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=816790

Another member posted this dyno http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=801185 which was a vehicle that was originally on 240E and dynoed independently thousands of miles from us at a shop we've never spoken to.

A few posts you can read if you like relating to dynoing and people that have a story to tell:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=826311 <<-- Race car driver Cort Wagner

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=825012

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...5&postcount=60

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=767799

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=705350

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=810589 (A member that joined in 2006.. oh wait.. no it was really me.. lol)

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=748613

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694985

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...06&postcount=4 (a customer that had a previously bad tuning experience also)

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=763362 (dyno results in post 15)

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...1&postcount=54

A dyno of our X5M/X6M software: http://www.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=763955

I've said this a million times but I'll say it again. WOT power is NOT everything. There so SO MANY more aspects to performance software and vehicles in general that are more important. Partial throttle driveablity and response, smoothness, the feeling you get when driving.. just to name a few. It's not all about WOT. While safety and drive-ability are our primary concerns, power and torque gain are secondary to what makes a tune a proper tune. It's also hard in some cases to replicate real world gains (that you would achieve on the street) on a dyno with rising IAT's reducing the available oxygen available for combustion.

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with GIAC. They are known more for their Porsche and Audi software. You bad experience is mutually exclusive to other offerings that exist in the marketplace.

Thanks to everyone that believes in us, our passion for BMW's and automotive technology, our commitment to quality products, and for not settling for anything less than excellence.

PS: Just for fun I averaged join date and post count of a bunch of reviews. I came out with an average of 2010 join date and 500+ post average per member. I guess I sit around all day with 57 different personalities and post online
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      05-31-2013, 02:31 AM   #16
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^^^ Perhaps you can let him try it out?
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      05-31-2013, 06:43 AM   #17
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Sounds to me like if he buys it and doesn't like it he can get what he doesn't like fixed or his money back.
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      05-31-2013, 06:48 AM   #18
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I was paid $1 billion dollars! I am now a billionaire. Oh yea!!!!! Sorry Mike, I had to let everyone now you paid me that much. I mean, it was better than winning the powerball! But I did hear Moe Joe over there got 1.1 billion, I want my extra .1 billion.

/end worthless post

/end worthless thread
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      05-31-2013, 06:49 AM   #19
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I do not have a tune by BPM, but I do know another forum member locally that does and the car definitely felt livelier than a stock tuned car. Mike Benvo is also a very responsive and helpful guy even though I have not given him any money.
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      05-31-2013, 06:50 AM   #20
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OP prob thinks the moon landing was a fake...
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      05-31-2013, 07:03 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi_traitor View Post
You really think they are going to get on here and bash that kind of money?
You clearly have been living under a rock. What dimension on the WORLD WIDE WEB is there that people dont bash the sh!t out of anything and everything. If you find Smallville/Perfectvile, please enlighten me. I'm moving tomorrow!
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      05-31-2013, 07:22 AM   #22
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Quote:
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What dimension on the WORLD WIDE WEB is there that people dont bash the sh!t out of anything and everything.
Which is all-the-more proof that the Benvo tune is a winner (unless you are a conspiracy theorist).
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