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      04-27-2010, 09:47 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
With all those cylinders and pistons scuffed and the broken piston it looks like detonation to me. Poor balance would produce a serious vibration but not the scuffing or damaged piston. The sudden increase in oil consumption resulted from the cylinder pressure (boost) going into the oil sump once the piston broke and the top ring could not seal properly. The misfire could have been from the broken ring land. Detonation will also damage the bearings.
+1

However, I wish you the best with the new motor.
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      04-27-2010, 09:47 AM   #24
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damn sorry to hear all this.
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      04-27-2010, 09:47 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
With all those cylinders and pistons scuffed and the broken piston it looks like detonation to me. Poor balance would produce a serious vibration but not the scuffing or damaged piston. The sudden increase in oil consumption resulted from the cylinder pressure (boost) going into the oil sump once the piston broke and the top ring could not seal properly. The misfire could have been from the broken ring land. Detonation will also damage the bearings.
From what I know, they did a compression test on my engine and the results showed a slight under compression on the right side of the bank. However, within tolerance it seems from what I was told. I know a few people inside the BMW workshop here and from what I have been told, they did the compression test when the engine was COLD. It was not done at all when the engine was warm! So I really dont know what the fuck they are up to when they were troubleshooting the engine. Clearly, they do not have the right people to do the work here. Whats even more amusing is that they wanted to tear the engine down here and repair it. How inspiring when they cant even troubleshoot properly! Those were the reasons that led me to send the engine beyond my borders for a full evaluation and rebuild because I know too many things would be covered up and manipulated if I left it to them to sort it out. Not to mention a fat bill after that with no assurance that it will work fine. Cause to me, a repair of the engine is not sufficient especially after such damage. I would go for nothing less but a new motor or in this instance, a full and proper rebuild.
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      04-27-2010, 09:56 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elmariachi View Post
Top Speed delimited though I did something like 278km/hr and from factory it was limited at 255 or something so that was a giveaway that the ECU was "touched".
My sympathies.
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      04-27-2010, 09:59 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
This is almost certainly not true about the Schrick cams. Our S65 cams have such a small base circle that it's not possible to regrind them to a much different profile. I know a race team who tried, and said it was pointless. When I rebuilt my motor, I saw first hand how small the base circle was. If you did regrind them, the base circle is so small, that you would probably have to install valve stem shims to make up the difference in height (or simply install new valves with longer valve stems).
Then perhaps I was wrong in what I have heard abt Schrick. Sorry abt it mate.
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      04-27-2010, 10:08 AM   #28
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I am attaching a snapshot of a PDF letter here on what the dealer have claimed to have inspected. This was the first level before BMW Asia came into the picture. The letter from BMW Asia is at home and I will get that scanned and put up here once I get back home. Am currently travelling.



I showed them that my spark plug melted towards the tip and they said I or someone intently pushed the tip forward. Why the hell would I wanna do that for?

Spark Plugs after the misfire incident

The plugs done only 20,000km.





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Last edited by elmariachi; 04-27-2010 at 10:20 AM.
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      04-27-2010, 10:27 AM   #29
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I am going through a similar issue with my car right now (different brand, different cause, but same BS from the dealer)... i took the same route as you, got it fixed at my own expense... but as soon as i get the invoice for the work, i will sue the dealer because i have PROOF that they are responsible.
in your case (please someone corrects me if i am wrong), they voided your warranty because they determined you have "tuned" your ECU (btw, did you or not?). however, based on what you said, and what a few people here have said, the damage most likely comes from an unbalanced crankshaft, and what not = mechanical imperfections present from the start, rather then electronic fuck-ups... shouldnt this be enough to have a case to demonstrate that the ECU has nothing to do with that and that BMW is fully responsible for the damages???
either way, ifeel your pain...
Pat
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      04-27-2010, 11:37 AM   #30
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The issue here could be from a variety of reasons. Tune, low octane fuel, overheating (most likely factor IMHO seeing how the damage has spread). But one that draws the most interesting question is why an official BMW representative office was so confident nothing was wrong with my engine BUT they have to void engine warranty and gearbox warranty??

If they are so confident nothing was wrong with my car, what need is there to void the warranty? I mean I have never seen anything like this before. What ever has happened has happened and it cannot be undone. I have made my decision and have lived and accepted it. What I cannot accept is things like lying to me on the engine being perfectly fine when its not. Taking a go at voiding my gearbox warranty when they did a royal fuck up of changing the DCT gearbox oil and have found a convenient time to void that as well because they knew it was their mistake and it would come back to them if my gearbox broke down half way? I mean all this just doesnt add up. Also, they never ever offered me a solution out of this. I had to keep asking and demanding solutions to a point I showed them the finger and went my way.

As to what happened, I have been told that the spark plugs in the S65 do not have individual knock sensors. It uses the spark plugs itself to detect knocking in the engine. When my spark plug misfired, I did not get any error code. The reason why is because the the two prongs has melted against the centre stem and there was no way for an ECU to throw a code this way. The only way the ECU throws a code is when it detects there is no "arcing" of the spark plugs which can only happen if the two prongs are still away from the centre stem and not melted against it. So what basically happened could also be "pre-detonation" where the spark plug is red hot (Not arcing) and there was a pre-detonation. Meaning there is already combustion in the chamber even before the piston is on its way up. And the piston with the broken edges is the same chamber where my spark plug misfired. The tune I had on my car was just to remove the O2 CEL lights for my Akrapovic, top speed delimit and some decent power as we have reasonably good fuel here. I was careful not to overdo the tune as this engine makes more than 100hp per litre and it would be purely stupid to ask the block for much more. If any, it only accelerated the weakness on my engine. I think it would have happened to my car sooner or later even if it was stock to the virgin.
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      04-27-2010, 12:12 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchM3dreamer View Post
I am going through a similar issue with my car right now (different brand, different cause, but same BS from the dealer)... i took the same route as you, got it fixed at my own expense... but as soon as i get the invoice for the work, i will sue the dealer because i have PROOF that they are responsible.
in your case (please someone corrects me if i am wrong), they voided your warranty because they determined you have "tuned" your ECU (btw, did you or not?). however, based on what you said, and what a few people here have said, the damage most likely comes from an unbalanced crankshaft, and what not = mechanical imperfections present from the start, rather then electronic fuck-ups... shouldnt this be enough to have a case to demonstrate that the ECU has nothing to do with that and that BMW is fully responsible for the damages???
either way, ifeel your pain...
Pat
Birds of Feathers flock together.
Trust me over time, pain is immune.
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      04-27-2010, 12:19 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elmariachi View Post
Birds of Feathers flock together.
Trust me over time, pain is immune.
back !
it's going to be a long painful process...
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      04-27-2010, 12:20 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
I do not believe the OP's engine damage is from balance at all. It appears to be from detonation which can be caused by a tune or low octane fuel, overheated engine, etc. Any serious engine imbalance would cause a serious vibration that you could easily feel. Engine balance doesn't cause detonation, piston scuffing, broken ring lands, etc.
thanks for clarifying that...
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      04-27-2010, 12:45 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
OP - I can't answer your dealer issues.

If the sparkplug is from the cylinder with the damaged piston more than likely the closed sparkplug side electrodes are from the piston pieces hitting the side electrode and pushing them against the center electrode. This would have occured after the detonation/broken ring land. Pieces can also go up the intake and get sucked into another cylinder.

Pre-ignition can only occur if there is a hot spot. The sparkplug would not be glowing red unless it was extremely overheated via detonation or incorrect AFR, or something major. I believe the sparkplug damage resulted after the piston damage which was from detonation. A non-firing sparkplug would not cause pre-ignition. The fact that all the pistons and cylinders are scuffed and that you have unhappy bearings suggest detonation to me.
You are right. My spark plugs has alot of scuffing marks on the side electrodes and the dealer / BMW Asia thinks I or some third party workshop used something to bend it in. Absurd! Piston 8 was damaged as well and it could be due to broken pieces of Piston 6 which was stamped on Piston 8 through the intake, etc. Piston 8 didnt have any problem with the spark plugs but I believe the damage was around from Bank 6. This is Piston 8 with pieces of Piston 6's autograph on it.



I was really all out on the car and it was very hot. It happened on the last few laps just before I was about to cool down. Its hard to speculate what it is exactly but its a painful lesson nevertheless.
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      04-27-2010, 01:08 PM   #35
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Good luck on the rebuild. I cringe reading your story and I hope this does not happen to anyone.

I would definitely explore legal actions if possible.
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      04-27-2010, 01:17 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyeatsworld View Post
Good luck on the rebuild. I cringe reading your story and I hope this does not happen to anyone.

I would definitely explore legal actions if possible.
I hope for it not to happen to other fellow M3 owners too for it is definitely not something one would want to go through which is why I am posting everything here. I am just lucky I got the right people rebuilding the engine for me.

Legal action may not be feasible as we do not have laws like in the US where consumers have alot of rights. Also, its more $$$. I would rather save up that money and buy another car which is for sure not a BMW.

To date, BMW has not proven to me what exactly went wrong in the car. They did not even send my ECU to Germany for that matter. They figured it was quicker to void the warranty in 3 days and base it on top speed and a few other parameters. This was what exactly happened. Nor did they prove that the top speed killed the block or any other parameter for that reason.
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      04-27-2010, 02:17 PM   #37
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Hang in there man, remember "this too shall pass..."
PS> Who did your tune?
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      04-27-2010, 02:34 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfeltiii View Post
Hang in there man, remember "this too shall pass..."
PS> Who did your tune?
Yes it will be. GODSPEED.
Regarding my tune, I cant disclose who tuned my car. I am sorry.
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      04-27-2010, 02:56 PM   #39
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I'll going to second and third what Track Rat has already stated. You have detonation until proven otherwise. Anyone who's run a boosted engine and gone lean will recognize this damage pattern. Obviously you're not boosted but detonation in a n/a motor will do the same thing. Yes, it will scuff your cylinder walls, break your pistons and ring lands as well as scuff your bearings as you are subjecting the cylinder to really high pressures (basically uncontrolled explosions). I've seen this enough times to say it's detonation as cause #1-#3 until proven otherwise.
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      04-27-2010, 03:10 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorH View Post
I'll going to second and third what Track Rat has already stated. You have detonation until proven otherwise. Anyone who's run a boosted engine and gone lean will recognize this damage pattern. Obviously you're not boosted but detonation in a n/a motor will do the same thing. Yes, it will scuff your cylinder walls, break your pistons and ring lands as well as scuff your bearings as you are subjecting the cylinder to really high pressures (basically uncontrolled explosions). I've seen this enough times to say it's detonation as cause #1-#3 until proven otherwise.
That could very well be one of the reasons on what has happened. An overheated spark plug (too hot a heat range for the application) as seen from my plugs could also be the reason that has led to this. Glowing carbon deposits on a hot exhaust valve (which may mean the valve is running too hot because of poor seating, a weak valve spring (a few cases of S65s having weak valve springs) or insufficient valve lash) could also be another reason as I had to replace about 5 of the valves that were badly burnt / bent. Take note that my RPM limiter was untouched.
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      04-27-2010, 03:58 PM   #41
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Sounds like perhaps you are confirming the suspicion. Best thing is after the rebuild make sure you avoid whatever the conditions and tune up that led to this. Maybe partly bad luck and some other things. Sorry for you having this but perhaps it will be the first and last time.

I've seen motors get so hot from a lean condition with detonation that they melted the cylinder head (head studs melted into the head).
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      04-27-2010, 04:06 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorH View Post
Sounds like perhaps you are confirming the suspicion. Best thing is after the rebuild make sure you avoid whatever the conditions and tune up that led to this. Maybe partly bad luck and some other things. Sorry for you having this but perhaps it will be the first and last time.

I've seen motors get so hot from a lean condition with detonation that they melted the cylinder head (head studs melted into the head).
As the saying goes, "Once bitten, twice shy"
The rebuilt engine will be stronger with better parts. Hopefully, my luck dont run out this time. I am sure it would be a better block.
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      04-27-2010, 04:19 PM   #43
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OP

I know there is a lot of discussion here regarding detonation. And with some of the reading and images, this does look like detonation. Also the rotating assembly out of balance does not help either.

Here is my input:

Detonation occurs due to not enough motor octane and too high compression ratio. The gas explodes violently instead of burning evenly. Now the DME constantly monitors A/F and knock ( or at least we hope it was ) and if anything registers, it should automatically pull timing. If that is not enough it will add fuel to richen the mixture.

Now all of this being said, and the assumption your DME was working properly even if you ran 87 octane, the computer should compensate and reduce the timing. If the detonation occuring is beyond the computers capability to make adjustments, you get the damage that you had.

As another poster mentioned a leak down test would have shown the problem immediately. Not just a compression test. But like I stated earlier, BMW did the bare minimum to correct the issue, and we all know the end result.

This is the reason why I refuse to put a tune on my car because its a cop out for BMW to fuck you in the end. Good luck with the new build and send us some photos when you get them.
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      04-27-2010, 07:21 PM   #44
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I had a similar problem with my E92 3.20D last year. There were strange (rattling) noises coming from the engine. I went to dealer and told them to check the engine. They couldn't find any faulty codes and said : "its the traditional sound of BMW engine, nothing is wrong". After 2000 kms the engine stopped while I was cruising around 120 KM/H on the road. They towed the car to the dealer and couldn't find whats wrong with the engine after inspected it nearly one month. Dealer sent some photos to the BMW AG (Germany) and they sent a new engine for replacement on warranty. After the car repaired I sold it and got the M3.

But now what I am reading is very sad and alarming. My car has no speed limitor from factory (I got M Driver's pack) and I generally do high speed tests (go over 300 KM/H on the clock). If the engine is not that reliable I don't think what I am gonna do if the same thing happens to me since my warrant is over now.

And also those service technicians here in my country don't have enough knowledge both about BMW engines and BMW cars. If I face with any problem about my car, I wrote directly to BMW AG (from their web) and they immediately contact with my local dealer and tell them the instructions. I told them to change my 6MT gearbox oil on my break in service and they refused to change because its unnecessary. I insisted but they didn't accept. Then I wrote BMW Germany and they called the dealer and told them to change my gearbox oil

At least, you could write or call BMW AG about the problems you have with your local dealer before you do anything on your engine. Anyway, what is done is done and I hope you figure out the problems... And its also nice decision for you to stay away from BMW in the future..
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