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      05-14-2010, 01:53 PM   #67
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at a local dinan dealer, that includes shipping and diff fluid, they really charge you for everything lol, but if anyone is near ct or ny im sure i can hook anyone up

good deal. you have me thinking since i'm in nj. is this something they knock out in a few hours? so i can drive up in the morning and drive home the same day?

i had 3.91 gears put in both of my previous e46m3's and it was one of the best mods!
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      05-14-2010, 04:16 PM   #68
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Thanks for the review on the differential. Every time I have the opportunity to do a side by side comparison I’m blown away by the difference it makes. It's unfortunate that most people just seem to over look them because they don’t add power to the engine.

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      05-14-2010, 06:23 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by mixja View Post
Personally I'd highly recommend Powerchip for the tune. If you are going to get a tune, you might as well go with the one that in the general consensus of this forum seems to offer the most gains (I'm sure other tunes are very close, like ESS and GIAC, but vendor claims and opinion seems to show Dinan is definitely a step down).

Do the tune, air filter, crank pulley and exhaust first (are you looking at a full exhaust? If not you're just buying sound so you could remove it from the list). These mods are actually adding power and torque, more so than the in-gear torque you'd get with the 4.10 FD. Then assess whether you really want the diff. If you really want to save money, consider a primary cat delete instead of an expensive exhaust system - results for me have been excellent, I'm publishing up some test data soon.

Also on the Dinan air filter, honestly this is a 15 minute DIY install - don't pay ~$400 to get that installed.
Mixia - very interested in hearing your primary cat delete information. I've been toying with this idea as well...let us know how it goes!!
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      05-14-2010, 08:19 PM   #70
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how about a video run of one with and one without the diff? that should just put and end to it
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      05-15-2010, 08:41 AM   #71
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how about a video run of one with and one without the diff? that should just put and end to it
+1 Would be nice to see a video of one modded and one stock.
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      05-16-2010, 12:56 AM   #72
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Who are these people that always chime in to say it's not faster? I don't care if my car is now 0-60 in 6 seconds, All that matters is that I got the diff and my car feels perfect!!! With the stock Differential and "the way I drive" it felt like a 328 from 0-20mph.
Now I floor it and laugh because it f'ing pulls in 1st gear. to each their own...
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      05-16-2010, 01:04 AM   #73
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Who are these people that always chime in to say it's not faster? I don't care if my car is now 0-60 in 6 seconds, All that matters is that I got the diff and my car feels perfect!!! With the stock Differential and "the way I drive" it felt like a 328 from 0-20mph.
Now I floor it and laugh because it f'ing pulls in 1st gear. to each their own...
Folks who truly understand the mod is typicall who "these people" are. Again it all depends on what you want. Diff mods can and do provide a higher peak in gear acceleration (higher acceleration but for less time in each gear). That will feel good. However, by most metrics and most peoples standard definitions many times they are not "faster" overall, strip nor track. What I don't understand is why most folks are concerned with specs but don't seem to care that certain very expensive mods don't improve these specs. I guess it just shows that to many feel is as important as more concrete results.
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      05-16-2010, 01:25 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
What I don't understand is why most folks are concerned with specs but don't seem to care that certain very expensive mods don't improve these specs.
The mod may not be meant to improve on specific specs - it may be meant to improve the "feel" of the car for a specific driver. This improvement cannot be measured for comparative gains as it is a very subjective thing, yet still a no less important way for an individual car owner to assess value of a mod - improved drivability is a good thing, and people are willing to pay for it as eeeboy eluded to

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I guess it just shows that to many feel is as important as more concrete results.
Or even more important - - but everyone's definition of "concrete" results is very subjective as well.
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      05-16-2010, 03:22 PM   #75
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wow the diff must have went up then bc i got it for alot less then that. i wouldn't have done it if it was that much

i like all my mods from dinan but the one that was the best for me the most power gain and the most overall make me want to get in the car everyday mod was the midpipe and muffler combo.

i had the software and rear muffler first which was ok little power increase and the software made the car run alot better and increased rev limiter and all. but when i added the midpipe i was like wow. it was like a new car. the increased power and tq was awesome

so if your asking me my op i would leave the other stuff for now and just do the midpipe and muffler with the software that is gonna be the most power gain and that you will actually really feel the difference.

the sound is amazing and it doesn't drone and is only loud when you want it to be so i don't think it would bother the wife.

if that guy whos car your going to drive has the midpipe and muffler then you will see what i mean. below 4k it has a nice deep tone then above 4k it has a higher pitch exotic tone to it. all this while not droning inside the car and not loud inside the car



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Hi, my sales guy just called me with an update - and it isn't good....

1) Dinan 4.10 Diff of course isn't covered by the 20% off sale.... all in = $4798
2) Dinan High flow intake: all in = 1393
3) Dinan pulley all in = 897
4) Dinan software all in = 910
5) Dinan exhaust all in = 2900

I think I could live with 1 kidney if I could get 5k for it....

H Bomb - what would you do? I really want the diff and that has the break in period that I could do when the car is breaking in when I pick it up.

The exhaust maybe too loud for my wife.... she has to go in it, so I am going on Monday to drive a DCT car with all this (except the diff) the dealership owner has one....

Question: will the intake (stupid amount of money), pulley and software give me the same pull as the diff?

The pulley, software and intake has no break in period... so I could do that down the road.

The diff, pulley, intake, software - no exhaust is $7800 all in.

basically I don't want to spend any more than 5k that puts the car at over $90k Canadian.... I may pass a hat around...

OR should I do nothing - drive the car for a bit and then upgrade slowly - the danger is I don't do anything.

I am bummed out.... Help !
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      05-16-2010, 03:25 PM   #76
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actually those other companies you mentioned are very close in price to the dinan parts when you compare. i price shopped and they were all very close in price and some even more money. i had dinan in the past on all my M cars so i just went with them bc i never had problems in the past

i agree for that money they want to charge him on the diff i would drop it and do some form of a midpipe combo as that gave me the most power and wow factor

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The car really is damn nice with absolutely no mods. For me the DCT is probably the best feature of the car next to the engine.

Keep in mind Dinan is just about the most expensive aftermarket stuff you can get for an M3. Sure you get a warranty but it is not even close to worth it to me. It is not the best parts either, good IMO, but not the best. If what you want is purely more performance (i.e. more power) consider a package of items from some folks like AA, Rogue, Fabspeed, Gintani, Vorsteiner, etc. You'll get such a larger bang for your buck. Also if $ is a big factor drop the diff.
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      05-16-2010, 03:29 PM   #77
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Dinan isn't a step down in the software dept they aren't trying to do what those other companies are doing with the software by getting the very most hp and tq out of it. i am quite sure Dinan could get more out of it if they wanted to

they offer a conservative tune for people who want that. one that adds something to the car but not one that steps into the realm of having problems with it. not saying the other companies are bad but some people prefer a conservative tune rather then one that is going for the most possible


Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
Personally I'd highly recommend Powerchip for the tune. If you are going to get a tune, you might as well go with the one that in the general consensus of this forum seems to offer the most gains (I'm sure other tunes are very close, like ESS and GIAC, but vendor claims and opinion seems to show Dinan is definitely a step down).

Do the tune, air filter, crank pulley and exhaust first (are you looking at a full exhaust? If not you're just buying sound so you could remove it from the list). These mods are actually adding power and torque, more so than the in-gear torque you'd get with the 4.10 FD. Then assess whether you really want the diff. If you really want to save money, consider a primary cat delete instead of an expensive exhaust system - results for me have been excellent, I'm publishing up some test data soon.

Also on the Dinan air filter, honestly this is a 15 minute DIY install - don't pay ~$400 to get that installed.
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      05-16-2010, 03:34 PM   #78
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i just realized you don't even have the car yet. i would drive it stock for awhile and get to know the car then decide on the mods. you may like it as is stock and decide you don't need anything. it is a great car stock just as it is. i have the 6sp man which seems to be the non fav here over the DCT but i love it. i drove a DCT and while cool and all i just prefer a real manual.

good luck with your new car
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      05-16-2010, 05:08 PM   #79
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The mod may not be meant to improve on specific specs - it may be meant to improve the "feel" of the car for a specific driver. This improvement cannot be measured for comparative gains as it is a very subjective thing...
Rubbish.

It actually is not subjective at all and is easily measureable. Of course you can also get this simple one by simulation. Almost all aspects of performance that folks only decribe by feel are very well quantifiable and measureable. All you need to measure is acceleration vs. time. What you feel from this mod is increased peak and average acceleration. By measuring the accel vs. time you will also get the shape and the duration in each gear.


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Or even more important - - but everyone's definition of "concrete" results is very subjective as well.
Well folks might have different criteria but again whether it is a commonly reported performance metric or something such as feel you can measure, quantify and rank it. "Concrete" simply means measurable and significant.
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      05-16-2010, 06:36 PM   #80
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Rubbish.
You're dismissing my entire argument while missing my point - and not being very nice

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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It actually is not subjective at all and is easily measureable. Of course you can also get this simple one by simulation. Almost all aspects of performance that folks only decribe by feel are very well quantifiable and measureable. All you need to measure is acceleration vs. time. What you feel from this mod is increased peak and average acceleration. By measuring the accel vs. time you will also get the shape and the duration in each gear.
Mods can be measured against a baseline yes, and the changes recorded. The assessment of how these changes align with the driver's expectations of the modification however is entirely subjective. This particular mod has negative impacts in other areas that can be shown through those measurements, but if the driver likes the feel better, (ie better target rpm in each gear etc) than it's a successful modification for that driver, and maybe not for another

The goal is to make the car feel better - we are sentient beings and we assess all things by how they make us feel, and any subsequent measurements are tools to analyze, not the end goal.

Improved 0-60, 60-130 1/4 mile times etc are examples of measurement based goals, but changes in measurements can't be uniformly applied to ascertain the success of all modifications.

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Well folks might have different criteria but again whether it is a commonly reported performance metric or something such as feel you can measure, quantify and rank it. "Concrete" simply means measurable and significant.
I am not dismissing the science at all, it is essential for us to be able to drive cars like this and I agree with you in it's value as an analysis and engineering tool to create and improve.

However, you can't measure perception - and that's what we're talking about here.
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      05-16-2010, 08:14 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by H Bomb View Post
Dinan isn't a step down in the software dept they aren't trying to do what those other companies are doing with the software by getting the very most hp and tq out of it. i am quite sure Dinan could get more out of it if they wanted to

they offer a conservative tune for people who want that. one that adds something to the car but not one that steps into the realm of having problems with it. not saying the other companies are bad but some people prefer a conservative tune rather then one that is going for the most possible
Yes and No.

I think the Dinan tune doesn't make as much power or at least claim to make as much power because it is a universal tune - i.e. for 91 Octane + - so it won't be tuned as aggressively as an alternative tune that is tuned for a minimum 93 Octane.

One could argue that raising the rev limit to 8600rpm is potentially more dangerous than any other tuning change that could be made - it certainly raises the possibility of the tune being detected (most conservative folk probably wouldn't want that).
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      05-16-2010, 08:18 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meff View Post
You're dismissing my entire argument while missing my point - and not being very nice



Mods can be measured against a baseline yes, and the changes recorded. The assessment of how these changes align with the driver's expectations of the modification however is entirely subjective. This particular mod has negative impacts in other areas that can be shown through those measurements, but if the driver likes the feel better, (ie better target rpm in each gear etc) than it's a successful modification for that driver, and maybe not for another

The goal is to make the car feel better - we are sentient beings and we assess all things by how they make us feel, and any subsequent measurements are tools to analyze, not the end goal.

Improved 0-60, 60-130 1/4 mile times etc are examples of measurement based goals, but changes in measurements can't be uniformly applied to ascertain the success of all modifications.



I am not dismissing the science at all, it is essential for us to be able to drive cars like this and I agree with you in it's value as an analysis and engineering tool to create and improve.

However, you can't measure perception - and that's what we're talking about here.

For instance, adding my cat-back exhaust did little to nothing for the objective metrics on my car, velocity/acceleration/jerk, but it sure is more fun to drive and feels like more of a beast since I got it.
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      05-16-2010, 09:20 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meff View Post
You're dismissing my entire argument while missing my point - and not being very nice



Mods can be measured against a baseline yes, and the changes recorded. The assessment of how these changes align with the driver's expectations of the modification however is entirely subjective. This particular mod has negative impacts in other areas that can be shown through those measurements, but if the driver likes the feel better, (ie better target rpm in each gear etc) than it's a successful modification for that driver, and maybe not for another

The goal is to make the car feel better - we are sentient beings and we assess all things by how they make us feel, and any subsequent measurements are tools to analyze, not the end goal.

Improved 0-60, 60-130 1/4 mile times etc are examples of measurement based goals, but changes in measurements can't be uniformly applied to ascertain the success of all modifications.



I am not dismissing the science at all, it is essential for us to be able to drive cars like this and I agree with you in it's value as an analysis and engineering tool to create and improve.

However, you can't measure perception - and that's what we're talking about here.
I completely agree. And calling someone's point of view "rubbish" isn't very nice..... we can all have our own opinions....

It is all about feel for me personally. BUT, before I buy, I need to be convinced. I would like to see objective metrics on the mods by the vendors that sell the mods. ActiveWerks does a good job of this. Like a Dyno graph AND an independant confirmation of improvement by a VBOX 0-60 before and after a tune, or the pulleys, or air box.... and diff.... If they actually work and prove it, they will sell lots more you would think.

I think both points of view are valid - 1) the metrics to prove that the risk of modding the car (risk to warranty) is worth the gain in performance. and 2) that the car feels faster, or pulls more, or responds quicker.

IE: the Dinan air filter - The High Flow Intake produces a maximum gain of 8 horsepower and 5 lb-ft torque @ 8200 rpm - Well does it? Dyno by Dinan please..... and lets check the 0-60 time before and after - does it make any difference for $1350 installed? OR can I just by the $70 Active Autowerks air filter and get the same result.

Now the feel part - is the throttle response better, does it sound better...

The 4.10 gears are a better feel from members here, and we do see videos of E46 M3 cars with 4.10 beating stock geared cars....


We should be able to see an improved torque curve for sure. I would love to see the 0-60 times before and after.... or a race of a E9X with stock gears to a 4.10 car - that would put this issue to bed.

(H Bomb and everyone - thanks for all your comments on my posts I really appreciate them !! I am soooo pumped to be getting my M).
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      05-16-2010, 10:16 PM   #84
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I completely agree. And calling someone's point of view "rubbish" isn't very nice..... we can all have our own opinions.....
Swamp was just kidding there and I was kidding right back - no foul there
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      05-17-2010, 02:16 AM   #85
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Quote:
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You're dismissing my entire argument while missing my point - and not being very nice
Well what you said was rubbish. Let me quote it again, "This improvement cannot be measured for comparative gains as it is a very subjective thing...". I'm sorry but that is flat out incorrect. Sure you can't precisely measure a feeling. If that is what you are talking about then I would call that so obvious as it is not worth mentioning. This mod provides improved peak and in gear acceleration that is EXACTLY what people here feel, report and like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meff View Post
Mods can be measured against a baseline yes, and the changes recorded. The assessment of how these changes align with the driver's expectations of the modification however is entirely subjective. This particular mod has negative impacts in other areas that can be shown through those measurements, but if the driver likes the feel better, (ie better target rpm in each gear etc) than it's a successful modification for that driver, and maybe not for another

The goal is to make the car feel better - we are sentient beings and we assess all things by how they make us feel, and any subsequent measurements are tools to analyze, not the end goal.
Are you confusing emotion with the humans ability to feel and basically "measure" acceleration? I've never brought up emotion and although it has a key role in our evaluation of cars and mods it is not the topic here.

Either we are just on a radically different wavelength, you are still missing the point or you're not making you point very clearly. The "feel" that we keep discussing is quantifiable, measureable and there is an almost perfect correlation between them. Again... A FD mod provides:

-Improved peak in gear acceleration
-Improved average acceleration comparing gear to gear
-Improved "feel"

All of these things are consistent, both the feel and the measurements (and of course the physics).

The only possible inconsistency here between feel and measurement is:

-The car will get to redline in each gear quicker. This provides a false illusion of a car that has an overall (i.e. multi gear acceleration) higher acceleration. It will be sometimes a bit worse and sometimes a bit better depending on exactly what specific metric you chose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meff View Post
Improved 0-60, 60-130 1/4 mile times etc are examples of measurement based goals, but changes in measurements can't be uniformly applied to ascertain the success of all modifications.
I never said they could. However in THIS case whether you want feel or other metrics improved you can measure both and quantify both.

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I am not dismissing the science at all, it is essential for us to be able to drive cars like this and I agree with you in it's value as an analysis and engineering tool to create and improve.
Some agreement, whew.

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However, you can't measure perception - and that's what we're talking about here.
This gets back to the emotion thing which in this case should be entirely left out of the discussion. I'm nearly certain no one here in saying "feel" meant emotion. They simply mean their perception of in gear "punch" or "pull" which again is exactly equivalent to peak in gear acceleration. And despite being able to be fooled (mostly by acoustics and NVH) humans can feel and "measure" acceleration pretty well.
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      05-17-2010, 02:28 AM   #86
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Quote:
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we do see videos of E46 M3 cars with 4.10 beating stock geared cars....
The differences between FD and stock in many cases will be even smaller than car to car differences. Cars can have quite a few percent variation in power based on their state of break in. Those cars may very well have had other mods as well. The only way to discern this definitively is to use the same car, instrumented tests, before and after mods, with multiple runs to do some simple averaging. One race/test when very close only tells you about that race/test. Multiple races tell you reality about which car performs better.

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We should be able to see an improved torque curve for sure. I would love to see the 0-60 times before and after....that would put this issue to bed.
A FD ratio mod changes the torque at the wheels. Of course you can measure that after doing a FD mod. An improvement to that spec will provide an improved in gear "punch". The real metric that determines overall vehicle performance is simply power (to the wheels) to weight ratio. The only way to really get improvements in performance is to better this ratio. Again there is no such thing as a free lunch. Also 0-60 is too much of a traction and driver launch skill race. It is by far from the best way to show the difference between stock and modded FD ratio.
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      05-17-2010, 04:03 AM   #87
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I've posted this up before but here it is again for this thread.

The following graph is taken from CarTest simulation software. The graph shows the effect of changing Final Drive ratio on 1/4 mile times.

As you can see, the software predicts the ideal FD for 1/4 mile is around 3.95, with the 3.85 and 4.10 being pretty much identical.

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      05-17-2010, 08:31 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Well what you said was rubbish. Let me quote it again, "This improvement cannot be measured for comparative gains as it is a very subjective thing...". I'm sorry but that is flat out incorrect. Sure you can't precisely measure a feeling. If that is what you are talking about then I would call that so obvious as it is not worth mentioning. This mod provides improved peak and in gear acceleration that is EXACTLY what people here feel, report and like.
Swamp, dude!! - you are relentless !!

The "improvement" I was referring to is relative to the perception of the changes by the driver - you cannot measure that.

Here is the complete quote ; "The mod may not be meant to improve on specific specs - it may be meant to improve the "feel" of the car for a specific driver. This improvement cannot be measured for comparative gains as it is a very subjective thing, yet still a no less important way for an individual car owner to assess value of a mod"

You are forgetting the original post here - The OP is happy with the mod and his improved drivability and that is the acid test of it's success to him and the others chiming in. I am just trying to convey to you that in addition to your approach, there are other intangible ways to evaluate any modification. I know you have done extensive work on this particular mod, so you are well invested in it's pros and cons and you bring an invaluable service to the membership of this forum with your input. I am not attempting to dismiss your analysis or even challenge it, I simply want to make the point that there are other ways to assess these things as individuals.

What would you say to mfeltiii and his example of his cat back exhaust? Does it not qualify as a mod that can be judged because it is something that can't be measured ? He enjoys the sound and that changes his perception of his car and increases his enjoyment - successful mod in my books. What about a rear diffuser or carbon trim? You can't measure these either, but the driver will enjoy his car more as a result.


Quote:
Are you confusing emotion with the humans ability to feel and basically "measure" acceleration? I've never brought up emotion and although it has a key role in our evaluation of cars and mods it is not the topic here.
Quote:
Either we are just on a radically different wavelength, you are still missing the point or you're not making you point very clearly. The "feel" that we keep discussing is quantifiable, measureable and there is an almost perfect correlation between them.
I'm not going to debate the meaning of the word "feel" - no. You can feel improved acceleration, braking, handling yes. You can measure them as well, but the f*#king smile they bring to your face can't be. Call it emotion, call it improved feel, hell call it euphoria - don't care. Unless you have a happiness meter I'm unaware of.... it is an intangible that cannot be quantified, but can certainly be used to assess the validity of a modification.

Quote:
Again... A FD mod provides:

-Improved peak in gear acceleration
-Improved average acceleration comparing gear to gear
-Improved "feel"

All of these things are consistent, both the feel and the measurements (and of course the physics).

The only possible inconsistency here between feel and measurement is:

-The car will get to redline in each gear quicker. This provides a false illusion of a car that has an overall (i.e. multi gear acceleration) higher acceleration. It will be sometimes a bit worse and sometimes a bit better depending on exactly what specific metric you chose
I don't know why you posted this again as none of this is in dispute.

You do reference here that it provides a "false illusion" That is in fact a change in a driver's perception and therefore supports my point. Whether it's real or perceived, it does not matter if the driver likes the change to the car.

Quote:
Some agreement, whew.
Ditto

Quote:
This gets back to the emotion thing which in this case should be entirely left out of the discussion. I'm nearly certain no one here in saying "feel" meant emotion. They simply mean their perception of in gear "punch" or "pull" which again is exactly equivalent to peak in gear acceleration. And despite being able to be fooled (mostly by acoustics and NVH) humans can feel and "measure" acceleration pretty well.
The fact that you want emotion taken out of the equation is what I feel is wrong with your argument. I am not suggesting that your analysis be taken out of the equation, in fact I feel it is very necessary, I am simply stating that both are valid ways to assess any modification.

I really don't want to get in to a battle of attrition with you Swamp - by the look of your almost 7000 posts, I will lose I'm sure. Just trying to get my point across and am having fun debating you. I am posting here with all due respect to what you bring to the forum, but feel strongly about my position.

Tag, you're it.
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