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      05-12-2010, 02:27 PM   #45
J08M3
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I'd do the diff if it wasn't so expensive.

The only time you can use math to figure out which is faster is when you're only talking about straight line driving. You can run the quick scenarios for the drag strip, or stop light to stop light racing and have a pretty good figure on which is faster, but any other circumstance can't be figured with simple math.
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      05-12-2010, 02:32 PM   #46
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^^

thank you i thought i was going crazy or something. i didn't buy this car to care about 0-60 or 1/4 mile or straight line this or that. i bought the car to have fun in everything but a straight line and for that the diff is awesome. the stock gears were to long. i always found myself in a gap on my twisty runs. just like on my race bikes i drop a tooth or add a tooth on the sprocket to fill this in when the stock gears are to long and gappy. this car should have come with these gears stock in my op. to bad the diff isn't as cheap as a couple sprockets lol
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      05-12-2010, 03:05 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Bomb View Post
although i have yet to read anyone with the diff that does not like it
And you probably won't - we all have a typical way or rationalizing our mods whether they meet certain goals or not.
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      05-12-2010, 03:10 PM   #48
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The only time you can use math to figure out which is faster is when you're only talking about straight line driving. You can run the quick scenarios for the drag strip, or stop light to stop light racing and have a pretty good figure on which is faster, but any other circumstance can't be figured with simple math.
That is absolutely false. The performance prediction software I use will in fact predict lap times. However, it is a very rough prediction and hence not really worth anything at all. Through validation I have realized the algorithms are accurate for straight line and not for tracks. All of vehicle dynamics, straights and curves alike is very well understood and characterized by basic math and engineering. So just because CarTest fails at lap time predictions certainly does not mean the problem can not be attacked with such a technique. I would be willing to bet anything many OEMs and certainly F1 teams have such capability, have had it for a very long time and it is reasonable accurate. Now that being said there is virtually no way track predictions can ever be as accurate as straigt line WOT predictions. You have so many more variables such as grip, more surface variability, variation in line and much more dynamic with throttle on/off and brakes on/off.
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      05-12-2010, 07:30 PM   #49
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^- Well I agree software can be used for more than straight lines... Of course I'm sure major race teams use it also, but I'm sure there software is much more accurate and much more precise for their specific application. But when you're just talking basic acceleration numbers as outlined in earlier post on this thread, it's just good for the straight line where many less variables come in to play.
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      05-12-2010, 08:00 PM   #50
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i can honestly say i havent really noticed any traction issues, and i can still redline line it in all the gears, ill pay attention when the weather is a little nicer and go through the gears for. but the car still holds traction just like before
thanks you and H Bomb and Studntloan - the people that have this mod - I am doing it... and I haven't even got my car yet. I will break in the motor and the 4.10 diff at the same time....

I asked my sales guy for a price on the 4.10 diff, the Dinan software (raises red line) and the dinan pulley. I think all of that comes to:

Pulley - installed and tax (20% off right now) = $723
Software - installed and tax (20% off right now) = $723
(total with tax for both: $1615)
4.10 diff - installed and tax (20% off right now) = $3789

Total upgrade cost tax in, installed: 5,405 by my estimates.

I still have a question on whether the software works on the Competion package due to the modified Sport Plus setting changes - I have to email Dinan...

Question - is it worth $5k? H Bomb and Studntloan (and others)?
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      05-12-2010, 08:08 PM   #51
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i just took my car out for a nice ride. you can keep your graphs and science project bc the diff is MMMazing!! love it.

to anyone considering the mod i would suggest taking a ride in one or spending some time in one bf you say no based on what is on a graph or science project. no offense to anyone

i am 100% happy with it and i am in break in still, can't wait till my 1200 miles are over
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      05-12-2010, 08:11 PM   #52
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i have all the stuff listed below and in my op the midpipe and muffler combo and the diff are the 2 that impressed me the most. i guess you could do the midpipe by itself but with the muffler added is just the icing on the cake. the car sounds amazing and the power increase was awesome and no drone

if i could do it all over again and only pick 2 i would get the midpipe and muffler and the diff

hope that helps, any questions feel free to ask. i have had 3 Dinan cars and put high miles on all of them and never had any isssues, great company to deal with except there rebate program is slow as hell. reg sales like the 20% off are the ones to catch

i would prob do the stage 1 susp instead of the pulley if i could do it over, the susp is my next thing while it is 20% off

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Originally Posted by DaFish View Post
thanks you and H Bomb and Studntloan - the people that have this mod - I am doing it... and I haven't even got my car yet. I will break in the motor and the 4.10 diff at the same time....

I asked my sales guy for a price on the 4.10 diff, the Dinan software (raises red line) and the dinan pulley. I think all of that comes to:

Pulley - installed and tax (20% off right now) = $723
Software - installed and tax (20% off right now) = $723
(total with tax for both: $1615)
4.10 diff - installed and tax (20% off right now) = $3789

Total upgrade cost tax in, installed: 5,405 by my estimates.

I still have a question on whether the software works on the Competion package due to the modified Sport Plus setting changes - I have to email Dinan...

Question - is it worth $5k? H Bomb and Studntloan (and others)?
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      05-12-2010, 11:17 PM   #53
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i just took my car out for a nice ride. you can keep your graphs and science project bc the diff is MMMazing!! love it.
Your unwillingness to accept that science and engineering actually work is really unfortunate. What century are we living in? If you read the thread over carefully that I referred you to you would learn a lot. I am not saying there is anything wrong with going for feel. The key point is that higher FD ratios do give you improved in gear torque to the wheels. However, with the mod you get to redline quicker in each gear and then have to shift. During this shift and after (until the stock car shifts) the stock FD car will still be in the lower gear and pulling WAY harder than you in your next gear. This is the KEY tradeoff with diffs. There is no such thing as a free lunch. The "graphs" and "science project" show all of this quite nicely. The end result is with a FD mod most key performance metrics are not significantly improved (say 0-60, 1/4 mi, 0-100, 60-130), some may be slightly better, some slightly worse and that is A FACT. Again IN GEAR results will generally be improved, some quite significantly.

I always try to take an approach in discussions that help folks learn a bit more. I'm intensely skeptical of many mods and I think that does a bit of a service to our forum members. Bashing science and engineering, the very things that produced your car (and every car you've owned) and even this great new diff really does not buy you increased credibility.

Last but not least, even though butt dynos inevitably mislead folks, I don't think you are being misled in what you feel in your car. Of course you can imagine what anyone should really ask for - careful measurements of specific performance gains (or losses) before and after such a mod. I know if I was going to drop $4k I'd certainly want to run the simulations and see some actual tests. Someone really should do this and share the results with the forum.
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      05-12-2010, 11:40 PM   #54
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you must of took me the wrong way, i accept it an know it works quite well and i apprec the info you put out for the forum just as i am sure the rest of the members do

i was not bashing what you were saying or the info you posted i simply said basically i don't care what it says i love the diff.

and just as the bold text you put in your post, those are things i don't really care about. i didn't buy this car for 0-60 or 60-100 or etc etc. for the type of driving i do this diff is perfect, or for factual purposes should i say feels perfect

and to be honest this is an internet forum i am not looking to buy any credibilty i could really care less what anyone thinks of me

i am not misleading anyone, a member asked for feedback from anyone that had it and i gave mine. i don't claim to be an expert or a tech or anything just a car nut and i gave my op on the diff that is all

i don't know who paid 4k but i def didn't. i wouldn't have got this diff if it was that much. it is cool and i like it but i don't think i would of paid 4k

i know there is science and all that and accept it just fine, at the end of the day i like the diff and i think it was worth it and a nice mod for the car. is it for everyone?? no. that is for the person to decide

it just seems whoever has the diff and says they like it, you try to prove how it is not worth it etc, or to try and prevent others from getting it. the info is there i say let the person decide from the info and reviews and go from there, i don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this.

thank you for your info you have provided the forum i am sure it has helped many.

cheers

H





Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Your unwillingness to accept that science and engineering actually work is really unfortunate. What century are we living in? If you read the thread over carefully that I referred you to you would learn a lot. I am not saying there is anything wrong with going for feel. The key point is that higher FD ratios do give you improved in gear torque to the wheels. However, with the mod you get to redline quicker in each gear and then have to shift. During this shift and after (until the stock car shifts) the stock FD car will still be in the lower gear and pulling WAY harder than you in your next gear. This is the KEY tradeoff with diffs. There is no such thing as a free lunch. The "graphs" and "science project" show all of this quite nicely. The end result is with a FD mod most key performance metrics are not significantly improved (say 0-60, 1/4 mi, 0-100, 60-130), some may be slightly better, some slightly worse and that is A FACT. Again IN GEAR results will generally be improved, some quite significantly.

I always try to take an approach in discussions that help folks learn a bit more. I'm intensely skeptical of many mods and I think that does a bit of a service to our forum members. Bashing science and engineering, the very things that produced your car (and every car you've owned) and even this great new diff really does not buy you increased credibility.

Last but not least, even though butt dynos inevitably mislead folks, I don't think you are being misled in what you feel in your car. Of course you can imagine what anyone should really ask for - careful measurements of specific performance gains (or losses) before and after such a mod. I know if I was going to drop $4k I'd certainly want to run the simulations and see some actual tests. Someone really should do this and share the results with the forum.
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      05-13-2010, 12:32 AM   #55
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I think it's good to have opinions from both sides. People that are on the fence can weigh the positive reviews with the technical information and make their decision. I've driven cars with the FD mod and BOTH of you are correct. The car is actually slower than before but it FEELS faster.

IMO it really depends on how you drive your car. If you only shift at 3-5k rpm all the time anyways then your car will FEEL a lot faster. However, if you are redlining your car then everything swamp2 mentioned will happen. It's a fun mod but if you ask me if its worth it I'd say 50-50
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      05-13-2010, 09:03 AM   #56
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I think it's good to have opinions from both sides. People that are on the fence can weigh the positive reviews with the technical information and make their decision. I've driven cars with the FD mod and BOTH of you are correct. The car is actually slower than before but it FEELS faster.

IMO it really depends on how you drive your car. If you only shift at 3-5k rpm all the time anyways then your car will FEEL a lot faster. However, if you are redlining your car then everything swamp2 mentioned will happen. It's a fun mod but if you ask me if its worth it I'd say 50-50
Now that is a good post and I agree with both too ... but, H Bomb's FEEL on the mod resonates with me more. My butt dyno could car less about the printed out 0-60 time... 90% of the time, I won't be red lining the car... like ALL of us. I will be in city traffic and the usable RPM will be 3-5k. When I can red line it, I will lose very little with a 4.10 diff, and because I won't have the stock diff side by side, I won't even know what I am missing....

I posted the 4k price. Dinan 4.10 pricing is posted on their web site - and I think I get 20% off, with taxes and installed 4.7 hours @ $135/hour at the dealer (for Dinan).

Labor Hours 4.7

Price $3399.00 (this doesn't include labour cost or tax... I calculate: 4.10 diff - installed and tax (20% off right now) = $3789

H Bomb/Studnloan, how much did you pay for the 4.10 diff (was it Dinan?) - total... all in with tax/labour... and where did you get it?

I already overpaid for the car, I sure don't want to do that for the mods... and Canadian prices are just 10k or more than the US prices for the M3 - we get screwed... the only excuse the dealers can come up with is that the US buys more cars so they get a discount... but 10k WTF.... I'd drive down to NY to get this done and have a beer with you !

Thanks
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      05-13-2010, 09:24 AM   #57
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i had it installed at dinan and the final price was about 3300 inlcuding labor
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      05-13-2010, 10:21 AM   #58
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i forgot you were in CAD yeah everything is more up there. i got mine when they were cheaper i just installed it recently. i kinda was told it was gonna go up so i bought it then so out the door i was about 3k
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      05-13-2010, 10:45 AM   #59
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Quote:
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you must of took me the wrong way, i accept it an know it works quite well and i apprec the info you put out for the forum just as i am sure the rest of the members do
...
Cool, good post, I think that puts us pretty well on the same page. Thanks for all of the clarifications.
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      05-13-2010, 01:51 PM   #60
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i forgot you were in CAD yeah everything is more up there. i got mine when they were cheaper i just installed it recently. i kinda was told it was gonna go up so i bought it then so out the door i was about 3k
Hi, my sales guy just called me with an update - and it isn't good....

1) Dinan 4.10 Diff of course isn't covered by the 20% off sale.... all in = $4798
2) Dinan High flow intake: all in = 1393
3) Dinan pulley all in = 897
4) Dinan software all in = 910
5) Dinan exhaust all in = 2900

I think I could live with 1 kidney if I could get 5k for it....

H Bomb - what would you do? I really want the diff and that has the break in period that I could do when the car is breaking in when I pick it up.

The exhaust maybe too loud for my wife.... she has to go in it, so I am going on Monday to drive a DCT car with all this (except the diff) the dealership owner has one....

Question: will the intake (stupid amount of money), pulley and software give me the same pull as the diff?

The pulley, software and intake has no break in period... so I could do that down the road.

The diff, pulley, intake, software - no exhaust is $7800 all in.

basically I don't want to spend any more than 5k that puts the car at over $90k Canadian.... I may pass a hat around...

OR should I do nothing - drive the car for a bit and then upgrade slowly - the danger is I don't do anything.

I am bummed out.... Help !
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      05-13-2010, 03:09 PM   #61
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the 20% does apply for the diff, and that price installed is crazy, for the amount of money being spent i would go with eisnmann but thats just imo
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      05-13-2010, 08:17 PM   #62
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Hi, my sales guy just called me with an update - and it isn't good....
...
I am bummed out.... Help !
The car really is damn nice with absolutely no mods. For me the DCT is probably the best feature of the car next to the engine.

Keep in mind Dinan is just about the most expensive aftermarket stuff you can get for an M3. Sure you get a warranty but it is not even close to worth it to me. It is not the best parts either, good IMO, but not the best. If what you want is purely more performance (i.e. more power) consider a package of items from some folks like AA, Rogue, Fabspeed, Gintani, Vorsteiner, etc. You'll get such a larger bang for your buck. Also if $ is a big factor drop the diff.
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      05-13-2010, 08:27 PM   #63
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The car really is damn nice with absolutely no mods. For me the DCT is probably the best feature of the car next to the engine.

Keep in mind Dinan is just about the most expensive aftermarket stuff you can get for an M3. Sure you get a warranty but it is not even close to worth it to me. It is not the best parts either, good IMO, but not the best. If what you want is purely more performance (i.e. more power) consider a package of items from some folks like AA, Rogue, Fabspeed, Gintani, Vorsteiner, etc. You'll get such a larger bang for your buck. Also if $ is a big factor drop the diff.
Going from a 335 to a M3 - maybe I should just drive it for a year eh - before spending 5k+

Thanks for the sanity check - I haven't even got the damn thing yet either...
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      05-13-2010, 09:05 PM   #64
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Going from a 335 to a M3 - maybe I should just drive it for a year eh - before spending 5k+

Thanks for the sanity check - I haven't even got the damn thing yet either...
Personally I'd highly recommend Powerchip for the tune. If you are going to get a tune, you might as well go with the one that in the general consensus of this forum seems to offer the most gains (I'm sure other tunes are very close, like ESS and GIAC, but vendor claims and opinion seems to show Dinan is definitely a step down).

Do the tune, air filter, crank pulley and exhaust first (are you looking at a full exhaust? If not you're just buying sound so you could remove it from the list). These mods are actually adding power and torque, more so than the in-gear torque you'd get with the 4.10 FD. Then assess whether you really want the diff. If you really want to save money, consider a primary cat delete instead of an expensive exhaust system - results for me have been excellent, I'm publishing up some test data soon.

Also on the Dinan air filter, honestly this is a 15 minute DIY install - don't pay ~$400 to get that installed.
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      05-14-2010, 10:58 AM   #65
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i had it installed at dinan and the final price was about 3300 inlcuding labor
At a local dinan certified dealer or at dinan out in CA? Seems like a great price including labor.
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      05-14-2010, 01:50 PM   #66
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at a local dinan dealer, that includes shipping and diff fluid, they really charge you for everything lol, but if anyone is near ct or ny im sure i can hook anyone up
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