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      03-19-2010, 04:04 PM   #1
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Clearing the air about G-Power's SK2 kits (once and for all)

Perhaps the title of this post is wishful thinking, but I wanted to give an account of what actually happened since I was involved with supplying the kits for both cars. It seems some people felt the need to throw G-Power under the bus a while back in order to settle a personal dispute with other forum members. Since the misinformation being spread around the boards has gotten out of control, I would like to give a clear account of what happened with both of G-Power's US test cars and clear up any remaining confusion about the reliability of G-Power's E9X M3 SK2 supercharger kits. Please note, this has nothing to do with the SK1 systems or any SK2 systems running outside of the US.

Iíve been an importer of ASA supercharger products since 2002 and have a close working relationship with the owners of ASA/G-Power (these companies merged not too long ago). I don't sell or develop products that I wouldn't install on my own personal cars, hence I've always tested ASA's (and now G-Power's) products on my own cars (whether it was an E46 330, E46 M3, E63 M6 or E92 M3). I do this to verify the quality of the products I develop, import and distribute. I can assure you that the hardware and software of G-Power's M3 production kits are not an issue at all. If there was something inherently wrong with the product, every engine would have given up the ghost by now. Clearly, thatís not the case since over 100 kits have been installed on E9X M3s around the world over the past 2 years (most of them in Europe, the UK and the UAE). Below is a pic of my current setup.



With respect to the E9X S65 SK2 supercharger system that ASA/G-Power developed for the US market, I purchased an E92 M3 back in January 09 to test it out and get an idea of the quality, reliability and overall performance (Iím also running their bi-kompressor system on my M6 and have not had any issues with it whatsoever). As of now, the M3 has about 9,000 miles on the clock with the SK2 kit and put down ~ 480WHP on 91 AKI and ~ 545WHP on 100 AKI @ 0.5bar of boost (about 7.5psi). G-Powerís new 91 AKI program has yielded additional gains of 20-30WHP in Germany and should be good for 500WHP+ on a Dynojet (Iíll be able to verify this once I flash the map I currently have with their latest 91 AKI file). I know 9K miles doesnít sound like much, but these havenít been ďbabiedĒ miles in the least. So far, I have not experienced any reliability issues nor an engine failure. The car has been running flawlessly and recently did a LA => Frisco => LA test run without a hitch (roughly 800 mile roundtrip).



Now to the 2 cars that experienced engine failures, as many of you know, the first car belongs to Josh Shokri (tightie) and was boosted in April 09. Josh received a large discount on his SK2 kit and knew full well that his car was going to be one of the first "test mules". Part of the deal included him receiving various hardware and software upgrades throughout the testing process (including larger superchargers, different intake systems and software updates). The second car belonged to Jon Martin and was boosted in May. He also understood his car was a "tester" and would be used to evaluate the kit under different fuel grades, different compressor sizes and different software programs with more aggressive timing tables (he was also fully sponsored by G-Power). I know Josh has voiced his displeasure at times about the service he received; all I will say is there were a lot of people involved and communication did break down at times. Some of his qualms are valid and I donít intend to say that everything was always handled as it should have been, but at the end of the day these were test mules and both cars were fully repaired on G-Powerís tab (that should say something about G-Power as a company).

As with any new product, there are always going to be "bugs" that need to be worked out, especially when dealing with different types of fuel. In the US, the main problem is fuel quality and octane availability. It's no secret that America is known for having some of the worst fuel in the world. Whether employed by BMW or a tuner like G-Power, this always creates challenges for engineers when developing high-compression engines and forced induction applications. G-Power does have access to 95 RON (91 AKI) in Europe, but they still wanted to see how different the actual fuel quality was and how that would affect the programming and boost settings they have calibrated for European cars vs. US cars.

Essentially, they wanted to see what the highest limits were on the lowest common denominator of US fuel (91 AKI). They now have their answer. While nobody wants to experience an engine failure, this is sometimes the only way to know where the actual limit lies. When BMW blows an engine at the test track or even at the race track, it doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing. You canít fault a company for simply pushing the limits and standing behind their product in the process. If anything, they should be commended for it, especially since the customers involved had their engines repaired at no cost to them.

As any engineer will tell you, failures are a necessary part of the development process. This is why people shouldn't view this as a "negative", but merely the result of normal testing procedures designed to push the limits of boost, timing and fuel octane on 2 US test cars. This information has now been used to dial in the US production kits with the correct timing and boost settings that will be well within the failure threshold regardless of the fuel octane being used. If these were actual production kits that blew up dozens of engines, I would agree with the harsh skepticism that some have erroneously levied on G-Power's supercharger kit, but that's not what's going on here.

So why did these engines fail? The answer is simple: too much spark advance, not enough octane. As has been discussed ad-nauseum in various threads, the MSS60/65 engine management system on the S65/S85 engines employs a different type of knock-control system, one based on measuring ion-flow across the sparkplugís electrode, as opposed to one based on piezoelectric accelerometers that measure the actual vibration or ďshockĒ of detonation (like the type of knock sensors found on previous generation M engines). In essence, the spark plug serves a dual purpose in this engine. It not only provides the spark necessary to drive combustion, but also helps the ECU determine whether knock is occurring based on the level of ionization produced inside the combustion chamber. It does this by applying voltage to the plug when it's not being fired during the power stroke.

This type of knock detection system was never designed to work in conjunction with forced induction and can fail to work properly if subjected to high combustion temperatures for an extended period of time or under heavy loads (such as the track or dyno). Due to this, the ECUís ability to sense knock can be compromised on low octane fuel since combustion chamber temperatures rise significantly as more air is injected into the engine. This in turn can adversely affect the level of ionic current seen by the ECU across the sparkplug's electrode and cause it to stop working properly. If the DME doesnít detect knock properly, it will fail to retard timing enough to prevent piston failure. Since low octane fuel such as 91 AKI has a higher propensity to pre-ignite under higher temps/pressures, detonation can occur if the engine is pushed continuously under heavy loads (which Jonís and Joshís cars were).

As a side note, I understand thereís a debate surrounding the use of methanol and FI on the S65 and whether that caused Joshís engine failure. I canít say for certain if that contributed to the piston damage, the juryís still out as to the effects of methanol on ion-sensing knock detection systems, but G-Power has told me their contacts within BMW have verified this as a no-no, especially with forced induction. Until there is hard scientific evidence to support this (not just hearsay), the debate will surely rage on as to the effect of meth injection on boosted S65s. Personally, I wouldn't run it with 91 AKI, not on this engine. There are simply too many question marks surrounding meth and ion-sensing knock detection. I'd rather run 100 AKI each time (which is what I've been doing).

For those interested, hereís some more info on this type of knock detection system:
http://www.fs.isy.liu.se/~larer/Projects/main.html
http://************/m574m3
http://www.dynotechusa.com/docs/spar...ionization.pdf

Using the data from the 2 test cars, G-Power has now developed a new software update which limits the amount of spark advance to a safe level (regardless of the fuel octane being used) and richens up the fuel mixture in order to reduce combustion temps even further (as an added failsafe). You might ask why didnít G-Power do this from the beginning? The answer is they wanted to develop a software program that could be used with various types of octane, from 91 AKI to 100+ AKI. This way a customer could take advantage of being able to run both pump and race gas. With the new software update, race gas will not yield a major performance gain as timing is limited to a safe level designed for low-octane fuel only. Customers can still request the other program, but running anything less than 94 AKI will not be recommended as it will interfere with proper knock detection if subjected to heavy loads for an extended period of time.

I know people have their loyalties to various brands and will have their opinions (right or wrong) regardless of what I say, so I'm not going to sit here day after day and try to "pump" G-Powerís products like a cheerleading shill. However, I will defend them when I know from personal experience that when the right type of fuel is used, their kits do not pose a danger in any way and are as bulletproof as can be. This is backed up by the cars running in Europe, the UK and the UAE (as well as my own personal car). Iíve been on these boards (and others) long enough to know that flame wars serve no purpose. Iím sure some will try to pick apart what Iíve written here, but I have no intention of getting into a pissing contest about which kit is better (thatís why you donít see me post very often). Iím simply stating what occurred since I was actually involved and dealt with the shop and customers that were part of this project last year.

In the end, Iíd rather prove the kit works by putting miles on it myself (both track and street) and not waste time engaging in needless banter online. There is a AAA Dragway event open to the public on April 3rd in Fontana. I intend to run the M3 there and provide real world ľ mile timeslips. Other cars should take advantage of this as well. Even if youíre not confident in your ability to run a solid ET, posting a solid trap-speed is just as valuable. While VBox data is useful as a secondary benchmark, 0-400M is what people ultimately want to know and is IMO the primary metric to use when gauging a carís straight-line performance (whether ET, trap-speed or both).
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      03-19-2010, 04:19 PM   #2
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Great post, anybody running FI or thinking about FI should read this carefully
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      03-19-2010, 04:40 PM   #3
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That's a great summary. Thanks~

So is there any internal differences between the ROW and the US s/c kit then? Say if I bought a kit from Japan, will I be able to install it safely on a US-spec car?
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      03-19-2010, 05:11 PM   #4
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I for one do not believe one word that comes out of Samir's mouth. I will do everything in my power to show the E9x members what kind of business you are running. I have never been so disrespected by a individual or company in this aftermarket business. I have tons of emails to back it up, heres one of my last emails with the oh so kind Samir. (Technik - Gpower USA)



From: Rennsport Inc. <rennsport99@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:40 AM



I see youíre still behaving like a complete idiot. I think by now the hole youíve dug for yourself could reach to the center of the earth. I never met you prior to this, I didnít organize the sale. Trust me, if I had, I would have realized the living nightmare I was getting myself into and never never never sold you anything, let alone a prototype kit. If you contact Chris or myself one more time, we will withdraw any sort of warranty coverage and you can pursue this in court, understand? I donít care what you do on the boards, itís already been soiled by you and Jon, so do you really think I give a shit at this point? If you hadnít tried to get Chris to stop doing business with me, I would have sympathy for you, but I have NONE, ZERO, NOT A FUCKING OUNCE. As far as Iím concerned, you donít deserve anything. You can threaten me with whatever you want, as I said, one more email to Chris or myself and your car will fall into the blackhole that is Autotalent, believe that.


I have tons, and tons of emails to support this matter. I'll tell you right now, if you treated me like a normal customer and didn't disrespect the living shit out of me, I wouldn't have done this.

There is alot more where this came from.
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      03-19-2010, 05:16 PM   #5
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Thanks for clearing somethings up.

Do you run 100 octane all the time or a mixture?
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      03-19-2010, 05:22 PM   #6
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Oh, this is gonna be good...
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      03-19-2010, 05:27 PM   #7
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Ohh shit...



(first page on a soon-to-be-epic thread! )
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      03-19-2010, 05:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tightie View Post
I for one do not believe one word that comes out of Samir's mouth. I will do everything in my power to show the E9x members what kind of business you are running. I have never been so disrespected by a individual or company in this aftermarket business. I have tons of emails to back it up, heres one of my last emails with the oh so kind Samir. (Technik - Gpower USA)



From: Rennsport Inc. <rennsport99@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:40 AM



I see youíre still behaving like a complete idiot. I think by now the hole youíve dug for yourself could reach to the center of the earth. I never met you prior to this, I didnít organize the sale. Trust me, if I had, I would have realized the living nightmare I was getting myself into and never never never sold you anything, let alone a prototype kit. If you contact Chris or myself one more time, we will withdraw any sort of warranty coverage and you can pursue this in court, understand? I donít care what you do on the boards, itís already been soiled by you and Jon, so do you really think I give a shit at this point? If you hadnít tried to get Chris to stop doing business with me, I would have sympathy for you, but I have NONE, ZERO, NOT A FUCKING OUNCE. As far as Iím concerned, you donít deserve anything. You can threaten me with whatever you want, as I said, one more email to Chris or myself and your car will fall into the blackhole that is Autotalent, believe that.


I have tons, and tons of emails to support this matter. I'll tell you right now, if you treated me like a normal customer and didn't disrespect the living shit out of me, I wouldn't have done this.

There is alot more where this came from.
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      03-19-2010, 05:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
Ohh shit...



(first page on a soon-to-be-epic thread! )
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC kid View Post
Oh, this is gonna be good...
Pass the popcorn, gents

Also, IBTL
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      03-19-2010, 05:34 PM   #10
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      03-19-2010, 05:46 PM   #11
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      03-19-2010, 05:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
Ohh shit...



(first page on a soon-to-be-epic thread! )
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC kid View Post
Oh, this is gonna be good...
Pass the butter
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      03-19-2010, 05:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technik View Post
...It's no secret that America is known for having some of the worst fuel in the world. Got it, so it's America's fault really.

There is a AAA Dragway event open to the public on April 3rd in Fontana. I intend to run the M3 there and provide real world ľ mile timeslips. It'd be nice if any and all other blown e9xM's would join him there.

You canít fault a company for simply pushing the limits and standing behind their product in the process. If anything, they should be commended for it, especially since the customers involved had their engines repaired at no cost to them. Wrong, time costs money. You've also got it backwards here. G-Power should've destroyed their OWN motors, develop the fix, THEN released the product to the public.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tightie View Post
...one more email to Chris or myself and your car will fall into the blackhole that is Autotalent, believe that.
ROFLMFAO..an instant classic.
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      03-19-2010, 06:03 PM   #14
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technik I do not get why G Power would fully sponsor the one customer and partly the other? and since you the agent and have a brand to protect why did you not use your own vehicle to test until the motor broke and what kind of test where conducted cause it sounds to me that if the cars where sent out and if they didn't break so far so good?

I have been negotiating with G Power for a SK2 kit for my M5 and they are so cautious that I am highly surprised they would allow something like this. They will not even allow a company that writes OEM software to touch the car and insist in doing installations themselves even if it means flying the techs around the globe or loosing the deal due to their massive fitment fees.
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      03-19-2010, 06:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Guys, stop it with the popcorn crap. Let Samir answer the charges.
Relax pencil or we'll get that petition going to strip you of your beloved title...

No one likes a referee who blows the whistle at every single opportunity, let 'em play ball.
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      03-19-2010, 06:10 PM   #16
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I think the popcorn was a joke as he used it himself don't get offensive

Regardless if this is true or not, Technik needs to respond. Josh has all the right to post up as he is
And I find it very immature to take a stab at Autotalent like that. Don't let them put you down Tightie
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      03-19-2010, 06:31 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tightie View Post
I for one do not believe one word that comes out of Samir's mouth. I will do everything in my power to show the E9x members what kind of business you are running. I have never been so disrespected by a individual or company in this aftermarket business. I have tons of emails to back it up, heres one of my last emails with the oh so kind Samir. (Technik - Gpower USA)



From: Rennsport Inc. <rennsport99@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:40 AM



I see youíre still behaving like a complete idiot. I think by now the hole youíve dug for yourself could reach to the center of the earth. I never met you prior to this, I didnít organize the sale. Trust me, if I had, I would have realized the living nightmare I was getting myself into and never never never sold you anything, let alone a prototype kit. If you contact Chris or myself one more time, we will withdraw any sort of warranty coverage and you can pursue this in court, understand? I donít care what you do on the boards, itís already been soiled by you and Jon, so do you really think I give a shit at this point? If you hadnít tried to get Chris to stop doing business with me, I would have sympathy for you, but I have NONE, ZERO, NOT A FUCKING OUNCE. As far as Iím concerned, you donít deserve anything. You can threaten me with whatever you want, as I said, one more email to Chris or myself and your car will fall into the blackhole that is Autotalent, believe that.


I have tons, and tons of emails to support this matter. I'll tell you right now, if you treated me like a normal customer and didn't disrespect the living shit out of me, I wouldn't have done this.

There is alot more where this came from.
From the email, it sounds to me as though you and your sidekick threw G-Power under a bus as soon as the engine went boom. You knew you had a prototype on your car and that there would be issues, yet all you saw was the discount you were getting for being the test dummy in the US and the publicity you got from that magazine article. You got exactly what you deserved. Oh and congrats on being the first owner with a S/C M3, hope it was worth it. You're lucky they replaced your engine.
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      03-19-2010, 07:11 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMorish View Post
Pass the butter
This is gonna be interesting
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      03-19-2010, 07:23 PM   #19
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this will be locked soon.....

It does sound a little odd to me that GPower chose to test on customers cars blowing engines rather than their own.... but I only know what gets posted on the forums...
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      03-19-2010, 07:31 PM   #20
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      03-19-2010, 07:34 PM   #21
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      03-19-2010, 07:52 PM   #22
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well, at least tightie has not been treated as a customer should be. as for G-Power they are Infinitas and produced great and reiable BMW SC kits for years, as others do as well.
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